Gamers/Streamers Swatting Megathread

  • Thread starter FoRiZon
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I don't know what the SWAT handbook says on incidents like this but I doubt, "let the murderer who's spread gasoline all around the house go back inside and just bring out the bullhorn" is part of the protocol. In hindsight it's easy to see the guy shouldn't have been shot but I don't envy these guys and the split second decisions they have to make. Mistakes will be made, several dozen a year I would expect, given the tens of millions of interactions with police every year.

Going by what friends who are SWAT team members back in Michigan have told me, the handbook basically says discharging a weapon is your last resort and that you should attempt to disable the suspect through non-lethal means. Tear gas, flashbangs, strobe lights, or even rubber bullets would have made the outcome of this situation better. Finch would still have had a really bad night, but he wouldn't be dead.

Also, given the amount of cover, the officers had when you look at the video there's almost no justification for feeling threatened. If Finch did have a gun in his waistband, at most it'd be a handgun which isn't terribly accurate at range - especially with a high powered spotlight in your eyes. They should have waited until they verified he pulled a gun and then fired. The officer obviously didn't bother to verify the target before pulling the trigger.
 
Fair point. I actually considered it, but I didn't elucidate explicitly. Allow me to do so now.

The only source of information that they have that there's a murderer holding his family hostage with gasoline around the house is an anonymous phone call. SWAT teams should be well aware at this point that SWATting exists.

I don't think it's reasonable to take a shot at an unarmed man (assuming he turned around and walked inside) based on a single anonymous phone call. For all the SWAT team knows, he could have killed the family already and so shooting him accomplishes nothing. They have about as much information to suggest that as to suggest that he's a murderer holding hostages.

I mean, they don't even know if the guy on the porch is the "murderer". All they know is a male walked out of the house to see what the noise is. They assumed that the only male free to do so would be the "murderer", based on an anonymous phone call. That's a big assumption to start shooting at someone with.

It should be the start, but I'm not suggesting that they just sit there and wait. They can approach and attempt to gather more information, or breach if they deem it reasonable and safe to do so. They are potentially time limited if the report of the situation is accurate, but I don't think that's an excuse to go guns blazing based on a single anonymous report.

Neither do I, but that's why there's training and protocols. Nobody can be expected to make good decisions in such high stress and limited time situations. For the vast majority, it should simply be following procedure that you have practised and discussed for significant periods of time in the peace of your own station.

If shooting Andrew Finch in that situation is part of the protocol, the protocol is wrong. Which is sort of what I've been getting at, it's not so much about the decision that was made. It's about the procedures and thinking that led to putting that officer in that situation and training him to respond in that way.

I give the officer a little credit in that he too should have thought about what he was doing and identified that the procedure was extreme, but the larger problem to me is the system that creates situations in which the "correct" choice is to shoot people.
As I mentioned earlier, in hindsight it's easy to see the correct choice because we now know of course that the victim was completely innocent. In the moment though, you have what you think is a potential mass murderer who only has to close the door in a fraction of a second and you've lost all control of the situation and could have multiple deaths on your hands in a matter of a minute or less. Imagine for a moment that it was all true, that he reached for his waistband, then turned and closed the door immediately, ran downstairs with a lighter and started shooting and burning. Within seconds you could have a half dozen casualties. The same hindsight arguments would have taken place. "They had a shot why didn't they shoot? Well protocol is to not shoot until you're sure who it is. But you had a 911 call telling you exactly what was taking place you should have taken him out that's what we pay you for, to make those tough decisions. What if it was a swatting though? But it wasn't...."...etc.

Going by what friends who are SWAT team members back in Michigan have told me, the handbook basically says discharging a weapon is your last resort and that you should attempt to disable the suspect through non-lethal means. Tear gas, flashbangs, strobe lights, or even rubber bullets would have made the outcome of this situation better. Finch would still have had a really bad night, but he wouldn't be dead.

Also, given the amount of cover, the officers had when you look at the video there's almost no justification for feeling threatened. If Finch did have a gun in his waistband, at most it'd be a handgun which isn't terribly accurate at range - especially with a high powered spotlight in your eyes. They should have waited until they verified he pulled a gun and then fired. The officer obviously didn't bother to verify the target before pulling the trigger.
The gun isn't the only threat though. He supposedly has a house full of hostages, weapons and gasoline spread around ready to be ignited instantly. All he had to do was close the door and they'd have lost total control of the situation.
 
As I mentioned earlier, in hindsight it's easy to see the correct choice because we now know of course that the victim was completely innocent. In the moment though, you have what you think is a potential mass murderer who only has to close the door in a fraction of a second and you've lost all control of the situation and could have multiple deaths on your hands in a matter of a minute or less. Imagine for a moment that it was all true, that he reached for his waistband, then turned and closed the door immediately, ran downstairs with a lighter and started shooting and burning. Within seconds you could have a half dozen casualties. The same hindsight arguments would have taken place. "They had a shot why didn't they shoot? Well protocol is to not shoot until you're sure who it is. But you had a 911 call telling you exactly what was taking place you should have taken him out that's what we pay you for, to make those tough decisions. What if it was a swatting though? But it wasn't...."...etc.

It still comes down to the fact that you're basing that shot on a single, anonymous phone call. As far as the hindsight arguments, the correct response is "We don't shoot people unless we've confirmed that they're the target. We hadn't, and so that's not a valid shot. This was a terrible tragedy but the police do not shoot people without appropriate identification."

If people don't understand that, 🤬 them. Confirming your target is Gun Handling 101. If you're trying to shoot a murderer, you don't shoot the first person you see and call it good.

I understand that people get emotional in the wake of a tragedy, regardless of outcome. But that's why you choose the course of action that is most appropriate for all situations and stay consistent with it. I don't think a country where anonymous 911 calls are automatically treated as justification for shooting someone is a safer country. Apart from the people who get shot unnecessarily, it undermines the faith that the public should be able to have that their police will protect the innocent and only use force against those who deserve it.

In the US, anyone who is concealed carrying is a potential mass murderer who only has to take a fraction of a second to draw their weapon and start firing. Do you take a shot at them, just in case? I don't feel like you're quite following through on what happens if you apply the logic of "an anonymous phone call is justification for shooting an unidentified target" to policing in general.

Honestly, it's the exact reason why Second Amendment advocates are so vociferous. If that's the standard of evidence police need to start shooting, then I imagine a lot of people will take that as good reason to simply shoot police on sight. And I could see the logic behind that. If the police can shoot you on the say so of basically anyone, then the safest thing to do is to either remove the police as a threat or make yourself so dangerous that they have no desire to come anywhere near you.

Even if the call was accurate about the hostages and gasoline, and the man that exited the house was indeed the murderer who was on the phone, it's still a bad shot. You can't take that shot, because the only evidence of lethal means or intent is a single, anonymous phone call. I say that's not enough to be considering ending someone's life.

You talk about hindsight, but let's take that out of the picture and generalise. Say you have ten similar cases a year, which is probably not unreasonable across the country. You have a phone call. You have an unidentified man exiting a house of his own volition to investigate noise/lights. He makes an odd movement. At this point, you don't know if it's another Andrew Finch or if this is a legit psychopath. You don't have time to consider the options in the moment, but that's why you sat down in training at the station last week and worked out what to do in these situations. You discussed it thoroughly, went through the pros and cons of all the possible actions and chose the one that will consistently lead to the best outcomes over a number of cases.

What do you do, and why? How does your answer benefit the community in the long term over multiple similar scenarios?

The gun isn't the only threat though. He supposedly has a house full of hostages, weapons and gasoline spread around ready to be ignited instantly. All he had to do was close the door and they'd have lost total control of the situation.

Not really, no. They have no less control than they already had. The guy walking outside was fortuitous. They (presumably) had a plan if he didn't do so. They simply get to continue with that.

Also, I feel like you're over-estimating the threat of a house soaked in gasoline. Firstly, it can't be everywhere because it would be impossible to breathe. Standing over a puddle of gasoline is not pleasant. Realistically, he's got half a dozen gallons spread around a handful of rooms, probably not right where he and the hostages are. Secondly, a house doesn't become an inferno immediately. You see fire or smoke, you have an opportunity to rush the house if you wish. The 911 operator will have hooked in the fire department the moment he mentioned gasoline, so they'll be right behind you. Frankly, the concern is for the lives of the hostages, and they're at far more threat from the lunatic with the gun than the gasoline soaked house. If he lights the house, the second thing he does is shoot them, and the third is shoot himself. Fire is the least of their problems and really doesn't factor into the threat.

Even assuming the phone call was accurate, if the murderer walks back inside it is by no means a given that there are no good outcomes. And this is also assuming that if the shot wasn't taken when it was, he walks inside. Do you start to see how there's this enormous pile of assumptions that have to be made to even start attempting to justify that shot?

That is why you identify your target. So you don't assume. A trustworthy police force does not use lethal force on assumptions.
 
Possibly unpopular opinion, but I would support executing the swatter, as I doubt anything else will properly deter more cringy "pranksters" from following in this guy's footsteps.

I'm not sure execution is an appropriate sentence for a prank phone call. It's definitely not fair to hold pranksters accountable for the actions or misconduct of the police. Pranksters are accountable for fraudulent information provided to authorities.

Let's just not allow law enforcement officers to legally carry firearms, and then if an officer discharges one in the midst of an altercation, they are in clear violation of the law.

I think different rules of engagement and steep penalties (jail time) for police would be enough of a step.

In the US, anyone who is concealed carrying is a potential mass murderer who only has to take a fraction of a second to draw their weapon and start firing. Do you take a shot at them, just in case?

This and... even drawing your firearm to defend yourself against people who break in to your home (even if they potentially falsely identify themselves as police) is a reasonable response. And we've seen people shot for holding a gun in their own house. That's not a criminal activity.
 
I'm not sure execution is an appropriate sentence for a prank phone call. It's definitely not fair to hold pranksters accountable for the actions or misconduct of the police. Pranksters are accountable for fraudulent information provided to authorities.

It is when a death results and you are on a commission of a crime. Take an armed robbery for example. If anyone died during the robbery, then everyone involved in that robbery was charged with murder including the getaway driver.

The SWATter broke three crimes that resulted in the fatal shot.

1. It is a misdemeanor in Kansas to falsely report something to emergency services.

2. It is a Felony in Kansas to use hardware or software to falsely report your location (all calls to police are traced)

3. It is a greater felony to falsely report a violent crime.

If he isn't charged with murder, then I don't know in what case can a greater example can be made of that SWATting is wrong here.
 
If he isn't charged with murder, then I don't know in what case can a greater example can be made of that SWATting is wrong here.

I'm not sure about murder. You could probably make a pretty strong case for manslaughter, but murder usually requires the intent to kill. The intent of the SWATter was not to kill, hence manslaughter (unlawful killing without intent) is probably as high as it gets.

I think @Danoff is right though that execution isn't an appropriate sentence for a prank phone call, even one that was very, very dangerous. I'm all in favour of throwing the book at the guy, but execution seems like an emotional response, not a rational one. That punishment doesn't fit the crime.
 
I'm not sure about murder. You could probably make a pretty strong case for manslaughter, but murder usually requires the intent to kill. The intent of the SWATter was not to kill, hence manslaughter (unlawful killing without intent) is probably as high as it gets.
As he said, if death occurs during the commissioning of crime murder comes into play and it doesn't matter who actually does the killing. What's in question to me is if SWAT should be considered a deadly weapon, I wouldn't brandish a firearm to say "I'm just kidding"

If SWAT is considered that out of control we have much larger issues on our plate.

I think @Danoff is right though that execution isn't an appropriate sentence for a prank phone call, even one that was very, very dangerous. I'm all in favour of throwing the book at the guy, but execution seems like an emotional response, not a rational one. That punishment doesn't fit the crime.

A murder charge might not even fit the crime but in our judicial system it's become common practice to place super high charges on defendants to force them into plea deals. I can see that happening here, charge him with murder and he'll sign a manslaughter confession. He'll serve maybe 6 months in jail and 3-5 years supervised probation.(He may or may not have to carry the felon badge either if his actions can be differed)

That is my best guess.
 
As he said, if death occurs during the commissioning of crime murder comes into play and it doesn't matter who actually does the killing.

Firstly, it's death during commission of a felony. Further, this does not apply to all felonies. Sez Wikipedia, "many states explicitly list what offenses qualify in a felony murder statute". Kansas is one such.

https://law.justia.com/codes/kansas/2009/chapter21/statutes_11800.html

Unsurprisingly, I can't see anything listed on there that would seem to relate to falsely reporting location or falsely reporting a crime. I imagine the state court could choose to rule differently, but I don't see why they would. Judges usually being selected because they're eminently sensible human beings, I find it hard to believe that one would choose to link a felonious phone call into a murder charge.
 
Yeah I know it's during a felony, I always forget how nitpicky this site is. It could easily be argued this was a planned felony, as in planned beforehand, thought out, all that. Changes things quite a bit in our system because it's not in the heat of passion nor are the possible consequences ignored. I know this is wrong, I know right from wrong, I'm going to plan it out and execute it anyway, and it's a felony. Oops someone died.

Either way, I'd wager anything I can afford to lose that my prediction will come very very close to true.
 
It could easily be argued this was a planned felony, as in planned beforehand, thought out, all that.

But it wasn't. How would you even start to argue that? That a bunch of throwaway comments over a video game amounts to planning to commit a felony? Pull the other one. Next you'll be telling me that every 12 year old rage child online who threatens to come over and rape my mother is planning a felony.

Either way, I'd wager anything I can afford to lose that my prediction will come very very close to true.

That he'll be charged with murder, that he'll plea bargain to manslaughter and serve 6 months in jail and 3-5 years probation? Whatever. I can't believe that you're arguing against someone making baseless claims with no evidence in the Flat Earth thread, and yet here you're happy to pull this out of your backside.

I guess everyone has something that they're happy to make claims about based solely on their own authority and "expertise". Even when faced with facts to the contrary; in this case, that he can't be charged with murder because he didn't commit a felony that the felony murder rule applies to in Kansas.

I already provided the Kansas statute, so let's try something a little more basic; a Wikipedia article. Perhaps that will convince you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Kansas)

Note "during an inherently dangerous felony". Making a fraudulent report or concealing your location is not an inherently dangerous felony.
 
Well, I live in the U.S., I have my whole life, I've been around the legal system, my whole life, I've seen how things go first hand. I'm not trying to win some silly internet tough guy fight I'm just posting my opinion based on a hell of a lot more than some quick google wiki searches would produce.

Think what you like, it is very possible for the guy to be charged with some sort of murder, charge and conviction are different things but if I go on and on I feel it a waste of time. Our system doesn't work the way you think it does.

Anyway, the kid is in some serious trouble here, no slap on the wrist this time that's for certain. I'm beginning to even wonder if the feds don't get involved this time, not sure if it's possible to finagle an across state lines, or using interstate communications or something along those lines for justification but it's all but impossible to win against the fed in anyway so there is that.

It's so strange how conversations here turn into such condescending pissing matches but a case such as this can set precedence for the future.

TL;DR

This kid is up the creek and someone else suggesting charges of murder and any sort of stiff penalty to follow is not a stretch. It's not.
 
Our system doesn't work the way you think it does.

Correction. I'm not basing my argument on what I think. I'm basing it on the stated legal documents for Kansas.

So your argument boils down to the fact that you think you know Kansas law better than the actual statute. I think there's probably no point arguing that. Congratulations, you win.

This kid is up the creek and someone else suggesting charges of murder and any sort of stiff penalty to follow is not a stretch. It's not.

Yet you can't explain why. You simply ask us to trust your opinion, based on:

Well, I live in the U.S., I have my whole life, I've been around the legal system, my whole life, I've seen how things go first hand. I'm not trying to win some silly internet tough guy fight I'm just posting my opinion based on a hell of a lot more than some quick google wiki searches would produce.

How interesting.

One would think that someone with knowledge of the legal system from being around it their whole life and seeing how things go first hand might actually have some insight or reasoning to go along with the statements made. I mean, you're as aware as I am that the word of a random Joe on the internet isn't worth the pixels it's made up of without at least some sort of explanation to go along with it.

I don't know you from Moses, yet you're asking me to accept your authority on law over the written Kansas legal code?

If you want to know, this is why conversations on the internet turn condescending. Because how else do you respond to a random user who claims intimate knowledge and authority with no reasoning to back it up? All you can really do is poke fun at them and hope that they realise that in order to have a real discussion the users need to share the structure behind their arguments.

I've shared the information that's led me to draw my opinion, and you haven't discredited it. You've shared that you've got your opinion from your life experience, but you're offering absolutely nothing about the specific situations and reasoning that might lead you to come to a different conclusion. How can we, the ignorant internet public, judge the worth of your argument without that?
 
Yup, I know you know, I know you google things real quick.

He could be charged with murder, that could happen. His case could set a legal precedence.

Just from a quick skim of your post, I think I see where you draw your opinion from, I hope so as I don't want to think less of you than who you are or discredit your passion or anything like that. Yes the conclusions you come to are most reasonable.

I'm being a bit lazy here because I doubt your sincerity tbh, we could go into all the meat and bones of the mater if it's something peaking your interest to see how the u.s. system works. I'm quite sure I'd be learning right along side you 👍

For now I'm just going to go back to a statement I made directly about the kid's predicament and how it will be dealt with. You are not going to find black and white answers in a wiki article, this is something(while not uber huge in the grand scheme) that is going to be under a closer eye, something our society is going to want a response to, etc, you see I'm sure our people sooner or later get tired of chalking things up one way or another, that is how procedures change.

If your conclusion is the kid just made a funny and all of the u.s. is simply going to one off it you are wrong. Broken system? who cares cause wiki says, nope, well that should be the case the majority of the time tbh however...

I believe(based on who I am and all that jazz, experience whatever else seemingly insignificant, like education) we'll see some true effort put forth by our leaders on this.

To circle all the wagons and get back to the one thing I said earlier that you didn't respond to(and don't worry, I know why you didn't and it's not an insult at all as there were more pressing things to say) SWAT needs to be addressed. The best thing that could come out of all of this is that simple fact alone. I contend and make no bones, the average swat in my country is bollox and I'd rather not see another military tank in my neighborhood again thank you ;)

Don't worry, I don't get mad, conversation is something best done with ego's left at the door.
 
To circle all the wagons and get back to the one thing I said earlier that you didn't respond to(and don't worry, I know why you didn't and it's not an insult at all as there were more pressing things to say) SWAT needs to be addressed.

Oh, absolutely. As far as I can tell the average SWAT team is over-equipped and under-prepared. I absolutely see the need for their existence, but I think if you're giving a team the power and the weaponry to respond to these situations quickly (as is kind of the point) they also need to have the training and tactical framework to back that up. If they're bringing military grade equipment to a scene, they need military grade training at an absolute minimum.

If nothing else, the incident exposes a whole lot of flaws in the emergency response system that are very open to abuse by bad actors. Honestly, terrorists could do a lot of damage at very little risk to themselves simply by using the same tactics these kids did. While appropriate punishment for this particular situation would be great to see, I agree that the greater value going forward is to address the flaws in the policing and emergency responder systems that made it so easy for someone to instigate this sort of fiasco.

If there were only one thing to come of all this, that would be my choice.
 
I already provided the Kansas statute, so let's try something a little more basic; a Wikipedia article. Perhaps that will convince you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Kansas)

Note "during an inherently dangerous felony". Making a fraudulent report or concealing your location is not an inherently dangerous felony.
He made a fraudulant report that he knew would set the SWAT team into action. So the question would be, is it inherently dangerous to send a squad of armed men to a house that they think contains a murderer, holding a family hostage with gasoline spread around the house? I think the answer is yes. Involuntary manslaughter is the most likely outcome IMO. It only requires that you prove someone was reckless and irresponsible. I'd guess that and second degree murder charges will be on the table for dramatic effect but the involuntary manslaughter conviction will prevail.
 
He made a fraudulant report that he knew would set the SWAT team into action.

We know that that's true, what's harder to prove is if the death of the prankee was a reasonable expectation. If I have a pizza delivered to you as a prank then am I liable if you eat the pizza and die of listeria, or if the delivery person dies in an accident en route? We know that there's a risk involved but is it reasonable to expect that the worst that could happen will happen? It's reasonable to expect that a SWAT team will have good operational training, ability and awareness despite hindsight suggesting that in this case they may not have. Surely it isn't reasonable to expect that if I fraudulently cause a SWAT team to be dispatched to somebody's house that they will then be killed?

To my mind there are two separate ideal outcomes from this. The first is that SWAT-(t)ing is much more harshly punished than it seems to have been previously. The second is that the operational behaviour of SWAT teams is thoroughly, impartially examined. What should have just been a stupid, idiotic, deeply unpleasant prank has ended in the worst possible outcome. The prank shouldn't have begun and the operation shouldn't have been concluded as it was but it's important that we separate the events along their logical lines.
 
We know that that's true, what's harder to prove is if the death of the prankee was a reasonable expectation. If I have a pizza delivered to you as a prank then am I liable if you eat the pizza and die of listeria, or if the delivery person dies in an accident en route? We know that there's a risk involved but is it reasonable to expect that the worst that could happen will happen?

^ These pretty much sum up my thoughts on the subject. The only real counter argument that I can see is that we all knew this would happen eventually right? We all knew eventually someone innocent would get shot by the police. The question is, did we know that because it is dangerous to falsely send police to someone's house, or did we know that because we know that police training leaves them trigger happy?

I'd also say that we all know that eventually if you send enough prank pizzas to enough people that one of the pizza delivery people will get killed in an accident. It's a statistical likelihood if you pull that lever enough times. But none of us knew that this prank, this pizza, this police call, would result in someone innocent getting shot.

It was a prank call, and the prankster(s) deserve serious punishment. It did heighten the danger around the lives of those involved, but nobody expected someone to get shot as a result of this call - certainly not the prankster. I think it's a sad state of affairs that people think it's so likely that our police will kill an innocent person that even calling them is considered murder.
 
It was a prank call. It did heighten the danger around the lives of those involved, but nobody expected someone to get shot as a result of this call - certainly not the prankster. I think it's a sad state of affairs that people think it's so likely that our police will kill an innocent person that even calling them is considered murder.
How can you know this though? I certainly don't see how someone calling in the SWAT for a fake hostage situation wouldn't be trying to get the victim shot and maybe killed by the squad. It goes quite a bit further than a standard "prank call" and it seems awfully stupid to lump it in with a fake pizza delivery call.
 
How can you know this though? I certainly don't see how someone calling in the SWAT for a fake hostage situation wouldn't be trying to get the victim shot and maybe killed by the squad. It goes quite a bit further than a standard "prank call" and it seems awfully stupid to lump it in with a fake pizza delivery call.
I agree, but on the other hand, it is also stupid to just use Kansas law to make any legal thoughts as to how they would charge this 🤬. If anything, this would be a federal matter, and there is plenty of malice to go around.
 
How can you know this though? I certainly don't see how someone calling in the SWAT for a fake hostage situation wouldn't be trying to get the victim shot and maybe killed by the squad. It goes quite a bit further than a standard "prank call" and it seems awfully stupid to lump it in with a fake pizza delivery call.

It's definitely further than a pizza delivery call in terms of damages. To show that the prankster was trying to get the person killed, you'd have to show that there was some reason that they had to expect that the person would be killed by the police arriving. There would have to have been a conversation about "if the police show up at my door, I'll go down in a blaze of glory" or some nonsense like that.

The approach with cases like this (meaning... all cases I guess) is not to assume that there might have been some reason to know. You proceed based on the facts at hand. New facts may change the conclusion, but they also may never come. If evidence comes to light that the prankster knew that the prankee would respond violently, you might be on to something (it still wouldn't be murder though).

I'm responding to the fact pattern I'm aware of. If new information comes to light, I might change my conclusion.
 
Involuntary manslaughter is a pretty wide open charge. You only need to act recklessly during the commission of a crime, even a misdemeanor in many cases, and cause someone's death for it to be a reasonable charge.
 
stupid to lump it in with a fake pizza delivery call.
Not when it's used to express law of averages as it relates to pranks. Suppose the deliverer dies in a motor vehicle collision they would not have been in if not needlessly delivering said pizza, or perhaps more pertinent is the possibility of a hostile interaction when a pizza to be paid for is presented to an individual who did not want it.

Neither of these possibilities are really the point, though, rather that the possibility for something to happen is a certainty if the conditions necessary for it to happen are met (or setup, as is the issue with either prank) enough times.

While it's clearly possible for someone to be killed in an altercation involving a police force responding to a prank call, I don't believe (and look at anyone who does with an expression that says "You're an idiot.") it can be expected in a particular instance.

I sincerely hope those responsible for setting up this encounter are punished, but I also sincerely hope that punishment isn't comparable to that for a premeditated murder because of the implications therein.
 
It's definitely further than a pizza delivery call in terms of damages. To show that the prankster was trying to get the person killed, you'd have to show that there was some reason that they had to expect that the person would be killed by the police arriving. There would have to have been a conversation about "if the police show up at my door, I'll go down in a blaze of glory" or some nonsense like that.

The approach with cases like this (meaning... all cases I guess) is not to assume that there might have been some reason to know. You proceed based on the facts at hand. New facts may change the conclusion, but they also may never come. If evidence comes to light that the prankster knew that the prankee would respond violently, you might be on to something (it still wouldn't be murder though).

I'm responding to the fact pattern I'm aware of. If new information comes to light, I might change my conclusion.
The fact these swatters talk about an active hostage situation and not just generic suspicious behavior is key. They're calling in a team that, for all it knows, might be forced to shoot to kill.
 
The fact these swatters talk about an active hostage situation and not just generic suspicious behavior is key. They're calling in a team that, for all it knows, might be forced to shoot to kill.

That's not done with the intent or expectation of getting someone killed, that's done to get your door broken down and a swat team in your house. I think involuntary manslaughter is reasonable.

involuntary manslaughter
Elements of the Offense

Three elements must be satisfied in order for someone to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter:

  1. Someone was killed as a result of the defendant's actions.
  2. The act either was inherently dangerous to others or done with reckless disregard for human life.
  3. The defendant knew or should have known his or her conduct was a threat to the lives of others.
It's element 1 that I'm struggling with a bit.
 
It's element 1 that I'm struggling with a bit.
If anything, the question that we are all debating is whether or not Barriss had malice when he made the call. That is going to be the difference between manslaughter and murder.
 
He made a fraudulant report that he knew would set the SWAT team into action. So the question would be, is it inherently dangerous to send a squad of armed men to a house that they think contains a murderer, holding a family hostage with gasoline spread around the house? I think the answer is yes.

I think that's speaks a lot to the inherent risk of interacting with the police at all in the US, which is really the larger topic here.

How can you know this though? I certainly don't see how someone calling in the SWAT for a fake hostage situation wouldn't be trying to get the victim shot and maybe killed by the squad. It goes quite a bit further than a standard "prank call" and it seems awfully stupid to lump it in with a fake pizza delivery call.

SWATting isn't super common, but it's not exactly rare either. People aren't getting shot left or right, they generally just get the bejeesus scared out of them when armoured men with automatic weapons bust into their home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

Based on prior events, I think it's reasonable to assume that was the intended outcome by the SWATter. Danger was inherent, but death was not really even a likely outcome nor was it likely to be intended. It was probably assumed that the SWAT team would do their due diligence to avoid an outcome like this.

The fact these swatters talk about an active hostage situation and not just generic suspicious behavior is key. They're calling in a team that, for all it knows, might be forced to shoot to kill.

They've simply learned which situations are likely to get a quick response with a SWAT team. They don't want a couple of local cops knocking on the door to say "Hi, what's up?" in the next hour or two. They want an armed team busting into the house within the next 15 minutes. Yes, they're calling in people that are ready to potentially shoot to kill, but I think that's part of the glee from the prank.

If anything, the question that we are all debating is whether or not Barriss had malice when he made the call. That is going to be the difference between manslaughter and murder.

I'd say the difference between manslaughter and murder will be intent. It's going to be hard to prove that the call was made with the express intent of getting someone killed, rather than the intent to simply scare them. The phone call was clearly malicious, it was intended to cause at the very least mental harm to the victim and probably damage to his property also.
 
If anything, the question that we are all debating is whether or not Barriss had malice when he made the call. That is going to be the difference between manslaughter and murder.
The presence of malice is apparent, the degree is not.
 
It's element 1 that I'm struggling with a bit.

I think that a decent lawyer will avoid charges of involuntary manslaughter by requiring the State to show that "the defendant should have known the act threatened the lives of others". It also depends on any nuances of Kansas law that cover degrees of separation - a defence lawyer would say that the call was Act 1, the response was Act 2. The LEA decided what to do about the call and it was ultimately their decision tree which produced the outcome.
 
What's the struggle?

I think that a decent lawyer will avoid charges of involuntary manslaughter by requiring the State to show that "the defendant should have known the act threatened the lives of others". It also depends on any nuances of Kansas law that cover degrees of separation - a defence lawyer would say that the call was Act 1, the response was Act 2. The LEA decided what to do about the call and it was ultimately their decision tree which produced the outcome.

Yup, that was my issue as well. How directly can you correlate the call with the death. It's not at all clear to me that it could be proven in court that the call got the person shot.
 
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