Gaming and Social Justice (The #Gamergate Thread)

[Jawehawk]

Any sentences from me involveing Anita would have a lot of 🤬's, 🤬's and 🤬's in it, so I better not get into it.

I don't condone death threats, but she takes idiocy to a whole new level. There was a time where feminists were fighting for equal (and deserved) rights. Now they're just bitching. I wonder if anyone ever complained about how most people you kill in video games are males, and that many of them are displayed as rapists, murderers and low lives.

Anita uses random examples from random games, and make sure she doesn't show other examples that counter what she says from those very same games.

 

[RACECAR]

Exactly. And that's where Sarkeesian loses all credibility - any existing content which might actually support her demands is automatically constructed as being sexist simply because it involves a male character, because if the game industry makes any progress independently of her, she's no longer relevant. It's a bit like that episode of "The Simpsons" where the kids start playing pee-wee football, and Lisa strides onto the field, proudly and boldly announcing "What position do you have for a *girl*?" and Ned Flanders is happy to take her on, as there are already three girls on the team.

And as if she doesn't already have holes in her argument, she's also inconsistent with what she wants. In the video with the "Damsel in Distress" topic, she seems to imply that she wants women in a strong role and lead protagonist (which is funny because if she actually looked, we already have some including one of the most famous examples in the form of a woman called Lara Croft) but in another video I just found, she argues that Strong Female characters (you know, the ones she so badly wants?) are "Only strong because they think they are men". Yep, what she was harping on so much about in one video is apparently not what she wants in another.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Consider the Disney films: once upon a time, the main female characters were helpless young women who needed the aid of men, such as in the case of "Sleeping Beauty". By the 1990s, Disney Princesses bucked this trend, with female characters such as Jasmine in "Aladdin" able to reject the constraints placed upon them by society (and dominant male figures such as the Sultan of Agrabah being recast as a father concerned for his daughter's wellbeing). By the time "Frozen" and the live-action adaptation of "Maleficent" came around, women were reimagined as confident, capable, and with the power to directly reshape the world. All in all, it has been very progressive, and is probably one of the reasons why "Frozen" in particular has proven so popular with young girls.

These trends can be found in the video game industry, if you take the time to look. Lara Croft naturally springs to mind, even if the reasons for her gender were sexist (the programmer said that if he was going to spend all day staring at a character, then it was going to be a character he enjoyed looking at). But take Yuna in "Final Fantasy X", for example - she starts off as a talented woman who is expected to lay down her life for the benefit of society by a male-dominated religious hierarchy. By the end of the game, she question and rejects her faith, is branded a heretic and a traitor, but is still willing to sacrifice her life for the world. Likewise, Lulu is presented as one of the few people in the world who takes a subjective view of the church, whereas male characters like Wakka blindly follow its doctrine and show hostility towards those who don't.

Similarly, Elizabeth in "Bioshock Infinite" is a young, capable and confident woman, with the ability to directly manipulate reality. She never needs protection, and frequently aids the character through resupply, environmental manipulation, or by spotting enemies. If she ever misuses her powers, it is not because she is a woman, but because she is a human being, and so subject to the same irrational and emotional drives that affect everyone.

Consider also the "Metal Gear Solid" series. In creating Solid Snake, Hideo Kojima deliberately made him as neutral as possible, because he is a surrogate for the player. Committing to any substantial backstory would isolate or alienate the player. In "Sons of Liberty", he deliberately introduced Raiden as the player character, because where MGS was about Snake's experience of the world, SOL was about the world's experience of Solid Snake. And the same applies to Jason Brody or Ajay Ghale from the "Far Cry" series - they are digital representations of the player, and large parts of the game are meant to critically examine how the player interacts with the world. And I don't see how any of them - Snake, Raiden, Jason or Ajay - could do that better as women.

 

[niky]

One could argue that Raiden, despite the love story angle, was purposely designed to be more appealing to women than Solid Snake ever was.

-

Lara Croft has straddled the line between subject and object, though, in the end, she manages to be a strong model for female characters in games, instead of an exploitative caricature as in the Dead Or Alive series.

Female-friendly gaming is getting better nowadays, with MMORPGs and the like bringing games to a whole new level in terms of social interaction. Still, there are those studios that don't get it. While it's hard to argue with the need for eye-candy, sometimes the approach can feel crude and prehistoric, especially in this day and age.

"Double Dragon"

The female, in both cases, is still an object. Not something to hold against the game, considering the rather crude narrative employed in such early games... but even the comeuppance in the end is merely a symbolic victory over anything else... a Feisty Damsel in Distress is still a Damsel in Distress.

A true subversion of the trope would be the Damsel actually rescuing herself... or a Damsel rescuing a man.

Again, though... the series has its roots in a different era, so it's understandable.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

One could argue that Raiden, despite the love story angle, was purposely designed to be more appealing to women than Solid Snake ever was.

I believe Kojima has said Raiden was designed to appeal to Japanese audiences.

 

[niky]

I believe Kojima has said Raiden was designed to appeal to Japanese audiences.

Well, that's what the Japanese audience likes. He's very... erh... Bishonen... an androgynously pretty male that both male and female gamers could relate to.

EDIT: apparently they did reference Bishonen in the creation of the character...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raiden_(Metal_Gear)

 

[Roger the Horse]

Sarkeesian is usually correct in what she's saying, but her delivery is usually ineffective. Drawn out and passive aggressive, rather than inspiring sympathy in the viewer and enlightening them to the many issues related to gender representation in the media, she instead just infuriates people by boring them with a lengthy reason you suck speech. Sadly, many of these people are idiots, and that's where the threats come in. Hopefully said individuals have now been arrested.

This is a shame, as there is a dire need for better gender representation in the media, but sadly Sarkeesian's videos don't actually do much to help with this.

 

[yabiggoose]

My girlfriend who is a lifelong gamer thinks all of this misogyny and sexist hoo-ha in games is a crock.

That's right, a female thinks it's a bit ridiculous.

I won't even get started on my own opinions.

 

[Imari]

This is a shame, as there is a dire need for better gender representation in the media, but sadly Sarkeesian's videos don't actually do much to help with this.

Is there?

Sometimes I wonder if this is just something that we're expected to agree with because it's trendy. For every scantily clad busty temptress there's probably three muscle bound barbarian hulks. It's all just a fantasy land, and sometimes that's OK.

Sure, there's a need to be vigilant to make sure that women aren't getting passed over simply because they're women. But I don't think that translates directly into "dire need". Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sure there's still sexism out there, but I sure don't see a lot of it, and so sometimes I wonder just how much of these sorts of things are simply people reacting with whatever negative label they can stick on whatever happened to them. Fired from your job? Must have been sexism.

Take Sarkeesian as an example. Say that there's a magic button that we push, and suddenly the video games industry changes to include far more females as main and supporting characters, and females are generally depicted in less derogatory ways. What need does this address? What does it accomplish?

 

[niky]

Women don't like muscular hulks. That's a male fantasy.

What women like is more characters like Raiden. Which is perhaps part of why a lot of male gamers don't like him. They're uncomfortable with the thought of a man as eye-candy.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

People didn't like Raiden because they were expecting to play as Snake. And he was a whiner. The thematic aspect of the character - that Raiden represents the world's experience of Snake - was completely overlooked by most Western gamers.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Watched/listened to some of the videos.

Don't care. Yes there are sexist and racist elements in video games. Yes those things make them more attractive to the target demographic... sex sells... the end.

Well to some people (like me for example) games can be a lot more than mindless entertainment and if you never challenge the status quo then gaming will never evolve. We'll be playing the exact same stuff in decades from now, only shinier.

There's a lot to gain by having more varied representation of women that doesn't just default to sex/eye-candy. Especially in story and character driven games where diversity in both writing and character design can help create more intresting experiences.

Also sex is not the only thing that sells. Look at the last of us, which has sold pretty well, due to it's well written characters. That's what a lot of people in this debate want to see more of.

Sarkeesian is usually correct in what she's saying, but her delivery is usually ineffective. Drawn out and passive aggressive, rather than inspiring sympathy in the viewer and enlightening them to the many issues related to gender representation in the media, she instead just infuriates people by boring them with a lengthy reason you suck speech. Sadly, many of these people are idiots, and that's where the threats come in. Hopefully said individuals have now been arrested.

This is a shame, as there is a dire need for better gender representation in the media, but sadly Sarkeesian's videos don't actually do much to help with this.

I don't really agree with this. I think Sarkeesian has contributed a lot indirectly. She's created a huge amount of discussion and I think that might bring a lot of good in the end.

Edit: There are some devs that has credited her for making them think more of how the portray female characters. Neil Druckmann (The last of us) for example.




Btw, I think NeoGAF has had a lot of interesting discussion on the subject in case anyone is interested.

 

[Joel]

Women don't like muscular hulks. That's a male fantasy.

What women like is more characters like Raiden. Which is perhaps part of why a lot of male gamers don't like him. They're uncomfortable with the thought of a man as eye-candy.

The first bit gets brought up a lot, one needs to look no further than pro wrestling to see that the muscular hulks aren't meant to attract females. WWE wrestlers wear speedos in the ring and have huge muscles, yet wrestling really doesn't seem to have much of a female following.

I think part of it is men don't want to admit or aren't consciously aware that a part of the appeal of wrestling or games like God of War is the power fantasy. It doesn't even cross their minds that they're attracted to the muscular guys because it isn't a sexual thing.

My girlfriend who is a lifelong gamer thinks all of this misogyny and sexist hoo-ha in games is a crock.

That's right, a female thinks it's a bit ridiculous.

I won't even get started on my own opinions.

Pack it in folks, equality has been achieved and feminism is over.

 

[yabiggoose]

You must be a pleasure to know if you conduct yourself like that in real life.

 

[Encyclopedia]

You must be a pleasure to know if you conduct yourself like that in real life.

I'm curious why you would bring up your girlfriends opinion. Do you think it's more valid just because she's a woman?

It came of as " a woman thinks sexism/misogyny in games doesn't exist therefor it doesnt."

That would be a blatantly false statement. Especially if you included the industry itself.

 

[niky]

It's actually impossible to see it, once you've learned to look for it.

An interesting article came up on my feed recently:

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting

Wouldn't quite say it's the death throes of an industry. I mean, look, film has been dealing with the feminist movement for a long time, yet a majority of blockbusters are about men.

When a film (Avengers) by geek-favorite and rampant male feminist Joss Whedon flunks the Bechdel test, whereas Michaeel Bay's frat-boyishly male-centric Transformers 4 actually passes it, then it becomes obvious that, despite the dialogue and criticism and large female critic/journalist/observer contingent, the movie industry still obviously makes movies for men... simply because they are written and directed by men. That's not going to change, anytime soon.

-

Same goes for video games. Just expect the more rampantly misogynistic elements to be pushed to the fringe as mainstream games start to adapt to the changing demographic landscape. Which is pretty much what is happening, already, with the top of the sales charts at the moment being taken up by mostly gender neutral games, with the only "for-the-boys" game in the top ten anywhere being GTA5. And that's one you expect, anyway... since it's told from the point of view of misogynistic criminals. (and almost all of the male characters in GTA are and have been evil arses, anyway).

 

[Joel]

You must be a pleasure to know if you conduct yourself like that in real life.

If you refer to this stuff as sexist hoo-ha in real life I'd say the same. Not to mention the whole "I'm not sexist/racist, I have a girlfriend/black friend!" thing. I don't conduct myself the same way in real life as I do on an opinions board. The whole point of this subforum is to share and discuss opinions.

This is exactly what I mentioned earlier. Instead of discussing the ideas, you "won't even get started" on what you think of them. Instead of elaborating, it's easier to put up a smokescreen and imply I'm a boring or unlikable person for my opinions.

 

[tankuroded]

Intel apologizes after the backlash surrounding removal of their ads from Gamasutra because they ran an article critical of #gamergate.

The war continues.

 

[zzz_pt]

Thunderf00t has already debunked all this nonsense as well.

 

[Encyclopedia]

I can't stand Thunderfoot. Care to explain what he's "debunked" so that I don't have to watch his video.

 

[Carbonox]

I can't stand Thunderfoot. Care to explain what he's "debunked" so that I don't have to watch his video.

Dare I ask why this is the case?

 

[zzz_pt]

I'm sorry but If you don't want to watch it, I don't have to explain it. That's why I posted Thunderf00t as reference if somoene's interested instead of writing everything he said on the subject of Anita Sarkeesian and her BS.


As side note: Opinions shouldn't be conflicted with the person that holds them. If you don't "stand" thunderf00t and because of that you don't want to hear his opinion, it's your problem. It's good to separate the ideas/opinions from the person who holds them. Separate the message from the source. Focus on the content and not the package.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Dare I ask why this is the case?

His atitudes towards victims of harrassment and rape for example.

 

[Ibonibo]

men and woman should be treated with the same respect. This should go without saying

But some of this feminist crap really bugs me. Getting subject up as "the little men for crossing roads" , words (humanity), the word "Miss" and stuff like that... come on... has the world no other problems than that?

As for video games...while the rise of woman in gaming is clear and undeniable, it still is a boys leisure. Sorry that the industry tries to please them and make money... I guess guys not playing Barbies little Pony farm is sexist

Men and woman are different by nature, brain chemistry, noodle, and all...

Some subjects can be be draged into non sense, this can be one of them, there is still some work to do for discrimination to be gone, but don't exaggerate.

Also how many of these feminists actually use their status as woman to gain something in society? Like "talking" themselves out of a ticket, getting better grades, getting more tips...?? That is sexist too. If I do it it never works

In spain, woman get way more credibility for haressment cases then guys get (by law). Is that sexist?
Sexism goes both way. I know guys who don't use the elevator alone with a woman. She can lie afterwards, and it's the guy that don't get any credibility.
Same goes for divorces and so many other subjects.

In seriousness now, we are not equal in every way, but we all should be treated with the same respect.

Edit:
Gave this way more of my attention than it would be ever needed

Here a short-"ish" video of how she lies



Prisonermonkey came with the Simpsons ref.

I think South Park hits it better. Cartman the Coon, beeing evil, in order to justify him as hero....

Ahhh I hate people like that. It's like vegan hipsters. I get pickels on my behind

 

[Sanji Himura]

MainEvent is has addressed GamerGate several times about the backlash.

I myself won't address it here since it could run afoul of the AUP.

 

[TheDrummingKING]

GamerGate in 60 seconds:



Oh and, Anita doesn't even like video games.

 

[Ibonibo]

I didn't watch the big videos at first and just jumped down....


So it's boils down to having nothing to do with sexism at all.

Just two hypocrites trying to make money, and a complete industry that is corrupt....

Well good I don't visit those websites mentioned (kakatudo, ....)

The black haired hypocrite gets 160k for nothing (south park red skin episode comes to mind) and the other sleeps her way up in order to promote a game about depression and to gain publicity....


Sad little world....

Never backed anything... only bought 3 Alpha built games (warZ & DayZ and Pcars) and it was the last time as it was a mistake, apart from Pcars, both other games where just cash grabs.

Deliver a final product and you get money...

It's sad people like that use the human nature (people want to trust) and the internet for glory and money. Scamming people always existed, and on the internet too, but this is just... wow.... a new level of low in a field I deemed would have more selfrespect

You guys blew my mind with this (the proportion it has, not the fact that it exists)

 

[Zenith]

Idiots like this can only do what they do because people pay attention to them.

Want them to go away? Stop watching videos about them. Stop starting threads about them.

Attention is the new currency on the internet. Stop paying people to do what you disagree with.

 

[Tornado]

Can someone explain to me, simply, what this "gamergate" idiocy even is? It's blown up everywhere, but all I've seen is constant talk of "backlash" towards it with no reference to what "it" even was in the first place; and I'm not particularly interested in watching a 15 minute video where what I assume is a YouTube celebrity decries another YouTube celebrity on the assumption that it is an objective source for the answer.

 

[Encyclopedia]

The black bitch gets 160k for nothing (south park red skin episode comes to mind) and the other sleeps her way up in order to promote a game about depression and to gain publicity....

Speculation at best. There's nothing that proves that her sleeping with a guy working at a gaming publication meant better reviews for her game. It wasn't even the same guy that did the review of her game.


GamerGate is such an obvious anti-feminist movement it's not even funny hence all the screaming about SJW's etc. Journalistic corruption in video games have been going on for years. But suddenly it's a big deal. When there's ben so much more worse crap (and still is) going on, but some woman sleeps around and someone suspects that's the reason her game gets a good review (impossible opinion to have right?).

Where's all the talk about the shady high level stuff in the AAA sphere. Exclusive previews. Hardware gifts, swag etc.? No who cares about that, indie developers and small to medium sized gaming sites are the BIG problem.

I don't buy it. I don't believe for one second that GG as a whole is a movement in good faith.