FORMULA 1 Emirats grosser preis von Deutschland 2018Formula 1

[MarcoM]

Because he would have to queue up behind Bottas in the pits.

Oh yeah great to see that you like those team orders. Destroys the sport.

 

[baldgye]

Because he would have to queue up behind Bottas.

And then come out behind Bottas... Kimi would then pit and be behind them both as he was held up by the SC... so at the restart it would have been Bottas, Lewis and Kimi... Lewis would have been either allowed to fight or given the position due to the championship...

So, it wouldn't have changed anything.

 

[zzz_pt]

So rules you don’t know are being thrown out of the window?

A lot of people bringing up the Baku penalty, but those pit lanes are monumentally different. Not only that, Lewis didn’t cross the entry line, he cut over the grass after that line. And then to round it off, it was very clearly a miss-communication between the team and driver under SC conditions.
The FIA’s reprimand was fair and balanced. The team didn’t do it to trick another team and didn’t do it dangerously.


To be honest, a time penalty after the fact would be massively unfair. The race ended with Lewis 4.5 seconds ahead of Bottas, who would have dropped back as he had a gap to Kimi. If they where going to penalise him, it would/should have come in the race and even then would have been negated by team orders/Lewis banging out fastest laps after fastest laps.


I think the FIA gets a lot of ****, but I think for the most part they are pretty fair and pretty good. It's so hard to get racing rules/enforcement right. Every situation is different and every race unique and it's easy to throw criticism (as I have too), but I think they're doing pretty well compared to most series

I don't know what penalty should he get because the stewards are unpredictable and inconsistent, as we've seen for the last few years. Not because I don't know a rule has been broken.

Every race and situation is different depending on who's braking the the rules. My impression is that if it's a Sauber, no problem in giving out a penalty. If it's a Merc or Ferrari, well, then there's a lot more leeway.

 

[TenEightyOne]

My impression is that if it's a Sauber, no problem in giving out a penalty. If it's a Merc or Ferrari, well, then there's a lot more leeway.

The numbers don't support your impressions. 12 drivers have received licence points this year, 4 of those were from the top three teams. That seems quite an average spread to me.

Then we remember that both Ferraris have had a penalty a couple of races ago... I don't think what you're implying really stacks up.

 

[Veinz]

Oh yeah great to see that you like those team orders. Destroys the sport.

Team orders are a necessary evil, Merc would have been stupid to let them keep fighting out it so late in the race when the field is bunched up.

 

[baldgye]

Team orders are a necessary evil, Merc would have been stupid to let them keep fighting out it so late in the race when the field is bunched up.

What's funny, is that a lack of team orders kind of ruined Vettel's race... if he hadn't have been stuck behind Kimi for so long he would have had a much bigger gap to Lewis when he came out on ultra's, meaning he wouldn't have to push as much as he did

 

[Touring Mars]

I particularly enjoyed the bit where Nico Rosberg (guest commentating for Sky) was asked whether Mercedes would issue team orders and he said 'No, not this early in the season', only for Mercedes to tell Bottas to 'hold his position' about 10 milliseconds later.

 

[Veinz]

What's funny, is that a lack of team orders kind of ruined Vettel's race... if he hadn't have been stuck behind Kimi for so long he would have had a much bigger gap to Lewis when he came out on ultra's, meaning he wouldn't have to push as much as he did

True, Ferrari did it way too late. Both teams were right to do it though.

 

[baldgye]

True, both teams were right in doing it. Ferrari did it way too late though.

Yeah, once again they kind of willingly tired to throw Kimi's race away... for no obvious reason, and then let him hold up Vettel... again, for no reason. When Vettel came out of the pits with Kimi just in front of him it seemed so obvious they'd swap and cruise home to victory... but then they totally bottled it.

I don't know if that resulted in Vettel's mistake, but it really didn't help or need to happen.

 

[adb]

It was dangerous, cutting track across (probably) wet grass on slicks is dangerous, I would hate to see a penalty affect outcome of the race, but I think maybe a 3-place grid penalty would be sufficient?

 

[Jimlaad43]

If the pitlane thing was worthy of a penalty, they would have given it out in the race. There was no investigation launched despite it being an obvious "He could get a penalty for that" moment, so as soon as the flag dropped I knew they wouldn't give Hamilton a time penalty.

 

[twitcher]

Well that was entertaining, to say the least. My random thoughts on the race.


• Lewis going from 14-1, with basically zero opposition from anyone he overtook shows how broken F1 is. I’m not blaming Lewis, I’m not blaming the guys he overtook. The combination of the the two tiers of competition combined with how data driven the sport is dictates that the midfield teams must get out of Lewis’s way as soon as possible, or risk losing time. If I want to see multiclass racing, I’ll watch WEC, this kind of “racing” is not what F1 should be about.

Two races now, Germany and Britain, where Lewis has had “recovery” drives where he didn’t have to fight for position, dispite overtaking some 30+ cars. To me, that’s not motor racing.

Fingers crossed, but hopefully simplified aero combined with the elimination of DRS, along with some budget restrictions, could see this problem resolved. That’s more of a long term hope, something to aim for post 2021.


• The Bollard. Once again, race control manage to make themselves look like they’re either bumbling idiots, or involved in a conspiracy.

- the bollard and the white line mean different things from one racetrack to the next. In Baku, that move would have been illegal. At Hockenheim, it’s only a reprimand. Okay then 👍

Charlie says the Baku incedent was not on because of the relative speeds involved. Ok, so what is the cutoff speed for when crossing the white pit line after the bollard is/isn’t dangerous?

- at Hockenheim, one CANNOT drive across the grass from left to right behind the bollard, as this would be seen as a dangerous maneuver. However, one CAN drive across the grass from right to left behind the bollard, as there is nothing dangerous about that (cutting across grass to rejoin the circuit is normal in F1).

- correct me if I’m wrong, but I was always under the impression that the point of the “bollard and white line” was an extension of the pit wall. I’m not talking about the pit entry line painted on the circuit, I’m talking about the bit of line between the bollard and the start of the pit wall. At Hockenheim, the pitwall could be extended to start where the bollard is, but that would be dangerous - therefore the pitwall is moved back, and a bollard and line are used to represent the start of the pit wall. To me, this would make any crossing of the line behind the bollard, either direction, a big no no. But what do I know.

- the stories from Charlie and company seem very strange.

“The rule that most people were talking about was the one in the event notes, which says if you are entering the pits you must stay to the right of the bollard there.”

"Lewis was entering the pits, and he did stay to the right of the bollard, but then he changed his mind, obviously.”

"It's to make sure drivers don't enter or leave the pits in a dangerous way.”

"Coming into the pits, we don't want drivers diving in at the last minute – that was the reason for the bollard – but it's less clear whether it's dangerous if a driver decides to abort having already gone past a bollard which is more or less the point of no return, and crossed back the other way." - Charlie Whiting

It’s less clear that cutting across grass and rejoining the circuit in an unexpected manner is dangerous?

They don’t want guys diving IN at the last second, but they have no issue with guys diving OUT at the last second. Ok 👍

The bollard is a “point of no return”.....that you can return from......

"There is another rule in the sporting code which says the line separating the pit entry from the track may not be crossed in either direction by any car entering the pitlane. So that's why the stewards decided to call them, having thought about it carefully." - Charlie Whiting

So, there actually is a rule about going across the line after the bollard, in either directions, the stewards thought carefully about it, but decided to not act until after the race...and they settled on a reprimand, a literal slap on the wrist.

I can’t think of a single example from any other professional sport where a competitor broke a sporting rule, the officials thought carefully about it, and handed out a slap on the wrist, post-contest. Extremely unprecedented in sport. Reprimands and punishment for unsporting penalties sure, that happens all the time. But a breach of a sporting regulation that is in place for the safety of the competitors, punished by a reprimand (what was it, I’m assuming a fine?) after the contest is over....ok 👍


Some precedent regarding crossing the pit entry line after the bollard, from motorsport.com

One example where a driver was specifically penalised under that ISC rule also involved Raikkonen, in FP3 at the 2012 Canadian GP.

The Finn received a modest €2500 fine for "crossing the line at pit entry."

Felipe Massa received a drive-through in his final race for Ferrari in Brazil in 2013 for crossing the entry line when he made a stop in the race

So making a late dive into the pits is dangerous, and therefore against the rules. But precedent now says that making a late dive off of pit entry is perfectly ok, as long as you have the cash to pay the fine after the race is over. Right.

- I can’t find a direct quote from Charlie, but I have seen a lot of chatter saying that, because the incedent happened under SC, it’s no big deal. I’m fully aware that in this specific case, nothing actually dangerous happened. However, the excuse that because the SC was out, the rules can be relaxed a little bit, is one of the most insane arguments I’ve seen. Under the SC or any yellow flag condition, rules should be enforced 10x as much, and punishments should be at least double (like speeding in a construction zone).

- Again I can’t find the quote, but it’s been reported that Charlie said that one of the reasons there was only a repremand was because there was no previous precedent. I know I’m not the only one who thinks that opens a giant Pandora’s box, pretty much green lighting any unprecedented action.

What’s unprecedented about this whole event is that after such a simple and obvious infraction of the rules, the sports top official has had go to the media and blather on about why the decisions were made the way they were. Has anyone ever seen FIFA’s top official had to explain a simple out-of-bounds call?


Making mountains out of molehills, I know, but it’s going to come back to haunt the officials in a big way. Not that I think they really mind though, I don’t think the FIA really cares for the future of F1.


Article where I got the Charlie quotes from
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-precedent-hamilton-pit-entry-offence-whiting-1063082/


• I really have no idea about the whole Kimi/leclerc situation now. Kimi seems visibly frustrated with the situation, but Charles just showed that maybe he isn’t as ready as he could be. Furthermore, will marchionne’s replacement have the guts to take a risk on a young kid? We’ll see I guess.


• Caught some of Abitbol’s comments over the weekend from the pitwall. He’s now officially referring to Haas and Sauber as Ferrari’s “partners”, not “customer”. Interesting.

 

[Oswald07]

Gotta feel bad for Bottas. Hardly a second driver considering his pace. Mostly just bad luck has him as far back as he is. Understand the call from Merc, but wish they’d give Bottas a fair shot

Botas could have been attacking from the start. In stead he just follows in second. He is a second.

 

[Oswald07]

I guess "the hate" comes from the extreme arrogance that Hamilton puts on display, and his team boss does a great job on being second best arrogant in the team. Remember "the hunger" interview when he gave the reasons why he would win against Nico Rosberg? This hunger came from someone who dates Pussycat members, swims in money and records his own music in a state of the art home studio..? The Mercedes team and Hamilton seems so entitled to winning that it is natural to want to see them fail. The only seem likeable and approachable when the PR team has done their job..

Now that being said, i think that Hamilton has issues, not surprising since he hardly had any chance to live anything close to a normal life. And i am pretty certain that somewhere in there behind his defensive arrogance is a guy that can be a cool guy... The difference to Rosberg is spectacular, Rosberg does commentary with the german tv station RTL, he is relaxed and a cool dude, totally in balance with himself, today he met Hamilton, but Hamilton didn't "see him". He ignored him and looked the other way and try to avoid him

EDIT:

Thats just your bias. I don't see anything more than the self confidence of someone who has a gift then has worked very long and hard to be the best and is the best. No one thanks his team or the fans more. No one tries harder to win. Sure there is personal glory in winning, but thats what gives us a show. You want to hate him for having a lot of money or a pretty girlfriend? Your comments can't even qualify as an opinion its just the pure biased nonsense of a jealous nobody.

When you watch the movie Rush who would you rather be Lauda or Hunt. Your hating on the guy who is more like hunt.

And Rosberg managed to squeak out one undeserved championship. And he knew it and he knew he couldn't compete with Hamiltons talent so he quit.

 

[twitcher]

4 positions gained on the last 10 laps, well done by Grosjean. The Ferrari donkey has got some serious kick to it.




And for anyone wishing the actual rain came during the race....not exactly drivable conditions



I didn’t watch much of the after race coverage, but I don’t remember too much of the commentators undermining Lewis during the race...

 

[baldgye]

Well that was entertaining, to say the least. My random thoughts on the race.


• Lewis going from 14-1, with basically zero opposition from anyone he overtook shows how broken F1 is. I’m not blaming Lewis, I’m not blaming the guys he overtook. The combination of the the two tiers of competition combined with how data driven the sport is dictates that the midfield teams must get out of Lewis’s way as soon as possible, or risk losing time. If I want to see multiclass racing, I’ll watch WEC, this kind of “racing” is not what F1 should be about.

Two races now, Germany and Britain, where Lewis has had “recovery” drives where he didn’t have to fight for position, dispite overtaking some 30+ cars. To me, that’s not motor racing.

Fingers crossed, but hopefully simplified aero combined with the elimination of DRS, along with some budget restrictions, could see this problem resolved. That’s more of a long term hope, something to aim for post 2021.


• The Bollard. Once again, race control manage to make themselves look like they’re either bumbling idiots, or involved in a conspiracy.

- the bollard and the white line mean different things from one racetrack to the next. In Baku, that move would have been illegal. At Hockenheim, it’s only a reprimand. Okay then 👍

Charlie says the Baku incedent was not on because of the relative speeds involved. Ok, so what is the cutoff speed for when crossing the white pit line after the bollard is/isn’t dangerous?

- at Hockenheim, one CANNOT drive across the grass from left to right behind the bollard, as this would be seen as a dangerous maneuver. However, one CAN drive across the grass from right to left behind the bollard, as there is nothing dangerous about that (cutting across grass to rejoin the circuit is normal in F1).

- correct me if I’m wrong, but I was always under the impression that the point of the “bollard and white line” was an extension of the pit wall. I’m not talking about the pit entry line painted on the circuit, I’m talking about the bit of line between the bollard and the start of the pit wall. At Hockenheim, the pitwall could be extended to start where the bollard is, but that would be dangerous - therefore the pitwall is moved back, and a bollard and line are used to represent the start of the pit wall. To me, this would make any crossing of the line behind the bollard, either direction, a big no no. But what do I know.

- the stories from Charlie and company seem very strange.



It’s less clear that cutting across grass and rejoining the circuit in an unexpected manner is dangerous?

They don’t want guys diving IN at the last second, but they have no issue with guys diving OUT at the last second. Ok 👍

The bollard is a “point of no return”.....that you can return from......



So, there actually is a rule about going across the line after the bollard, in either directions, the stewards thought carefully about it, but decided to not act until after the race...and they settled on a reprimand, a literal slap on the wrist.

I can’t think of a single example from any other professional sport where a competitor broke a sporting rule, the officials thought carefully about it, and handed out a slap on the wrist, post-contest. Extremely unprecedented in sport. Reprimands and punishment for unsporting penalties sure, that happens all the time. But a breach of a sporting regulation that is in place for the safety of the competitors, punished by a reprimand (what was it, I’m assuming a fine?) after the contest is over....ok 👍


Some precedent regarding crossing the pit entry line after the bollard, from motorsport.com



So making a late dive into the pits is dangerous, and therefore against the rules. But precedent now says that making a late dive off of pit entry is perfectly ok, as long as you have the cash to pay the fine after the race is over. Right.

- I can’t find a direct quote from Charlie, but I have seen a lot of chatter saying that, because the incedent happened under SC, it’s no big deal. I’m fully aware that in this specific case, nothing actually dangerous happened. However, the excuse that because the SC was out, the rules can be relaxed a little bit, is one of the most insane arguments I’ve seen. Under the SC or any yellow flag condition, rules should be enforced 10x as much, and punishments should be at least double (like speeding in a construction zone).

- Again I can’t find the quote, but it’s been reported that Charlie said that one of the reasons there was only a repremand was because there was no previous precedent. I know I’m not the only one who thinks that opens a giant Pandora’s box, pretty much green lighting any unprecedented action.

What’s unprecedented about this whole event is that after such a simple and obvious infraction of the rules, the sports top official has had go to the media and blather on about why the decisions were made the way they were. Has anyone ever seen FIFA’s top official had to explain a simple out-of-bounds call?


Making mountains out of molehills, I know, but it’s going to come back to haunt the officials in a big way. Not that I think they really mind though, I don’t think the FIA really cares for the future of F1.


Article where I got the Charlie quotes from
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-precedent-hamilton-pit-entry-offence-whiting-1063082/


• I really have no idea about the whole Kimi/leclerc situation now. Kimi seems visibly frustrated with the situation, but Charles just showed that maybe he isn’t as ready as he could be. Furthermore, will marchionne’s replacement have the guts to take a risk on a young kid? We’ll see I guess.


• Caught some of Abitbol’s comments over the weekend from the pitwall. He’s now officially referring to Haas and Sauber as Ferrari’s “partners”, not “customer”. Interesting.

You might enjoy this;

 

[twitcher]

You might enjoy this;

so the same infraction can have up to 3 different penalties applied. Brilliant.

Do you have any insight into why some drivers get a reprimand, some get a time penalties, and some get a drive through, all for the same offence.

Awesome consistency displayed by the FIA. Thanks for posting that list to help prove my point 👍

Edit: and what about Charlie’s, “there was no precedent” statement. Only had 24 cases in the last 5 years of drivers crossing pit lines, there’s more than enough precedent there.

 

[baldgye]

so the same infraction can have up to 3 different penalties applied. Brilliant.

Do you have any insight into why some drivers get a reprimand, some get a time penalties, and some get a drive through, all for the same offence.

Awesome consistency displayed by the FIA. Thanks for posting that list to help prove my point 👍

Different tracks, different conditions.

 

[twitcher]

Different tracks, different conditions.

So the rules in F1 are completely subjective. Again, that’s basically what I’ve been saying.

The sporting rules are pretty clear. You cannot cross the white line after the bollard, in either direction. It’s about as simple as a rule can get, yet the FIA find a way to bung up its enforcement.

 

[baldgye]

So the rules in F1 are completely subjective. Again, that’s basically what I’ve been saying.

The sporting rules are pretty clear. You cannot cross the white line after the bollard, in either direction. It’s about as simple as a rule can get, yet the FIA find a way to bung up its enforcement.

Except they don't. You cannot treat all the tracks as equal/the same, because they are not.

 

[twitcher]

Except they don't. You cannot treat all the tracks as equal/the same, because they are not.

Umm, when it comes to the white lines painted on the ground, it doesn’t matter what circuit they’re at. Crossing a line is crossing a line.

Ever watched a football match and seen an out-of-bounds call made/not made because of the stadium the game was being played in? I think not.

And if it’s “different circuit, different circumstances”, why post a list of stuff that happened at other circuits? If each circuit is treated differently, then your list has no application to the discussion.


This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say F1 shoots itself in the foot with its ridiculous appliciation of rules. The sporting rules are clear as day, you cannot cross the line, in either direction. It’s about as simple of a rule as you can get in F1, and it should have one simple penalty. Reprimand, time penalty, drive through, take your pick. Whatever you pick though, you have to apply the same penalty to everyone who brakes the rule.

This subjective application of a simple rule, taking 3 hours to decide on is a farce.

Have you ever watched another sport where officials took 3 hours, post contest, to make a ruling on a simple breach of the sporting code?

Edit: also, re all the tracks being different. We saw that earlier this year. Paul Richard warrants a 5 second time penalty for contact on lap 1, whilst Silverstone warrants a 10 second penalty the same infraction. More consistency.

 

[baldgye]

Umm, when it comes to the white lines painted on the ground, it doesn’t matter what circuit they’re at. Crossing a line is crossing a line.

...and again, the FIA have approached each track and the limits of those tracks differently.

 

[twitcher]

...and again, the FIA have approached each track and the limits of those tracks differently.

I’m fully aware that’s what they’re doing. I’m saying they’re wrong for doing that, it’s a poor way to officiate a sport, and it is going to come back to bite them in the ass one day.

 

[baldgye]

I’m fully aware that’s what they’re doing. I’m saying they’re wrong for doing that, it’s a poor way to officiate a sport, and it is going to come back to bite them in the ass one day.

It's worked for years and caused no problems, what is 'going to go wrong' ?

 

[twitcher]

It's worked for years and caused no problems, what is 'going to go wrong' ?

You can’t imagine what can go wrong with inconsistent and subjective application of rules? You could start with Suzuka ‘89 as an example.

 

[baldgye]

You can’t imagine what can go wrong with inconsistent and subjective application of rules? You could start with Suzuka ‘89 as an example.

So an example of how the FIA has gotten decision making wrong in the modern era of Formula 1 is the 1989 Japanese Grand Prix?

 

[twitcher]

So an example of how the FIA has gotten decision making wrong in the modern era of Formula 1 is the 1989 Japanese Grand Prix?

I like how you slid “modern era” into there

It’s an example of how subjective application of the rules can cause a big controversy. A championship being decided by a subjective decision doesn’t need to happen more frequently than once every 30 years for the point to stand.

 

[baldgye]

I like how you slid “modern era” into there

It’s an example of how subjective application of the rules can cause a big controversy. A championship being decided by a subjective decision doesn’t need to happen more frequently than once every 30 years for the point to stand.

Well yeah, because I don't see how a 30 year old Grand Prix is relevant to current F1 stewarding.

 

[twitcher]

Well yeah, because I don't see how a 30 year old Grand Prix is relevant to current F1 stewarding.

I’m saying that if the stewards keep up this subjective application of simple sporting rules, they could find themselves in a situation similar to Suzuka ‘89. The fact it happened 30 years ago doesn’t make the subjective application of basic sporting regs which decided a championship irrelevant.

Ok, I had a go at giving you an example. Can you give me an example from another sport where officials took 3 hours, post contest, to make a decision regarding an infraction of a basic and clearly written sporting regulation?

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Vettel's crash got me thinking about how many times in recent history a driver in the lead of an F1 race has binned it whilst entirely on their own on the track, ie. without help from other drivers or mechanical problems. I'm struggling a bit though as it's not really a thing you can easily look up, so I'm going off memory/stuff I've picked up from season reviews etc.

• Lewis in China 2007 sprang to mind, when he fatefully beached it in the gravel coming into the pits, but reading about it again I see that McLaren kept him out on clapped-out tyres so long that Kimi had passed him before he got back to the pits (NO I'M NOT STILL SORE ABOUT IT).
• Brazil 2003 saw nearly half the grid go off thanks to heavy rain (in particular turn 3 which became waterlogged). But I'm not sure if any of them had been leading at the time, I suspect not.
• One of the most sudden and dramatic downpours F1 had in recent memory was at Malaysia in 2001, which produced total chaos and saw both Schumacher and Trulli going off while leading - but they both continued (and Michael even won the race in the end), so I don't count that as "binning it".
• So the most recent ones I know definitely happened takes me all the way back to 1999 - the season where pretty much everyone tried to throw away the championship at some point - where ironically this happened at least four (!!) times! Hakkinen at Imola, Schumacher in the wall of champions at Canada, Hakkinen again at Monza, and Coulthard at the Nurburgring.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious though - finding it hard to believe that the last time the leading driver crashed out by themselves was nearly 19 years ago...........can anyone think of other recent examples?