Formula 1 Pirelli British Grand Prix 2021Formula 1 

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They claim to have data that shows he was going too fast making contact inevitable, not that he did it on purpose. Two very different things.
He was definitely going faster that lap than any other - probably from using as much ERS discharge as possible - because... so was Verstappen.

Verstappen went into Copse hotter even than his own qualifying lap, which is mental as he was nine feet further towards the inside too. I suspect Red Bull will leave that particular nugget out of its evidential data.
 
I have a feeling a team owned by a multi-billionaire that also owns a second F1 team in Alpha Tauri crying about losing $1.8mil isn't going to get them much sympathy. Even from a budget cap perspective it seems like a daft thing to complain about since it just shows they were so incompetent that they neglected to factor in a scenario that isn't all that rare (having to write off a car).
 
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it was a freak accident
If by freak you mean something caused by Hamilton forgetting this was the real race, not Gran Turismo, because that’s how bad his mistake was-not holding his line even though Max gave him room.
The fact is it’s not a freak thing when there’s literally enough room on Hamilton’s right for almost two cars!
Your personality and attitude have to be in absolute blind faith to Horner or full-on hate of Hamilton to think Horner isn't doing exactly what I described. Esp. when it's come out that Mercedes were given the all-clear on Max's condition from Red Bull to celebrate despite Horner trying to act like Mercedes/Lewis are absolutely tone-deaf in doing so.
Many here are in the equal opposite “Hamilton is an angel” camp.
How soon we forget what he’s done before with that left front to right rear move…
2 funny how that Mercedes excuse came out like days afterward even though max called them out on it immediately.
Why didn’t they say immediately they knew Max survived!
I will tell you because they made it up later to save face for Hamilton’s parade lap after winning by wrecking the leader lap 1!
 
You admitted that Horner article says that Hamilton was "desperate". Considering 51G crash, which is critical to the human in many cases, I can allow that Hamilton doesn't care about health and life of his opponent (making an attack in Copse THAT way).
Hamilton wasn’t the only driver to take the battle into Copse, and he’s not the only one responsible for the contact between the cars.

The figure of 51 g is primarily an issue for the safety engineers and the governing boards. They know the speed of the cars and they know the geometry of the tracks, they have decided what kind of crash tolerances to accept.
 
I have a feeling a team owned by a multi-billionaire that also owns a second F1 team in Alpha Tauri crying about losing $1.8mil isn't going to get them much sympathy. Even from a budget cap perspective it seems like a daft thing to complain about since it just shows they were so incompetent that they neglected to factor in a scenario that isn't all that rare (having to write off a car).

You are talking like communist.
 
Many here are in the equal opposite “Hamilton is an angel” camp.
I haven't seen anyone here expressing that sentiment or anything approaching it.

Calling it a racing incident, or even apportioning more of the culpability for the accident to Verstappen than the stewards did, is not letting Hamilton off the hook or promoting him to angelhood. Almost everyone else here - with the notable exception of the troll - has said it looks more like a racing incident, with two drivers equally stubborn and equally refusing to back down causing an incident between themselves that either could have avoided.

This version of events where people think Hamilton is totally blameless is known as a "straw man". You have created it entirely from your imagination and are now attacking it as if that is a position which has been advanced by anyone. If you're going to enter a discussion, please discuss what people are actually discussing and not stuff you've made up; it's a waste of your time as much as anyone else's.

2 funny how that Mercedes excuse came out like days afterward even though max called them out on it immediately.
Why didn’t they say immediately they knew Max survived!
I will tell you because they made it up later to save face for Hamilton’s parade lap after winning by wrecking the leader lap 1!
That's actually highly concerning. If Mercedes has made it up later to save face, it means they have also got access to a time machine which allowed them to go back and give Hamilton the chance to ask if Verstappen was okay (to which they responded that he was) over team radio during the red flag in the live broadcast.

Of course that does beg the question of why they haven't used it to avoid the incident altogether.
 
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i can see this incident being talked about all season, its really divided F1 fans. Especially when at the end of the season and a few points seperate them. Imagine then if Lewis marginally wins the championship, They will be talking about it for years. Too friendly to each other these drivers nowadays, we need some beef, we need more rivalries and F1 has been needing hard racing at the front for years. Now its happening and iam loving it !
 
I'm going to be honest, I was iffy on Red Bull after all the driver swapping crap, but this has made me go off them big time. Only really there for Checo now.

I'm just wondering if with some of the language used if they're aware of the hole they're digging because the louder they get, the more people will call them out if they get caught doing it themselves.
 
You are talking like communist.
He's actually making an excellent point. Any successful company absolutely factors in worst-case scenarios into their budget.

On top of @Northstar 's point, Red Bull is the one who just said earlier this month,
“You’ve got to go week by week, race by race and I think the team's doing a great job of balancing the challenges of this year and next year,” he explained about the potential to not risk its 2022 efforts.

“It's nothing new. I mean there's a lot being made of it at the moment, but we've had big regulation changes in the past so you just have got to balance your resource and apply it to what needs the most. I think the team are working incredibly hard, extremely well and effectively.”

Many teams have reportedly stopped development on the current car to focus on the next-gen. car. Meanwhile, Red Bull apparently has no problem funding both.
 
If by freak you mean something caused by Hamilton forgetting this was the real race, not Gran Turismo, because that’s how bad his mistake was-not holding his line even though Max gave him room.
Except for when Max didn't, which was when he decided to charge for the apex, fully aware of where Hamilton is, and attempts to cut in front of Hamilton's wing.

Hamilton absolutely should have backed down, but Max could've easily understeered a bit extra to use up the remaining track surface to his left. Worst thing that would've happened is that Max would've gone off track for a bit and/or lose some of his gap to Hamilton.

Also, Hamilton did hold his line, it's just that his line was also going to force him to miss the apex and produce greater understeer. Now, if you can produce footage of Hamilton giving leftward steering input on his onboard camera, then you might have a point.
The fact is it’s not a freak thing when there’s literally enough room on Hamilton’s right for almost two cars!
I highly recommend that you actually watch the race footage right before impact, because this tells me that you didn't even watch the race, let alone the footage.
Many here are in the equal opposite “Hamilton is an angel” camp.
Literally nobody has said that. Almost everyone has said that it's a racing incident caused by both drivers, with the exception of you and the aforementioned troll.
How soon we forget what he’s done before with that left front to right rear move…
2 funny how that Mercedes excuse came out like days afterward even though max called them out on it immediately.
Why didn’t they say immediately they knew Max survived!
Max put out an exasperated radio message and hopped out of his car under his own strength. And before you mention it, his hospital visit was SOP. At no point was he fully hospitalized for injuries caused by the crash.

The delay in the reporting is odd, though, especially considering that Mercedes got the news from a official at Red Bull. You'd think they'd put that news out immediately.
 
Why didn’t they say immediately they knew Max survived!
I'm going to assume English isn't your first language because the fact that Verstappen sent out a tweet is yet another indicator Max survived. I'll presume you mean that Max was Ok.

The quote direct from Toto Wolff is:

Speaking exclusively to Autosport about the nature of the post-race reaction, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff said: "It's important to understand all the feedback that we received. "We had the feedback from senior management of Red Bull that Max was fine. Christian [Horner] mentioned it to [F1 race director] Michael Masi on the intercom that he's unharmed and fine, and the FIA gave us similar feedback. "So at no point would we have celebrated if Max would have been injured. And I think that's very important to understand."
 
iterally nobody has said that. Almost everyone has said that it's a racing incident caused by both drivers, with the exception of you and the aforementioned troll.
Right, because they are people who worship Hamilton and believe he is infallible, because that belief is in contradiction to the FIA. (You know them-it’s their job to determine fault.)
So these Hamilton worshippers, since he made that awful desperate move which almost killed Max, INITIATED BY HAMILTON no less, for these folks the best possible outcome for them is to call it a racing incident lol, because everyone can see Hamilton overshot the apex by a mile and it was all his fault Max crashed!
Hamilton was childish and impatient to run next to the wall after Max covered him off!
That was Gran Turismo on a ds4, not the worlds top level drivers!
I will say again, it never would have happened if they hadn’t done that stupid sprint race.
Hamilton was desperate because he knew if he didn’t get a move done the first lap the race was over!
The Hamilton worshippers best most positive outcome from this egregious incident is to write it off as “that’s racing” instead of looking at it objectively and saying “Hamilton initiated overtake on inside of fast turn, Very very risky to begin with, and only was able to overlap because he carried too much speed to HOLD the inside line, which caused him to understeer across track and takeout the race leader.”
To paraphrase he initiated a risky move, a desperate one, and ran into Max.

The worst part is that let’s say Ham slowed enough not to hit Max and crash him out, well he’d be TOO SLOW TO OVERTAKE anyways!
Furthermore I previously posted several examples of pro racers who were not afraid to point out Hamilton’s fault in Max’s crash!
 
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So these Hamilton haters, since he made that attempted move to pass, that caused an incident with Max, for these folks the best possible outcome for them is to call it intentional lol,
Can be literally flipped to other side.
The Hamilton haters best most positive outcome from this egregious incident is to write it off as “intentional” instead of looking at it objectively
Again, can be literally flipped. In which case, is exactly what you're not doing.
Furthermore I previously posted several examples of pro racers who were not afraid to point out Hamilton’s fault in Max’s crash!
You've cited two, a YouTuber/Mansell, & Button. There have been opposite opinions from Hakkinen, Ricciardo, Alonso, & LeClerc.

Interesting how you conveniently ignore the opposing views each time they're brought up.

Edit* Someone on Reddit composed all the takes:

F1 Drivers (past and present) - Daniel Ricciardo: Lewis error (unintentional) - Mark Webber: Lewis error (unintentional) - Alex Albon (bias RB): unclear but implied neither at fault? - Charles Leclerc: Racing incident - Jolyon Palmer: Racing incident - Fernando Alonso: Racing incident - David Coulthard (bias RB): Lewis error (unintentional) - Martin Brundle: Racing incident - Jenson Button: Lewis error (unintentional) - Karun Chandhok: Racing incident - Kevin Magnussen: Lewis error (unintentional) - Nikolas Kiesa: Lewis error (unintentional) - Timo Glock: Lewis error (unintentional) - Ralf Schumacher: Lewis error (unintentional) - Franck Motagny: Racing incident - Jacques Villeneuve: Lewis error (unintentional) - Mika Salo: Max’s error - Pedro de la Rosa: Lewis error (unintentional) - Felipe Massa: Lewis error (unintentional) - Rubens Barichello: Lewis error (unintentional) - Taki Inoue: Racing incident - Marcus Ericsson: Lewis error (unintentional) - Damon Hill: Racing incident - Mika Hakkinen: Racing incident - Nico Rosberg: Racing incident - Juan Pablo Montoya: Racing incident


Non-drivers - Will Buxton: Racing incident - Otmar Szafnauer (bias Merc): Racing incident - Lawrence Barretto: Max error (unintentional) - Tom Kristensen: Racing incident - Scott Mansell/ Driver61: Lewis error (unintentional) - Chainbear: Racing incident - James Allison (bias Merc): Racing incident - Masashi Yamamoto (bias RB): Racing incident

If you go by drivers, I believe (if I counted them right) it's 13 for Lewis, 12 for Racing Incident, and 1 for Max. Or in other words, split down the line. If we include non-drivers, I think it tips to Lewis -14, Incident - 18, Max 2.

Toto, Horner, Hamilton, Max, & Marko were excluded for obvious bias.

But, it's quite clearly not a unanimous decision how who's to blame.
 
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Right, because they are people who worship Hamilton and believe he is infallible, because that belief is in contradiction to the FIA. (You know them-it’s their job to determine fault.)
So these Hamilton worshippers, since he made that awful desperate move which almost killed Max, INITIATED BY HAMILTON no less, for these folks the best possible outcome for them is to call it a racing incident lol, because everyone can see Hamilton overshot the apex by a mile and it was all his fault Max crashed!
Hamilton was childish and impatient to run next to the wall after Max covered him off!
That was Gran Turismo on a ds4, not the worlds top level drivers!
I will say again, it never would have happened if they hadn’t done that stupid sprint race.
Hamilton was desperate because he knew if he didn’t get a move done the first lap the race was over!
The Hamilton worshippers best most positive outcome from this egregious incident is to write it off as “that’s racing” instead of looking at it objectively and saying “Hamilton initiated overtake on inside of fast turn, Very very risky to begin with, and only was able to overlap because he carried too much speed to HOLD the inside line, which caused him to understeer across track and takeout the race leader.”
To paraphrase he initiated a risky move, a desperate one, and ran into Max.

The worst part is that let’s say Ham slowed enough not to hit Max and crash him out, well he’d be TOO SLOW TO OVERTAKE anyways!
Furthermore I previously posted several examples of pro racers who were not afraid to point out Hamilton’s fault in Max’s crash!
Two rivals crashing into each other is not an indication of mediocrity, but the racing mentality. Neither driver was willing to give up track position so both are to blame for the crash, although to varying degrees. As the stewards said, Hamilton was "predominantly" to blame, but not entirely. You cannot say that Verstappen is totally innocent despite coming off second best. It sucks that the contact put him out but you can't deny his role in it.
 
Can be literally flipped to other side.

Again, can be literally flipped. In which case, is exactly what you're not doing.

You've cited two, a YouTuber/Mansell, & Button. There have been opposite opinions from Hakkinen, Ricciardo, Alonso, & LeClerc.

Interesting how you conveniently ignore the opposing views each time they're brought up.

Edit* Someone on Reddit composed all the takes:



If you go by drivers, I believe (if I counted them right) it's 13 for Lewis, 12 for Racing Incident, and 1 for Max. Or in other words, split down the line. If we include non-drivers, I think it tips to Lewis -14, Incident - 18, Max 2.

Toto, Horner, Hamilton, Max, & Marko were excluded for obvious bias.

But, it's quite clearly not a unanimous decision how who's to blame.
I don’t know why you felt the need to edit those quotes to something different from what I wrote.
That’s poor form.
Changed my words, then replied, so in effect you are talking to yourself.
Nice work there.
 
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Right, because they are people who worship Hamilton and believe he is infallible,...
If that were the case, you'd see a lot more posts here trying to defend Hamilton despite the obvious, a lot like what you're doing to Max.
...because that belief is in contradiction to the FIA. (You know them-it’s their job to determine fault.)
Implying that the stewards never make a bad call.
So these Hamilton worshippers, since he made that awful desperate move which almost killed Max, INITIATED BY HAMILTON no less, for these folks the best possible outcome for them is to call it a racing incident lol, because everyone can see Hamilton overshot the apex by a mile and it was all his fault Max crashed!
Girl Reaction GIF


By absolutely no measure did Hamilton "nearly kill Max." He caused Max to have a hard impact for sure, but Max was able to move under his own power and immediately replied to the radio. He also had no major injuries reported after visiting the hospital.

Serious question: Are you capable of having any kind of discussion in good faith? Or are you just gonna blow off opposing opinions with silly takes that you made up? Because the latter is counter to an actual conversation.
Hamilton was childish and impatient to run next to the wall after Max covered him off!
And again, Max tried to close the door on Hamilton even though he was fully aware of where he was, and had plenty of track himself to use. You seem to be missing this important tidbit.
That was Gran Turismo on a ds4, not the worlds top level drivers!
I will say again, it never would have happened if they hadn’t done that stupid sprint race.
You know this how? The 2 of them have been the frontrunners in nearly every race this season. They would've been the frontrunners anyways if qualifying happened as normally. Considering that they're the 2 favorites for the title, and both Max and Hamilton are uber-aggressive drivers (funny how prevelant this double standard seems to be) it's extremely safe to say that incident wasn't a question "if," but "when?"
Hamilton was desperate because he knew if he didn’t get a move done the first lap the race was over!
The same could be said about Max's move to cut off Hamilton, which seemed like a desperate attempt to stop Hamilton from catching him.
The Hamilton worshippers...
Again, what Hamilton worshippers have you seen here? @McLaren has shown that actual drivers (and non-drivers) are pretty much split down the middle, and @Famine has said nobody here is pushing the narrative of "Hamilton being an angel."
....best most positive outcome from this egregious incident is to write it off as “that’s racing” instead of looking at it objectively...
Considering how much information you've been blatantly ignoring while writing these posts, you have absolutely no room to accuse people of lacking objectivity.

Furthermore I previously posted several examples of pro racers who were not afraid to point out Hamilton’s fault in Max’s crash!
You posted basically 2, which @McLaren has already addressed.
 
I don’t know why you felt the need to edit those quotes to something different from what I wrote.
That’s poor form.
Changed my words, then replied, so in effect you are talking to yourself.
Nice work there.
I edited them to showcase the ridiculous of them. What you are accusing "Hamilton lovers" of doing is the exact same thing one can accuse "Hamilton haters" of doing.

The irony is stating, "instead of looking at it objectively", something you've done nothing of.

Congrats on also once more, conveniently glossing over the drivers' opinions.
 
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When bad things happen to RBR and they're this salty you know they deserve it.

Max tried that "F' around and find out" thing and he found out.

You can bet that if the shoe was on the other foot they wouldnt be as gracious as Hamilton and Mercedes on victory.

It'll be a great day when Hamilton gets another DC and RBR cry some more.

Clowns times 3 indeed. That's Max, Horner & Marko.
 
I don't remember Haas crying publicly about the cost of Grosjean's crash and trying to extricate the cost from AlphaTauri. It's a racing series with expensive cars and high speeds, of course a big crash is going to cost a lot. Stop moaning. If you can't afford to crash the car, don't race. If you can afford to fix it, suck it up and get on with it.

The only time a team managed to get compensation from a crash was Haas in 2017 when a drain cover caused Grosjean to have a biggie. But that was compensation from the circuit as it was something that shouldn't have happened. Two cars colliding on lap 1 is not out of the ordinary, get over it RB.
 
I don't remember Haas crying publicly about the cost of Grosjean's crash and trying to extricate the cost from AlphaTauri. It's a racing series with expensive cars and high speeds, of course a big crash is going to cost a lot. Stop moaning. If you can't afford to crash the car, don't race. If you can afford to fix it, suck it up and get on with it.

The only time a team managed to get compensation from a crash was Haas in 2017 when a drain cover caused Grosjean to have a biggie. But that was compensation from the circuit as it was something that shouldn't have happened. Two cars colliding on lap 1 is not out of the ordinary, get over it RB.
While Haas were never a rich team and thus would've suffered bad from a crash like this, Red Bull's current problem isn't that they don't have the cash. Their problem is they're capped at $145 million for the season and the development budget for '22 has to come out of that pot as well.

If you haven't budgeted $1.5 million for a rebuild then you can't just throw money at the problem, you need to pull $1.5 mill from somewhere else in order to stay under the cap.

I will say though, they should revise the rule about grid penalties for parts swaps when an accident of this magnitude occurs. The rule is in place to prevent rich teams from building fast but unreliable engines and throw them away, and that's clearly not what RB are doing in this case.
 
While Haas were never a rich team and thus would've suffered bad from a crash like this, Red Bull's current problem isn't that they don't have the cash. Their problem is they're capped at $145 million for the season and the development budget for '22 has to come out of that pot as well.

If you haven't budgeted $1.5 million for a rebuild then you can't just throw money at the problem, you need to pull $1.5 mill from somewhere else in order to stay under the cap.
A racing team not budgeting for crash damage is like a restaurant not budgeting for having to throw away bad food. It sucks that it happens, it's not always under your control and it's insanely hard to budget for, but it's an inevitability and if you don't take it into consideration it will come back to bite you in the 🤬. The fact big teams are having to run like actual businesses is a sign the cost cutting measures are working.

I will say though, they should revise the rule about grid penalties for parts swaps when an accident of this magnitude occurs. The rule is in place to prevent rich teams from building fast but unreliable engines and throw them away, and that's clearly not what RB are doing in this case.
I think revising the rules in that fashion would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the cost cutting measures as small teams would still have to take from their development budget while rich teams would get a free pass.
 
As soon as you say "parts swapped after a crash are free", drivers 5 laps from the end of a race in 15th place will begin tactically crashing so they can get a free engine swap next time. Any rule can be exploited, and ones that make there being a tactical advantage to deliberately crashing must not be allowed.
 
A racing team not budgeting for crash damage is like a restaurant not budgeting for having to throw away bad food. It sucks that it happens, it's not always under your control and it's insanely hard to budget for, but it's an inevitability and if you don't take it into consideration it will come back to bite you in the 🤬. The fact big teams are having to run like actual businesses is a sign the cost cutting measures are working.
Oh absolutely, I agree 100% and I think it's a positive sign that the budget caps are working.
I think revising the rules in that fashion would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the cost cutting measures as small teams would still have to take from their development budget while rich teams would get a free pass.
They wouldn't get a free pass on the money, they would in my suggestion get a free pass on the grid penalty. Any budgetary concerns would still remain.

Also, the rules would have to be written so that they would be hard to exploit. Perhaps write them such that a team can petition for an exemption from the grid penalty rather than having it be automatic. That way RB could have asked for an exemption (which would be granted) but Aston Martin couldn't tactically crash Vettel and hope for an exemption because it would be apparent.

Also with the budget caps, how big of an issue would grid penalty exemptions be? It's apparently a big deal for Red Bull now!
 
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