Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

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Well I remember GT5's attempt at offering a couple of routes and dirt physics. It was, to be blunt, a complete waste of time and effort. I'm pretty sure T10 won't do something like that, though, because it just doesn't make sense compared to the hundreds of square miles of countryside and hundreds of miles of dirt roads in the Horizon games.

But coming back to your suggestion: We know they only have 20 locations, so we can be pretty sure that if they brought dirt it would either be a single location (probably just a single route) or for example a dirt short tracks at the same location as tarmac ovals. But really... no thanks. I don't see any added value there.
I kind of liked the snow circuits in GT5, but I agree the dirt ones were pretty bad. Dirt circuits have no real life equivalent (aside from rallycross) so they feel pretty arbitrary and uncompelling. You really need dedicated rally stages, but that starts to be a significant amount of work or else it will feel like an afterthought.
 
So... Geoff Keighley says "before June 2023" and Jeff Grubb says "like Q3, and maybe even a little bit later".

But which Geoff/Jeff is right?

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I kind of liked the snow circuits in GT5, but I agree the dirt ones were pretty bad. Dirt circuits have no real life equivalent (aside from rallycross) so they feel pretty arbitrary and uncompelling. You really need dedicated rally stages, but that starts to be a significant amount of work or else it will feel like an afterthought.

Or they could just do rallycross, which is a real life sport that has real life circuits.

Agree with GT snow courses, Chamonix on GT4 was always good fun.
 
Or they could just do rallycross, which is a real life sport that has real life circuits.

Agree with GT snow courses, Chamonix on GT4 was always good fun.
Knowing the property around Laguna Seca, you could do a really fun fantasy rallycross or kind of hybrid trail circuit there, up through the live oak groves on the fire roads. That would actually be really cool and leverage a well-loved existing circuit. That would probably run afoul licensing agreements sadly.
 
Nothing in the teasers suggest there will be rallycross/rally events in the game. However, this is the engine that will power future Forza Horizon games so it should be feasible, and maybe in the future there will be a rally focused expansion for FM, considering that Dirt is now dead and there is a void for more casual dirt racing.
 
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Would have saved everyone some internet bandwidth, tbh.





I like how you're posting this as if you didn't spend the first several years you were on this forum fellating PD for basically everything they did and I didn't spend the entirety of GT5 and GT6's life ripping into PD for including and repeatedly deliberately misrepresenting the Standard cars. Yes, a car that looks more accurate to a real life car looks more accurate to a real life car. That remains the case regardless of if it was something PD did on a PS2 devkit in 1999. In fact, I would have thought this was stuff that was understood 25 years ago when the first Gran Turismo game came out and easily outpaced anything before it; nevermind "technically" more "impressive" things that came early in the DC/PS2's life that nonetheless looked like trash in comparison like Test Drive 6.






Is there something you'd actually like to add that somehow implies that a car having a higher polygon budget means it is inherently more accurate?









And the people who did some of the earlier, repeatedly-carried-over assets from early in the franchise were measuring in mm with a Standard ruler.




Just like Game Freak did with Sword and Shield, I'm sure.











In fact, it sure would be embarrassing for some people in this thread who keep trying to blow off criticisms of obviously ported car models (and the potential for other, significantly worse ones to reappear) if there were a bunch of posts of from a decade ago they were constantly ripping into people for criticizing Forza 5's infamous dearth of content as part of their one-man crusade to defend how also definitely "rebuilt from scratch" (honest!) Greenawalt constantly claimed that game was.






Or at least I suppose it would be embarrassing if they weren't so frequently just Zer0 for the other team.











On that topic:



I'm sorry buickgnx88. You must be wrong here just like you must have been wrong in 2014. They clearly rebuilt everything from scratch, and somehow the exact same individual contractors made the exact same individual modeling mistakes and possibly even overwhelmingly the same wireframes. So it is written, so it will be dictated in this forum for 3-6 months after this game releases to defend any of its failings.



After all, developers always tell the truth about such things.
Again, you put this quote in "Some are better than others, but basically every car in the first 3 games look off." and this "and some of the pre-Forza 4 cars easily looked worse than the Standard equivalents no matter how many more polygons were wasted on them as Xbox 360 assets." and talk like only "some" cars look good from that era like its 800 bad looking and 30 good looking cars. The Ferrari 458 is from Forza Motorsport 3 just like the many other good models.

Forza Motorsport 7 had 834 cars and roughly 30 of those 834 cars where bad models which leaves us with 800+ great looking cars where atleast 100 of them are from previous Forza games. And 800+ cars have Forzavista with fully modeled engine bays, trunks, doors and roofs which the 95% X360 cars didn't have. And on top of that they changed almost every shader texture and detail on those models. Those models still look better in game than almost any other game, even the bad models look better in game than most other games because they don't use there full lod like Forza does.

And again i am also not happy that those bad models returned, but you need to stop telling people that pixelated ps2 cars are better than those touched up models. Becuase those car models while been slightly inaccurate don't look bad in game like you are saying.
So called 360 model (one of the worst model in a current Forza)
Forza-Horizon-5-27-01-2023-23-30-19.jpg

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This is how a from the ground made up car for GTS looks like in GT7 during gameplay and photomode!
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Again, while the GT7 scape model is perfectly accurate and a much much better model than in Forza, is it more accurate during gameplay than those bad Forza models during gameplay? All those hard edges and loss of detail vs slightly inaccuracy in the worst forza model. Does a Subaru STI have 8 polygon edges on the roof in real life? Does the wheel look like that in real life?


Ok sure, I can see there are some missing details there. The car model still looks good though, nothing looks wrong or off, just lower LOD. You are kind of undermining your own position with this comparison though. If that is not acceptable for GT, how can worse quality be acceptable in Forza?

I'm going to give you a really good example of why I'm bothered by Forza's models. One of my favorite cars of all time is the third generation Mazda RX-7. I'm actually an RX-7 owner myself. I've been in and driven several of these cars. The Forza model, particularly the interior, is bad. Like uncanny valley bad. Like I don't use the car in FH4 because it's so bad, despite - again- being one of my favorite cars there is.

View attachment 1226469

The exterior of the FD is also pretty off, but I'm going to focus on the interior here. The singular focal point of the entire FD RX-7 interior is the centrally mounted tachometer. But it's so sloppily modeled that the end of the needle extends clear outside of the scale, and there is a bizarre black border around the tachometer face that just doesn't exist in the real car. And it's been this way since FM3. It's not supposed to look like that. For somebody that uses the interior view, this is very unpleasant to look at. Look at the relationship of the trim rings to the gauge face . The central vents are the wrong shape, the door vent and really the whole door trim is the wrong size and shape, the steering wheel doesn't look right, etc. It just looks like a poor imitation of an RX-7, rather than the real thing.

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And the same can be said about those Forza models, little less accurate but still look good during gameplay. Same way GT7 car model been less accurate during gameplay because of lower lod and missing tesselation like i showed above.
 
Why are you are replying to your own speculation as if it is a real thing? Lol. "Don't see added value in this stuff I just made up" ?

If they can do it well I'd like to see dirt racing in the next Forza Motorsport.
Would really make these SUV's, pickup trucks, 4x4's, rally cars, buggies and heavy offroad race cars feel more alive, as opposed to just having them race on the usual tarmac tracks. And plus it's about time we have realistic rally racing in Motorsport, which means we will also need some offroad tracks like dirt and snow. Motorsport 7 was originally supposed to have a rallycross mode but was scrapped entirely. Imagine, if it did make it to Motorsport 7, it would have been a turning point for the series.

Horizon's rally and off-road racing has always been arcade. I hope to see rally in Motorsport 8 almost being similar to either Dirt 5 or Dirt Rally 2.0.
 
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The only thing I've been able to think of is their damage model. Potentially going through and hand modeling damage and dirt buildup for all the cars in multiple configurations is going to be a fair amount of work. It should be a fair amount of work to do it well and not have it just look like the same damage models most games have.

On the plus side, it's probably fairly fast per car so you might reasonably expect all the cars that are already modelled for FH4/5 to make their way into the game in the first year or two. Although potentially not for free.
Ah yeah, that could make sense if they did that.
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With that said, they seriously couldn't have fixed the bad models while doing that? Dammit Turn 10!

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On another note, just in case I haven't mentioned it before. I am a bit excited at the idea that they're focusing on more race cars, I like some of the new-to-series racers seen already in the presentation.

Also happy that Toyota truly is back with the GT-ONE. Now if PD would follow suit and add that back to GT7.
 
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Now that we've discussed the fact that cars aren't made from the ground up, I wonder what the situation will be with the tracks, because some of the older tracks are also carryovers from 360 era with a bad inaccurate scan, Laguna Seca for example, and a few others like Road America/Atlanta, Sebring, Nurburgring in some parts, Le Mans is an old scan. New tracks made for Forza 5 and up were pretty good, but I wonder if we'll see some carryovers in this aspect as well.
 
So... Geoff Keighley says "before June 2023" and Jeff Grubb says "like Q3, and maybe even a little bit later".

But which Geoff/Jeff is right?


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from Phil Spencer IGN interview

I know there were some questions on the date on Forza Motorsport, because we just revealed the year. Everybody should know just the quality that Turn 10 puts into Motorsport, if you look historically, is going to be there in this game. That's the thing that, first and foremost, is most important, and we will come out with a date, no doubt when we're a little bit closer. But we just wanted to reaffirm to people that this is a 2023 game.
I’m going with Grubb - it ain’t coming anytime soon.
 
How ? Like there are laserscanners that are 10 meters off ? Yea sure lol 😂 😂 😂
Some tracks are from before they were laserscanning them. They only started doing it with Forza Motorsport 5. Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta/America, Le Mans, Sebring, Hockenheim, Catalunya, Indianapolis, Sonoma are the old ones that were made without laserscanning.
 
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Everything seems to be "built from the ground up" Except the most important thing. The physics.
Sad Baby GIF

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Knowing the property around Laguna Seca, you could do a really fun fantasy rallycross or kind of hybrid trail circuit there, up through the live oak groves on the fire roads. That would actually be really cool and leverage a well-loved existing circuit. That would probably run afoul licensing agreements sadly.

This is what I mean though, this wiykd be way too much work and effort for a niche aspect of the game. When there's gonna be (potentially) 6 or 7 circuits already in the game, that have real rallycross layouts within the circuit. Minimal effort, maximum return.

I still don't think we'll see any off road stuff anyway, but if we do, I bet it'll be those rallycross tracks.
 
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
They maybe right if you ignore the:
-New tire physics model with an 8 point of contact sytem per tire that polls at 360Hz now (up from 1 point per tire at 60Hz)
-New suspension physics model that simulate roll, anti-dive, anti-squat and dynamic force propagation.
dynamic rubbering-in on the track
-New tire pressure model that implements how heat interacts with tire pressure
-Dynamic track temperatures for Day/night
-New atmospheric pressure system that actually has pressure affecting things like air density affecting aerodynamics and power as well as the tire pressure
-New Soft/Medium/Hard tire system
-Fuel weight affecting vehicle dynamics
-Slipstream system that works better than FM7
-New kerb interactions
-Drying racing line along for various weather conditions
-weight modeling that includes fuel and supports ballast adjustments
 
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I don't understand the calls for rally... Just buy a rally game instead of trying to shoehorn it into a road racing game. Gran Turismo added rally years ago and it's still little more than a gimmick and really hasn't done much for the series. On top of that, one of the biggest complaints aimed at FM7 was saying it had no direction or focus... Just let FM8 focus on being a good road racing game.

The time (and therefore money) it takes to make those things doesn't just appear out of thin air, they would have to divert it away from other parts of the game, spreading the team thinner and diluting the resulting content. With the significant cut in circuits, I'd much rather they didn't have even more on their plate and could just focus on getting more road circuits updated and added back into the game.

To me it's kinda like going into a Chinese restaurant and demanding they make you a pizza... Like sure, they might be able to do it, but wouldn't it be better for everyone involved if you just went to a pizzeria?

-New atmospheric pressure system that actually has pressure affecting things like air density affecting aerodynamics and power as well as the tire pressure
This is actually a potential nightmare, especially for multiplayer, depending on how it is implemented.

I asked Esaki about this on Twitter when this was mentioned (what feels like) a few years ago in one of their Forza Monthly previews, and he said that atmospheric pressure would change PI to reflect naturally aspirated cars losing power at higher altitudes. If that is still true, that means your saved tunes change PI from circuit to circuit, meaning you either need to have several tunes saved for each car, or alternatively need enough time between races to add/remove an upgrade from your car. At least in single player you could take as long as you needed to rebuild your car, but it would still be annoying.

To be honest that is one of those things that is really best for all if it isn't simulated, as it adds nothing but complications for both players and developers and even a lot of "hardcore" sims don't bother with this. I haven't watched all of the Forza Monthly thing because I mostly just got highlights here, but that was actually something I was relieved I hadn't heard them mention lately.
 
Some tracks are from before they were laserscanning them. They only started doing it with Forza Motorsport 5. Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta/America, Le Mans, Sebring, Hockenheim, Catalunya, Indianapolis, Sonoma are the old ones that were made without laserscanning.

I understand but also the methodes before laserscanning are not meters off if you do it right. KW Studios Tracks for RaceRoom are the prime example that laserscanning is nice to have for accurate bumps but not really needed for the overall track layout.

Can you link some examples were people compared Forza tracks with laserscan data ? Does something like this exist ? I would be interested to take a look :)

Also a really great video about how Turn10 builds track in detail and it includes a comparison laserscan vs old tech that may be interesting for some people here :)

 
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I understand but also the methodes before laserscanning are not meters off if you do it right. KW Studios Tracks for RaceRoom are the prime example that laserscanning is nice to have for accurate bumps but not really needed for the overall track layout.

Can you link some examples were people compared Forza tracks with laserscan data ? Does something like this exist ? I would be interested to take a look :)

Also a really great video about how Turn10 builds track in detail and it includes a comparison laserscan vs old tech that may be interesting for some people here :)


They say precisely that the old GPS method is not accurate on the Z-axis, meaning vertical. That's why they avoided making tracks with big elevation changes before Forza 5 like Spa and Bathurst. And why Laguna's corkscrew was wrong. I don't believe Laguna was ever fixed. Same for others.
 
Sucks that they delayed this, guess it gives me a little time to figure out how I'll get into the Xbox ecosystem.
 
Ok sure, I can see there are some missing details there. The car model still looks good though, nothing looks wrong or off, just lower LOD. You are kind of undermining your own position with this comparison though. If that is not acceptable for GT, how can worse quality be acceptable in Forza?

I'm going to give you a really good example of why I'm bothered by Forza's models. One of my favorite cars of all time is the third generation Mazda RX-7. I'm actually an RX-7 owner myself. I've been in and driven several of these cars. The Forza model, particularly the interior, is bad. Like uncanny valley bad. Like I don't use the car in FH4 because it's so bad, despite - again- being one of my favorite cars there is.

View attachment 1226469

The exterior of the FD is also pretty off, but I'm going to focus on the interior here. The singular focal point of the entire FD RX-7 interior is the centrally mounted tachometer. But it's so sloppily modeled that the end of the needle extends clear outside of the scale, and there is a bizarre black border around the tachometer face that just doesn't exist in the real car. And it's been this way since FM3. It's not supposed to look like that. For somebody that uses the interior view, this is very unpleasant to look at. Look at the relationship of the trim rings to the gauge face . The central vents are the wrong shape, the door vent and really the whole door trim is the wrong size and shape, the steering wheel doesn't look right, etc. It just looks like a poor imitation of an RX-7, rather than the real thing.

View attachment 1226470
how is the spirit r compared to the vanilla rx7? i think the spirit r was introduced after fm1

honestly they could just put better/different versions of the bad modelled cars without acknowledging it, the ae86 is atrocious, well, just put a 2 door trueno, or a black limited, in fact the ae86 got worse with time, as since horizon 2 and motorsport 6 it has the wrong paintjob at the bumper
 
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One thing I was hoping to see some little info on was customization. If I have 600hp 370z is the exhaust going to match? If you got an exhaust upgrade it wouldn’t upgrade the actual exhaust, unless you switched the rear bumper in FM… Window stickers also would be nice in the upcoming FM. I hope they added some new things when it comes to that!
 
For all the technical mumbo jumbo of these past years (If I ever hear "from the ground up" again...), If we end up with a better looking/sounding/performing PC3... :scared::odd: I would not be displeased, honestly. Then again, I WISH we had the track list of PC3!
 
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Now that we've discussed the fact that cars aren't made from the ground up, I wonder what the situation will be with the tracks, because some of the older tracks are also carryovers from 360 era with a bad inaccurate scan, Laguna Seca for example, and a few others like Road America/Atlanta, Sebring, Nurburgring in some parts, Le Mans is an old scan. New tracks made for Forza 5 and up were pretty good, but I wonder if we'll see some carryovers in this aspect as well.
According to Chris Esaki at the 9:17 from Forza Monthly, they went out and "recaptured" all the real-world tracks. So in this case, "built from the ground up" applies.

 
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Good to see FordGTGuy still fighting the good fight :lol:

I'm honestly surprised that people are surprised they're lying about the ground up thing, T10 have consistently lied since FM2 onwards IIRC, they're the kings of PR ********. At this point I give up on ever hoping to see a proper R32 or Silvia model (among many others) in these games, we'll be playing Forza Motorsport 20 in 2050 and we'll still be using the same R32 model sourced from 2004
 
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my issues with past forzas were never car models or graphics anyways. Most people will never care.

Maybe they’re exaggerating how rebuilt the game is, but they’ve surely been doing something for 6 years. It’s just disappointing how little of the actual game they’ve actually shown off besides jerking off to reflections and dirt effects.
 
I might have missed some, but apart from the car and track list, here's the info given out:


All tracks will have full dynamic time of day and weather. Changes in the time of day will affect ambient temperatures, which in turn will directly affect track surface temperatures. Tire grip will also be affected by these changes, as well as rubbering in, and weather changes.

Featuring a completely overhauled physics engine with 48 times the fidelity of its predecessors, this may be the most realistic Forza yet. That starts with the tires, which now have eight points of contact for physics calculations, rather than just one, and are updated 360 times a second.

Based on fan feedback, FM is also set to feature tire and fuel management, new “in-depth” car building, as well as multiple tire compounds. The latter isn’t specifically new to the franchise and is more of a returning feature, as it was last seen in Forza Motorsport 2 back in 2007. With various compounds, players are forced to take such variables as tire life, grip, and responsiveness into consideration.

Another area of improvement of which players will likely already be aware is the “super realistic” new suspension model. That’s set to simulate some rather complex aspects of suspension movement, including roll center, squat, dive, and dynamic force propagation.

The upcoming game also features new damage simulation and is reproduced “down to the individual scratches on the bodywork”. This includes the directionality of the damage and how the paint peels away at the exposed and raised edges, wheel abrasions, as well as dirt buildup.

Ray tracing looks to be a key feature of the new FM as well, bringing out incredible details such as those in engine bays, which have complex self-reflection. As Greenawalt highlighted earlier, ray tracing will also feature in the game “on track”, which seems to mean during gameplay and not specific cutscenes or replays.

While FH5 features ray tracing only in Forzavista mode, full-on-track ray tracing in FM should make the game feel and look more realistic than it ever has. Cars will reflect onto other cars, in their mirrors, as well as the bodywork, brake rotors, and wings, all in real-time.

According to the game’s official site, FM will run at 4K resolution and 60fps on Xbox Series X — though the console is capable of 120fps — with Series S capped at 1080p and 60fps. There’s no mention of resolution and frame rates for PC.

From: https://forza.net/news/forza-year-in-review-2021

You’ve asked for deeper, more authentic multiplayer racing, and we set out to make that a reality in this new Forza Motorsport with a focus on growing skills and building communities. The structure of what we’ve been testing with the community is essentially a race weekend, featuring Open Practice, Qualifying, and a Featured Race with a calendar of both active and upcoming events taking place around the world.

What happens on the track with our testers is some of the best feedback we can get and that’s why we’ve had community organizers such as TORA involved. With all the changes to tire compounds, tire wear, and fuel, we’re also doubling down on endurance racing. In our last playtest, we had an Open Practice and Qualifying event up for hours. Players could practice and qualify when it is most convenient for them, then leave and return for the main event.

This new approach to endurance racing provides us with unique scenarios to experiment with. For example, we can create qualifiers during the week and host the Featured Race on the weekend, or qualify during the day and race at night.

We also want to help players unlock their fastest selves through a new corner mastery system in Open Practice. It’s designed to better focus your practice sessions on the real tricky areas of the track like double apexes – we consider those your “enemies.” We’re shaping this corner mastery system into something more social and connected that goes beyond simple per-track leaderboards and instead creates an experience where players compete and compare corner scores in real-time.


(I recommend watching the whole thing)
From:

They do say that they have updated the way that the AI works, and that has resulted in AI being as fast as the Forza RC players without the need to rubberband.

They have also said on older Forza Monthly streams that Forza Race Regulations will be fully implemented for online races and that Experimental Drag will also be a full-fledged feature for the new Forza Motorsport.

(Drag racing)


(FRR)


Also to add is the "Car building" based single-player career mode

Well, I’m eager to finally see footage of a lot of these features as well as up to date info on their progress, since you are citing sources that go as far back as 2019.

And that’s my point: they wasted no time going into detail about the work that went into graphics and showing that off. But for gameplay, all we have are articles and interviews that are a few years-old now and we got told to wait for the coming months to hear more about the career and multiplayer. But hey, at least we know the single player is centered around “car building” with no further context.
 
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