FORMULA 1 Emirats grosser preis von Deutschland 2018Formula 1 

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Jimlaad43

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Penalties:
Brazil: IIRC, Massa kept cutting the final corner by crossing the pit entry line too much. It seemed like an unfair penalty at the time, but he was taking the mick.
Austria: Crossing the line on exit is a big no-no, so penalty.
Russia: I don't remember that one
Baku (Europe): This one was specifically mentioned for safety reasons before the race. The pit entry line was very heavily painted and drivers were told they'd get a penalty if they went over it before the race.
Spain: Wehrlein went past the bollard and then crossed the grass into the pits.

Reprimands are usually given if the crossing of the line was "safe", ie it didn't endanger anyone else or was done under safety car. Penalties are for either "unsafe" times of it happening, or if it was specifically mentioned before. Remember Raikkonen did the same thing as Hamilton in Europe 2007 without a penalty.
 
6,063
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BALD_GYE
I’m saying that if the stewards keep up this subjective application of simple sporting rules, they could find themselves in a situation similar to Suzuka ‘89. The fact it happened 30 years ago doesn’t make the subjective application of basic sporting regs which decided a championship irrelevant.

Ok, I had a go at giving you an example. Can you give me an example from another sport where officials took 3 hours, post contest, to make a decision regarding an infraction of a basic and clearly written sporting regulation?

Rugby officials, will after international games re-watch footage and then penalise players appropriately.
 
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Rugby officials, will after international games re-watch footage and then penalise players appropriately.
For sporting, or non sporting infractions? Non sporting infractions, like unsportsman-like conduct, that gets reviewed after the fact all the time. I’m looking for an example of an infraction of a simple sporting regulation, something like out of bounds, or off-side.
 
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BALD_GYE
For sporting, or non sporting infractions? Non sporting infractions, like unsportsman-like conduct, that gets reviewed after the fact all the time. I’m looking for an example of an infraction of a simple sporting regulation, something like out of bounds, or off-side.
I don't really care about what specific example you need to validate you're stance.
Motorsport and field sports are not very comparable aside from the competition and physical requirements, so stop trying to use them as an example.

In this instance, of you saying the stewards just 'make it up as they go along' regarding exiting the pit entry, you where wrong.
 
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BALD_GYE
Point is, taking 3 hours to come to that decision is too long. It leaves a lot of room for speculation.
And?
Speculate all you want it doesn't affect the stewarding process. I'd rather them take their time, see things from every angle and come to a proper decision, rather than just rush out a ruling to keep the people with short attention spans happy...
 
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MarcoM1972
And?
Speculate all you want it doesn't affect the stewarding process. I'd rather them take their time, see things from every angle and come to a proper decision, rather than just rush out a ruling to keep the people with short attention spans happy...

Like they do with other decisions?
 
1,472
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Hmmm, quite the race.

Great work by Lewis. I think his ability to perform when put in a bad situation is what makes him one of the best drivers in the field (same for Vettel, Alonso when he has a worthwhile care, and maybe we'll see a few others join the list in the future). Even with the best car in the field, most of the drivers in F1 would have finished a reasonable 5-6th from where Lewis started. While he definitely has mood swings, Lewis' ability to put it together when needed is pretty astounding.

Bad day for Vettel. Conversely I was hoping we'd see Raikkonen step it up a bit. He seems more motivated this year than before, so I keep hoping he'll luck his way into a win to keep him fighting.

Didn't see much of Stappen today, but Red Bull seems to remain the hungry third hippo in the sport - able to win in a very select number of conditions (normally when leaders crash out). I wish they were a little more competitive so we could have a genuine three-way competition. Poor Ricciardo.

Bottas was surprisingly good today. I was impressed he was able to minimize the time he lost to Vettel after the start (keeping it within 3-4 seconds where it would often be 7-8). I approve of the team orders at the end, because while he had better tires and a good jump on Lewis, I do think he would have hindered them both had he gotten in front. I don't believe he had Lewis' pace even with slightly fresher tires. I think he would have ended up pushing Hamilton back toward Raikkonen so I think it was a good call. I think Bottas is a really good driver, but I haven't seen any sparks of greatness from him (yet?).

Nice to see rain show up....and I'll close with "Full wets on Gasly!?" :D
 
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HamiltonMP427
Umm, when it comes to the white lines painted on the ground, it doesn’t matter what circuit they’re at. Crossing a line is crossing a line.

Ever watched a football match and seen an out-of-bounds call made/not made because of the stadium the game was being played in? I think not.

And if it’s “different circuit, different circumstances”, why post a list of stuff that happened at other circuits? If each circuit is treated differently, then your list has no application to the discussion.


This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say F1 shoots itself in the foot with its ridiculous appliciation of rules. The sporting rules are clear as day, you cannot cross the line, in either direction. It’s about as simple of a rule as you can get in F1, and it should have one simple penalty. Reprimand, time penalty, drive through, take your pick. Whatever you pick though, you have to apply the same penalty to everyone who brakes the rule.

This subjective application of a simple rule, taking 3 hours to decide on is a farce.

Have you ever watched another sport where officials took 3 hours, post contest, to make a ruling on a simple breach of the sporting code?

Edit: also, re all the tracks being different. We saw that earlier this year. Paul Richard warrants a 5 second time penalty for contact on lap 1, whilst Silverstone warrants a 10 second penalty the same infraction. More consistency.

While I understand @bladgye and his point of view which isn't all that bad nor necessarily wrong. I actually agree with you however, the way you're going about it makes it quite hard since these analogies aren't even remotely comparable to what you're trying to argue.

For example, Football playing fields are set to a specified dimensions and no one playing field is different from the others. It's not like Levi Stadium's out of bound lines are 2 feet wider than that of Gillette Stadium. However, if you go to Baku, the crossing of the white line means you're on the racing line while other tracks it isn't. Also we're talking about a situation where it was under caution at much slower safety car speeds.

At the end of the day I tend to agree more rules should be consistent, clear cut, and avoid ambiguity which seems to be the FIA's life long issue when ruling over F1.
 
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I don't really care about what specific example you need to validate you're stance.
Motorsport and field sports are not very comparable aside from the competition and physical requirements, so stop trying to use them as an example.

In this instance, of you saying the stewards just 'make it up as they go along' regarding exiting the pit entry, you where wrong.
You providing an example doesn’t validate my stance. My stance is that taking 3 hours, post constest, to make a decisions on a simple and clear-cut breach of a basic sporting rule, is an example of extremely poor officiating. Your inability to provide an example of this situation happening in any other sport demonstrates that this type of enforcement of basic rules is unprecedented across all top level sporting competitions. F1 is a sport, therefor it is valid to compare it to other sports, in regards to the consistency of application of basic sporting rules.


The stewards do make it up as they go. You provided a list which demonstrates just that. You’ve also said they treat each circuit differently. You are the one who has demonstrated that they make it up as they go along.

Another example of the officials making things up is for Charlie to say that there was no previous precedent, when you clearly provided a list full of precedent. The fact Lewis went right to left, as opposed to left to right, after the bollard is irrelevant, since the sporting regs specifically state that crossing the white line after the bollard, in either direction, is against the rules.


Like I said from the start, this episode demonstrates that the stewards are either incompetent (taking 3 hours to make a simple yes/no decision), or involved in a conspiracy. Personally, I’m inclined to belive it’s the former.


Edit: @LMSCorvetteGT2
While I understand @bladgye and his point of view which isn't all that bad nor necessarily wrong. I actually agree with you however, the way you're going about it makes it quite hard since these analogies aren't even remotely comparable to what you're trying to argue.

For example, Football playing fields are set to a specified dimensions and no one playing field is different from the others. It's not like Levi Stadium's out of bound lines are 2 feet wider than that of Gillette Stadium. However, if you go to Baku, the crossing of the white line means you're on the racing line while other tracks it isn't. Also we're talking about a situation where it was under caution at much slower safety car speeds.

At the end of the day I tend to agree more rules should be consistent, clear cut, and avoid ambiguity which seems to be the FIA's life long issue when ruling over F1.
I’ll agree with you that specific analogies are tough to make, but I really don’t think it’s a massive stretch when comparing instances of, “did he cross the line, yes or no?”.

That’s a good point about all football pitches being he same. I’d counter that though, with the fact that every single MLB stadium is different. Regardless of the playing areas being different sizes and shapes from one stadium to the next, basic inforcement of “did he/it go across the line” is uniform from one stadium to the next.

The only time special rules are brought into play is with extremely odd areas of stadiums, eg the Green Monster at Fenway Park in Boston. And even there, white painted lines are used to remove ambiguity regarding “was it in/out” in trouble areas around the Green Monster.



Regarding the incedent happening under safety car....that doesn’t make sense to me as an argument. Because it was behind the safety car, the rules can be relaxed? That seems rather counter intuitive. In life, I’ve never experience a period of hightened caution where rules are relaxed - usually it’s the opposite.

Just as a bit of an aside, and broadening the scope a bit here. We’re now at a point where behind the safety car, and on the first lap of a race - two of the most crucial and dangerous times during a race - we’re relaxing the rules for the sake of the show. To me, that seems like a terrible idea.

I fully agree that the FIA has a history of being very inconsistent and ambiguous in how it applies a variety of rules. It’s because of this history that not many people involved in the sport respect the FIA very much. Gasly questioned their consistency after Britain, most drivers agreed with him. Magnussen has repeatedly stated that rules are applied differently to back markers. Alonso has called the FI-Yay a “Yoke” on the team radio. Vettel has told Charlie to 🤬 off on the radio. In the specific cases of Alonso and Vettel, if those comments would have been made by an MLB player to an Umpire, the player would be tossed from the game emmidiately.
 
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And Rosberg managed to squeak out one undeserved championship. And he knew it and he knew he couldn't compete with Hamiltons talent so he quit.

Granted, Lewis' engine failure in Malaysia in 2016 basically gifted Rosberg that championship. Even then, that's a harsh thing to say that he didn't deserve the championship. Rosberg did a stellar job keeping the pressure on Lewis by winning the majority of the opening races of the season. Even toward the end of the season when he couldn't find the answer for Lewis' comeback, he still managed to keep his consistency and bring home points that kept him in the lead to win the title. So I wouldn't call that undeserved. I'd say he worked hard and he earned it...with a little bit of good "luck". I do agree however that Rosberg retiring from the sport the way he did does make one wonders if he in fact knew he wouldn't be able to keep performing and competing at that level. But hey, there's nothing wrong with retiring while you are at the top.

Nice to see rain show up....and I'll close with "Full wets on Gasly!?" :D

That clip of him going off the traxk while on the full wet was hilarious.. they should seriously question whoever thought that was a good idea :D
 

TenEightyOne

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That clip of him going off the traxk while on the full wet was hilarious.. they should seriously question whoever thought that was a good idea :D

Somebody with nothing to lose on an outside chance... t'was ever thus. Just think, we could be sitting here now congratulating Gasly on an incredible Vettel-esque first win ;)
 
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Somebody with nothing to lose on an outside chance... t'was ever thus. Just think, we could be sitting here now congratulating Gasly on an incredible Vettel-esque first win ;)

That's very true....it would have been awesome if that gamble had paid off with the rain. What made it funny is how accurate Mercedes was at predicting how bad the rain would be and where exactly it would be on the track....even telling Lewis that they won't even need to go on the Inter...So looking at this and then watching Gasly on that Full Wet really had me rolling.
 

DaveTheStalker

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A pit lane violation that went unpunished resulting in “victory” has left a very sour taste in my mouth about Formula One and the FIA’s obvious favoritism toward one particular whiny driver.
 

TenEightyOne

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A pit lane violation that went unpunished resulting in “victory” has left a very sour taste in my mouth about Formula One and the FIA’s obvious favoritism toward one particular whiny driver.

Vettel? How so? I presume you're talking about the precedent for Hamilton's punishment?
 
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You might enjoy this;

37652755_1815417658565977_394952599696048128_n.jpg
Not to reopen the convo, but out of curiousity, would you know where I could find those stats on an official F1 or FIA website?
 
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HamiltonMP427
A pit lane violation that went unpunished resulting in “victory” has left a very sour taste in my mouth about Formula One and the FIA’s obvious favoritism toward one particular whiny driver.

Of course you didn't check the thread to see that these things have gone unpunished plenty times before and those that were reprimanded were done such because they were similar to the situation seen at this gp. Also considering that same posts shows two occasions where Lewis has done a similar violation and got a 5 second penalty, hardly shows favoritism during a third one over these past 6 seasons.

Usually when I see some one cry favoritism about a driver not getting a penalty, usually has some disdain or irrational bias against that driver to begin with. And considering you choice of words for him in your rant, I would say it's safe to say you more than dislike Hamilton. Again can't understand how some people can go through spectating and have no neutral toward any drivers racing. Even in a post PM world this is an issue, shame.
 
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Of course you didn't check the thread to see that these things have gone unpunished plenty times before and those that were reprimanded were done such because they were similar to the situation seen at this gp. Also considering that same posts shows two occasions where Lewis has done a similar violation and got a 5 second penalty, hardly shows favoritism during a third one over these past 6 seasons.

Usually when I see some one cry favoritism about a driver not getting a penalty, usually has some disdain or irrational bias against that driver to begin with. And considering you choice of words for him in your rant, I would say it's safe to say you more than dislike Hamilton. Again can't understand how some people can go through spectating and have no neutral toward any drivers racing. Even in a post PM world this is an issue, shame.
Post PM world....:lol:....y’all must’ve had quite some celebration the day he decided to leave :P. I miss PM...didn’t always agree with him, but always enjoyed talking with him. He was the first person on the motorsport forum that was friendly to me, just helpful posts without trying to prove or gloat that knew more than me.