Gaming and Social Justice (The #Gamergate Thread)

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What is your stance on GamerGate?

  • I am with the pro-GamerGate crowd.

    Votes: 6 19.4%
  • I am with the anti-GamerGate crowd.

    Votes: 11 35.5%
  • I take no stance on this issue.

    Votes: 14 45.2%

  • Total voters
    31
1,678
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TheDrummingKING
#GamerGate (which did descend from the hashtag #TheQuinnspiracy) tries to convey people that it is about ''corruption'' in gaming media and journalistic ethics (which in itself is a good cause), yet have so far no legs to stand on outside of the fact that Quinn slept with people associated with and working in games media - supposedly to recieve favourable press for her free game; Depression Quest. She never did get favourable press.

Except she did. She was mentioned in a positive light twice. Once by Nathan Grayson here, and the other I can't remember off the top of my head unfortunately so I don't remember if with was Grayson or one of the other people she had a relationship with. Is it outright "you should buy her game"? No. But it's favourable coverage of someone he had an undisclosed relationship with.

If it genuinely was about corruption, it would have moved away from that a long time ago and would've made an effort to include and expose larger gaming media outlets and developers/publishers instead. Now, there are some concerning relationships to write about, but it keeps coming back to slutshaming Zoe, harrassing Sarkeesian, ''SJW'' nonsense and some other despicable stuff.

Right now the focus is the coziness of certain gaming press with certain indie devs making it hard for new indie devs to get good coverage. Once progress is made there, then the AAA corruption can be tackled. And please watch the video above for why "it keeps coming back to Zoe, Anita, and SJWs" (because it's not GG that keeps bringing it back to them).

I'd persoanlly love to see more transparency in the gaming media overall, however, #GG is doing a pisspoor job promoting it and honestly, doing more harm than good. Avoid it like plague.

GG uncovered corruption between indie devs, gaming press, PR companies, found potential racketeering in IGF and Indiecade, exposed a secret mailing list of 140 gaming journalists (of competing sites) colluding to push a narrative (not all of them, though). I think GG is doing some damn good work, and the people being called out are doing a damn good job of deflecting the topic.
 
1,678
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TheDrummingKING
Double post I know, but this really isn't related to my last post and I think it deserves it's own.

MundaneMatt just released a video (couple hours old) of a very emotional and genuine rant that I think a lot of people can sympathize with. Language warning for this one for sure, but it's worth the watch. Matt captures how it feels for gamers who have been having to deal with being slandered against (among other things) for nearly two months.


This video struck a chord with me, I just thanked Matt for the video. "@mundanematt I just finished watching your #StopGamerGate2014 video and I have to say thank you. Thank you for showing how it feels to have been constantly slandered against and being told we are literally the worst people for nearly two months now for daring to stand up for something. #GamerGate detractors really need to realize we are people too and we have emotions just like everyone else. Thank you Matt, honestly."

To give a bit of extra context to this. Apparently the reason Matt posted this video is because GG detractors tagged him in a tweet where he was photoshopped into a picture of ISIS decapitating someone (with Matt doing the beheading, and the person being beheaded a female GG supporter). I can completely understand him losing his 🤬 over that.

I'll see if I can find the tweet(s) in question.

Edit: I can't find anything on it right now, so I suppose take this with a grain of salt, but let the video still stand on it's merits.
 
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MXH

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Except she did. She was mentioned in a positive light twice. Once by Nathan Grayson here, and the other I can't remember off the top of my head unfortunately so I don't remember if with was Grayson or one of the other people she had a relationship with. Is it outright "you should buy her game"? No. But it's favourable coverage of someone he had an undisclosed relationship with.
http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346 :
On March 31, Nathan published the only Kotaku article he's written involving Zoe Quinn. It was about Game Jam, a failed reality show that Zoe and other developers were upset about being on. At the time, Nathan and Zoe were professional acquaintances. He quoted blog posts written by Zoe and others involved in the show. Shortly after that, in early April, Nathan and Zoe began a romantic relationship. He has not written about her since. Nathan never reviewed Zoe Quinn's game Depression Quest, let alone gave it a favorable review.
The other one I know of is when Depression Quest got a honourable mention at the IGF.

That's truly some louzy favor for sex ;)

Right now the focus is the coziness of certain gaming press with certain indie devs making it hard for new indie devs to get good coverage. Once progress is made there, then the AAA corruption can be tackled.
That's quite interesting and worrying if true. I'd assume that if a game developed by an indie dev is considered being good, it would get coverage regardless. However, if these coverages depends completely on ''friends with benefits''-factors, I'd love to know about them and have them disclosed/exposed.

And please watch the video above for why "it keeps coming back to Zoe, Anita, and SJWs" (because it's not GG that keeps bringing it back to them).
Watched a part of the video so far. Jemma mentions it as a ''way to deflect criticism from the real issue'', i.e journalistic integrity. I don't believe I can dispute her claim entirely but it still doesn't adress the fact that misogyny is a problem among a great number of GGers.

GG uncovered corruption between indie devs, gaming press, PR companies, found potential racketeering in IGF and Indiecade, exposed a secret mailing list of 140 gaming journalists (of competing sites) colluding to push a narrative (not all of them, though). I think GG is doing some damn good work, and the people being called out are doing a damn good job of deflecting the topic.
I'm assuming you're referring to this secret mailing list, where they're discussing to push a certain narrative? As well where Ben Kuchera is being an idio...umm, I mean himself and then tries to influence other sites? I wouldn't exactly call that a revelation and the former is business as usual. For instance, Tom Brawell on Eurogamer - although openly admitted - did have a series of articles discussing sexism in video games because, well, he was against it and wants the industry to re-evaluate themselves in that area, if I'm not entirely mistaken. He might not have been pushing a narrative, but he was very clear and opinionated about it.

As for the rest (about indie devs, Silverstring Media, Gamasutra, Indiecade and IGF), that was an interesting read and how tight they all appears to be relationship wise. Rather disturbing.
 
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1,678
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Canada
TheDrummingKING

I actually just reread this as well: http://geekparty.com/eron-gjoni-clarifies-the-zoe-quinn-nathan-grayson-timeline/

So a woops on my part. The relationship with Graysan was not sexual then, but there was still a relationship there which is still an issue.

The other one I know of is when Depression Quest got a honourable mention at the IGF.

That's truly some louzy favor for sex ;)

I'll try to go about finding the other one for sure.

That's quite interesting and worrying if true. I'd assume that if a game developed by an indie dev is considered being good, it would get coverage regardless. However, if these coverages depends completely on ''friends with benefits''-factors, I'd love to know about them and have them disclosed/exposed.

It is true. Indie Devs have been coming out telling their stories about the troubles of trying to get coverage without being part of the "clique". I'll try to get some links to back this up shortly.

Watched a part of the video so far. Jemma mentions it as a ''way to deflect criticism from the real issue'', i.e journalistic integrity. I don't believe I can dispute her claim entirely but it still doesn't adress the fact that misogyny is a problem among a great number of GGers.

The coverage and attention that trolls/harassers get is far more than what the reasonable majority of GG supporters so I completely understand why it GG can come across as heavily filled with misogyny, but it really isn't. This isn't a claim I can sufficiently back up (to my knowledge) because it would involve me trying to point out all of the misogynistic tweets and then also point all of the other, regular tweets (all 1.3 million).

I'm assuming you're referring to this secret mailing list, where they're discussing to push a certain narrative? As well where Ben Kuchera is being an idio...umm, I mean himself and then tries to influence other sites? I wouldn't exactly call that a revelation and the former is business as usual. For instance, Tom Brawell on Eurogamer - although openly admitted - did have a series of articles discussing sexism in video games because, well, he was against it and wants the industry to re-evaluate themselves in that area, if I'm not entirely mistaken. He might not have been pushing a narrative, but he was very clear and opinionated about it.

Not everyone in the list is trying to push a narrative, but there is troubling behaviour going on in those emails.

As for the rest (about indie devs, Silverstring Media, Gamasutra, Indiecade and IGF), that was an interesting read and how tight they all appears to be relationship wise. Rather disturbing.

It really is. People are still digging and finding more and more craziness. I actually really want the IGF and Indiecade stuff to be brought forward a lot more. It may well lead to legal action, but it would add an incredible amount of credibility to GG as a whole.



A pre-apology (how Canadian of me) if I end up saying anything incoherent today, I have been up literally all night to stay current with GG right now so my ability to make proper thoughts is going to deteriorate as the day goes on. :P
 

MXH

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Gangsterstaden
I actually just reread this as well: http://geekparty.com/eron-gjoni-clarifies-the-zoe-quinn-nathan-grayson-timeline/

So a woops on my part. The relationship with Graysan was not sexual then, but there was still a relationship there which is still an issue.
As long as their relationship didn't affect his credibility in his work - which it never did (or what I know of anyway) - I don't see the problem. The crux of the issue is people jumping to baseless conclusions and making a mountain out of a molehill.

No legs to stand on, as I said earlier. Maybe once they can validate more of the stuff that supposedly goes on in the indie scene.

It is true. Indie Devs have been coming out telling their stories about the troubles of trying to get coverage without being part of the "clique". I'll try to get some links to back this up shortly.
It really is. People are still digging and finding more and more craziness. I actually really want the IGF and Indiecade stuff to be brought forward a lot more. It may well lead to legal action, but it would add an incredible amount of credibility to GG as a whole.
These are things I'd like to know more about, not only about the shady indie business but the industry as a whole. It's just sad to see it took #GG to look into nepotism and conflict of interest.

The coverage and attention that trolls/harassers get is far more than what the reasonable majority of GG supporters so I completely understand why it GG can come across as heavily filled with misogyny, but it really isn't. This isn't a claim I can sufficiently back up (to my knowledge) because it would involve me trying to point out all of the misogynistic tweets and then also point all of the other, regular tweets (all 1.3 million).
Obviosuly not everyone fit the description and the attention they're getting is perhaps far more than they deserve, but you have to keep in mind that #GamerGate descended from #TheQuinnspiracy and even to some extent from the uproar against Anita's work, both of which had a pretty hostile attitude towards women in general. Unfortunately, it will remain being a problem.

Not everyone in the list is trying to push a narrae tive, but there is troubling behaviour going on in those emails.
These subjects will always bring bias and strong opinions. Goes for both sides. I'm not the least suprised, honestly.

A pre-apology (how Canadian of me) if I end up saying anything incoherent today, I have been up literally all night to stay current with GG right now so my ability to make proper thoughts is going to deteriorate as the day goes on. :P
I feel ya'. I've barely been able to keep up with it myself lately. This train goes way too fast for me.
 
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TenEightyOne

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TheDrummingKING
GG uncovered corruption between indie devs, gaming press, PR companies, found potential racketeering in IGF and Indiecade, exposed a secret mailing list of 140 gaming journalists (of competing sites) colluding to push a narrative (not all of them, though).

No it didn't, everybody already knew it was there.

So there's a mailing list of 140 journos (that seems very light, actually), "potential" racketeering" (which if it only has potential means it's just working like any normal industry).

Here's a question; what industries have you worked in and what's the biggest amount of money you've ever discussed paying in a meeting? This isn't a schlong-waving contest; I'm genuinely interested in how much experience you have.
 
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FoRiZon

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No clue whats really happened. But im surprised this thread is not going to be 500-1000 post of hatred and spam like other news websites did. (Sorry)
 

niky

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Because we're all mostly moderates, or I'd like to think so, and we've kicked off most of the idiots by now. :lol:

-

A mailing list is, unfortunately, not proof of anything.

And the language of those e-mails doesn't strike me as either conspiratorial or attempting to push an agenda. They seem to be all expressing distaste at the manner of the dialogue and are urging each other not to discuss the ZoePost in their news feeds, to respect the privacy of the person whose sexual life is discussed therein... and to rather show their support via twitter.

Which means... "don't say anything officially on the sites, show support via twitter."

I also like the snippet of e-mail cited wherein an aggrieved editor complains that Grayson has never reviewed Quinn's game. If that's what the editor writes in a secret mailing list... surely it's... true? :lol:

Unfortunately, there's nothing illegal about discussing content with your competitors. And none of the e-mails cited appear to relate to collusion in terms of review scores or positive coverage of commercial products.The theme simply seems to be: "Hey, this harrassment is not cool guys... what can we do against it?"

Not very compelling evidence, really.

-

The big problem with the "secret" list is that it has 140 names on it. Given the size of the gaming media, that's not a very secret group. The chances of there being GamerGate sympathizers among those 140 is very strong...

If I really wanted to push a secret agenda, I'd discuss it in a very small group. And not via a mailing list.



-

Also, @Famine ... shush! Don't let people know how easy it is to get a free tank of gas and a new car every week! :lol:

Like he said, it's a double-edged sword. If you're too nice, nobody will take you seriously. You lose webhits and credibility.

If you're too mean, nobody will talk to you, much less provide you content to write about. But you will get mondo hits. Which means money. But a lot of this generation is mean simply to "prove" something, which doesn't serve the consumer properly, either. Thank the Clarkson-school of motoring journalism, where snark and outrage outweigh any and all need to be factual about anything. (The shame is, he does know a lot, and he is a very intelligent writer... but some of the things he says are a bit of a reach, at best, and utterly cringeworthy, at worst.)

In the end, the best you can hope for is that manufacturers and consumers alike will accept a balanced review as valid. There are people, who will kiss arse... they've got enough credibility and seniority to print what they want without repercussions from the readership. Others? Like a friend (a longtime writer) always says: If you can't write anything nice in a review, you can always just return the car and not write anything at all. :lol:

It would be interesting to see what "reviews" GamerGaters perceive as "bought." Forgive me if I've missed any links, this is a very long thread!
 
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1,678
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TheDrummingKING
As long as their relationship didn't affect his credibility in his work - which it never did (or what I know of anyway) - I don't see the problem. The crux of the issue is people jumping to baseless conclusions and making a mountain out of a molehill.

No legs to stand on, as I said earlier. Maybe once they can validate more of the stuff that supposedly goes on in the indie scene.

The problem is he had an undisclosed relationship. That's an ethical breach for a journalist. Thing is, as far as GG is concerned, what happened with Zoe Quinn is old news and there are bigger things needing to be talked about now and really its the detractors of GG that want to bring it back to Zoe again and again (I feel like I've said that before :lol:).

These are things I'd like to know more about, not only about the shady indie business but the industry as a whole. It's just sad to see it took #GG to look into nepotism and conflict of interest.

I'm having a hard time finding links many links (because there are so many articles going around right now I can't remember where I heard about this happeneing, I think some of it was from devs talking in livestreams as well which is hard to pinpoint because of how many there have been) but I was able to find this one.

To give small insight to the IGF and Indiecade debacle, the year FEZ won at IGF there were several of not only his friends, but financial backers to the game in the judging panel. I wish I could link to the youtube video about this, but it had to be taken down from youtube because the lawyers of ShortFatOtaku (the user who uploaded the video) told them they were getting into very troubling legal issues and the situation had to be dealt with care. The video is apparently being worked on to insure that it is okay in terms of legality to be uploaded.

Obviosuly not everyone fit the description and the attention they're getting is perhaps far more than they deserve, but you have to keep in mind that #GamerGate descended from #TheQuinnspiracy and even to some extent from the uproar against Anita's work, both of which had a pretty hostile attitude towards women in general. Unfortunately, it will remain being a problem.

The hostility is disappointing. It's not helping anyone have a reasoned discussion on the subject.

These subjects will always bring bias and strong opinions. Goes for both sides. I'm not the least suprised, honestly.

Indeed. Damn humans and they're diverse opinions and the passion behind them. :lol: But in all seriousness, I do agree with you completely here.

I feel ya'. I've barely been able to keep up with it myself lately. This train goes way too fast for me.

I'm now awake from my accidental nap. :lol:


No it didn't, everybody already knew it was there.

Really? Really? Everybody knew about everything I listed? That's quite the claim, and one I will ask for evidence to support (I'm not entirely hypocritical in doing so, I have been trying to back up the claims I make where I can do so).

Consumers may have had a feeling about shady practices going on with a few cases actually being talked about here and there, but I highly doubt everyone knew the extent to which it was going on (and in detail too).

People in the industry would be a different story of course as they are the once taking part in said practices or watching them happen around them, so yes, they would have known about of a lot of this.

So there's a mailing list of 140 journos (that seems very light, actually), "potential" racketeering" (which if it only has potential means it's just working like any normal industry).

I'm confused, are you saying this isn't a big deal?

Here's a question; what industries have you worked in and what's the biggest amount of money you've ever discussed paying in a meeting? This isn't a schlong-waving contest; I'm genuinely interested in how much experience you have.

Actually I haven't even had a job (no idea how I managed to pull that off as I just recently turned 20), I'm all ears for what you have to say though (I'm not going to pretend I have any sort of professional experience, I'm aware of the fact that there is a lot that goes on that I don't know about).

No clue whats really happened.

If you're going to look into it, you're gonna have to look in places other than the typical news outlets. Techraptor, Gamesnosh, TheRalphRetort, gamergate.giz.moe, reddit's KotakuInAction, youtube. Those are some good places if you want to get something other than "GamerGate is misogyny incarnate".

But im surprised this thread is not going to be 500-1000 post of hatred and spam like other news websites did. (Sorry)

GTP is one of the most remarkably civil and mature wesbites for discussion I've ever come across (as far as non-GT related subjects go), massive props to the staff here for keeping the site so well run. 👍

I also like the snippet of e-mail cited wherein an aggrieved editor complains that Grayson has never reviewed Quinn's game. If that's what the editor writes in a secret mailing list... surely it's... true? :lol:

Niky, just a quick response to this.

When GG brought up the Nathan Grayson thing, it wasn't because he reviewed Quinn's game, because he didn't. It was the favourable coverage of someone he had an undisclosed relationship with that upset people. When gaming media finally actually addressed some of the points raised by GG they did the usual distortion of the facts. They were the once perpetuation that Grayson gave Quinn's game a favourable review. GGer's were quick to point this out, but of course no one really listened.[/QUOTE]


Regarding the GameJournosPro mailing list, when I read the articles I actually felt what was being said was pretty mundane for the most part. What got me is there being some unsavoury behaviour by some of the members. Probably most notably for me was Ben Kutchera (I think I spelt that right) trying to pressure Greg Tito into not allowing discussion about GG on his site (I haven't read the emails in a while so if I were to I'd probably refine that statement a bit but I'm a bit too lazy for that).
 
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niky

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How favorable was the coverage? In the single article he wrote about Quinn (which he wrote before their romantic relationship), what hidden agenda was there?

I present the single, solitary piece of evidence:

http://tmi.kotaku.com/the-indie-game-reality-tv-show-that-went-to-hell-1555599284

Make of it what you will, and whether it has a hidden agenda besides exposing rotten reality show production values.

Favorable for Quinn? Perhaps. Obviously, the story is told from the point of view of the developers involved in the show. But try to note how much attention is paid to her. She is part of the story rather than the overall focus.

-

In the end, is the journalist beholden to go back over earlier stories and insert disclaimers? "Hey, this chick here I'm writing about? We're totally a thing now."

That's pretty absurd. Even more absurd since it wasn't a review or a critique of the woman's work in any sort of way.
 
1,678
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TheDrummingKING
Before their romantic relationship yes, but still a relationship (if only a friendship).

Oh, Robin Arnott (the person mentioned right after Quinn) was one of the other men Quinn had a relationship with. Rather to try and explain myself this bit of the issue I'm going to link InternetAristocrats video on the subject again. He is far better with wording then I could ever be (though he is not as, uh, nuanced as I would like so explicit language warning again).


(I should note one thing, in the video, when "the other two names have been found" bit comes up, it turns out they were the wrong names, so feel free to disregard anything brought up about them. Fun fact, I think one of the two un-named turned out to be a women, though I can't remember who or if it had actually been substantiated.

Oh also when he says "sexual relationships" just take out sexual, the points being made still stand)

And for the sake of repeating myself again: If you are a journalist, in order to maintain ethical standards, full disclosure needs to take place about any sort of relationship or deal that is going on or ties with anybody/anything you write about.
 
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1,678
Canada
Canada
TheDrummingKING
If you're going to bring up that verge article, may I present to you, twitter bots spamming #StopGamerGate2014 (including ISIS bots it seems):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0AjDesIIAA5G9b.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0AYxysIIAEC-x-.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0AX-wpIgAA51ve.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0AXEjzIMAA-z6R.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz_UTFwIgAEManK.png:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz_To1RIQAAiOe9.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0AOyJvIcAAYmZ2.png:large
https://archive.today/qkZ3c
https://archive.today/jMiUG

The hashtag also appears to originate from a Malaysian click/bot farm:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0ATJTIIUAAAp4d.jpg:large

Quite shady if you ask me.


I've saved the pictures in case the links stop working for whatever reason so I can update my post if needed.


Unrelated but a good read:
http://nerdcubedactually.tumblr.com/post/100067793254
(Boogie2988 is actually neutral, so slight correction there)


And a good video:

Obligatory language warnings.

Edit: You know what, I'm also going to post InternetAristocrat's two other videos on the subject because they're good and worth listening to. It goes without saying, language warning for both.

 
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1,678
Canada
Canada
TheDrummingKING
I know, just reposting them because I feel they're good videos on the subject.

Something very interesting I just heard about is this: http://www.avoiceformen.com/allnews/anita-sarkeesian-feminism-online-harrassment-2/

Later in the evening, the police issued another statement to Utah State Today, reassuring students that their safety was the department’s top priority. They repeated prior assertions that state law enforcement and the FBI were involved in the investigation, saying, “Following a disturbing email received late Monday evening, Utah State University police and administrators have been working throughout the day to assess any level of risk to students or to a speaker scheduled to visit. USU police, in conjunction with several teams of state and federal law enforcement experts, determined that there was no threat to students, staff or the speaker, so no alert was issued.”

“At no time was there any imminent threat,” the statement continued. “The investigation is continuing.”

Note: I'm in no way condoning the threat because it was no cause for worry, but it seems it was indeed, not a serious threat.



Edit: More links of things. This time showing GamerGate isn't just hate filled people. Check out http://www.dearbasedmom.com/ (this was set up by Milo Yiannopoulos, there was also a $500 bouquet sent to Sommers as well, the money came from GGers donating the money. The whole thing was done in one day if I remember correctly, pretty crazy how many people came together so quickly).

And a video about Christina "Based mom" Summers by Sargon of Akkad (who has good videos related to gamergate I would recommend checking out too):

(I just watched this but I already managed to forget, but I don't think this one needs a language warning, it's a calm video)




Edit 2: Aaaand another link. http://i.imgur.com/TX6m0HK.jpg
(Back to having language warnings)

To explain what is happening here (though it explains in the picture), someone was trying to post Zoe Quinn's personal info on 8chan while 8chan's admins were asleep (so the threads in question could not be deleted and the user banned). To combat this 8chan users spammed empty threads to push the doxxing attempts passed the 15 page limit for 5 hours straight.
 
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FoRiZon

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Okay I just lurking on some websites. Apparently while initially ridiculous, the main reason trolls attack is because they believe they want to attack "Social Justice Warrior" aka pointing out social issues that not really there (Nintendo dont code same sex couple, etc). Is that true?

Not an excuse to threat this lady although I dont really agree with her. She is like Magneto of Feminism.
 

FoRiZon

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@FrzGT I'm not 100% sure on what you're asking, could you clarify?
Say, majority of trolls are one of the video game franchise fans. When their franchise pointed out by the social justice for offensés that isnt really there (ex., say, GTA sued by gay community for not featuring gay men), they will shout out loud until the fans getting sick of it and just troll/hack/dox the developer of the game.

Im not so sure. Thats the result of me lurking by the positive comments of some websites.
 
1,678
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TheDrummingKING
In relation to what you're talking about, I wouldn't call the gamers trolls in this case. The Social Justice crowd is indeed making quite a lot of offenses that just aren't there, and gamers are calling them out on their BS. Unfortunately doing that gets you labelled a misogynists or racist or all sorts of other horrible stuff a lot of time.

That's not to say there aren't trolls, but there is always going to be trolls no matter what you're talking about.
 

MXH

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The problem is he had an undisclosed relationship. That's an ethical breach for a journalist. Thing is, as far as GG is concerned, what happened with Zoe Quinn is old news and there are bigger things needing to be talked about now and really its the detractors of GG that want to bring it back to Zoe again and again (I feel like I've said that before :lol:).
Yep, old news indeed. The only reason I brought up their affair is because it's what got the snowball rolling in the first place. Baseless accusation followed by pure hatred and harassment.

As for Grayson's ethical breach as a journalist, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Their relationship never put his credibility on the line and he never mentioned her in a positive or favourbale light in the article. Her name is mentioned, her game is mentioned - that is true, but the main focus is on the failed GAME_JAM reality show.
I'm having a hard time finding links many links (because there are so many articles going around right now I can't remember where I heard about this happeneing, I think some of it was from devs talking in livestreams as well which is hard to pinpoint because of how many there have been) but I was able to find this one.

To give small insight to the IGF and Indiecade debacle, the year FEZ won at IGF there were several of not only his friends, but financial backers to the game in the judging panel. I wish I could link to the youtube video about this, but it had to be taken down from youtube because the lawyers of ShortFatOtaku (the user who uploaded the video) told them they were getting into very troubling legal issues and the situation had to be dealt with care. The video is apparently being worked on to insure that it is okay in terms of legality to be uploaded.
Nepotism at it's finest. It reminds me of the GMAs, which EG wrote an article about in 2012 :
Recently, the Games Media Awards rolled around again, and games journos turned up to a thing to party with their friends in games PR. Games PR people and games journos voted for their favourite friends, and friends gave awards to friends, and everyone had a good night out. Eurogamer won an award. Kieron Gillen was named an industry legend (and if anyone is a legend in games writing, he is) but he deserves a better platform for recognition than those GMAs. The GMAs shouldn't exist. By rights, that room should be full of people who feel uncomfortable in each other's company. PR people should be looking at games journos and thinking, "That person makes my job very challenging." Why are they all best buddies? What the hell is going on?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-10-24-lost-humanity-18-a-table-of-doritos

The hostility is disappointing. It's not helping anyone have a reasoned discussion on the subject.
I don't mind those who have good intentions and truly believe that GG is or should be about corruption and ethics in gaming journalism and I really do symphatize with you, but it started out as a hate group and sadly, still acts like one.

I found an interesting piece written by Jennifer Allaway, where she explains my thoughts on GG far more intellectually than I ever could bother articulate :
Social-Psychological Techniques: After the group has been recruited, they develop a set of mechanisms to keep them confident as a group, spread their message, and maintain group order.

Propaganda is the most vital tool in this process. It educates new members in the accepted ideals, reinforces the ideal to existing members, and provides them with convenient methods with which to spread the group's message to those outside. Woolf and Huslitzer talk about propaganda as that which is used to "increase the 'otherness' of the object of hate."

Anyone can view a log of original visual content surrounding #Gamergate here, and the propagandistic slant is extreme: #Gamergate's primary methods of disseminating information have been in the form of aggressively doctrinaire images, Youtube videos, and pastebins. In a cursory look through the 8chan boards, I found these images:

alelwkqooutd8uulstal.png


"Gaming is not a crime," for example, suggests that #Gamergate members consider themselves under siege; the image of movement mascot Vivian James, accompanied by a mantra of all the horrible things #Gamergate claims not to be, emphasizes that her iconography supports integrity in journalism and women in gaming. James, we are to understand, epitomizes #Gamergate despite her womanhood.

The social emotions prompted by these differing slogans show exactly how the ideas of #Gamergate have evolved and taken hold. They feel the need to defend themselves from those who accuse them of being elitist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted. Their intended public image is that they are first and foremost fighting for "integrity in journalism" and being "supportive of women in gaming." This is the image they want to present to the world and each other.

The problem with that presentation, both to others and themselves, is that it contradicts the true, underlying feelings they harbor. This is shown in a comment about a response to my survey:


[IMAGE NOT SUITABLE FOR GTPLANET]



In contrast to the propaganda they're producing and distributing to create the "believed lie" about their cause, this comment is a window into the group's honest attitudes. As Margaret Duffy stated in her 2003 article "Web of Hate: A Fantasy Theme Analysis of the Rhetorical Vision of Hate Groups Online": "Restatements, metaphors, inside cues, and jokes flowing from different communicators may be taken as evidence that a fantasy has chained and people have converged symbolically to a shared reality." In other words: Am I doing it right, guys?

These asides might seem harmless, and will be passed off as harmless among members of #Gamergate, but the jokes themselves contain so much misogynistic and racist content that it reinforces the "shared reality." Whether these ideas are sincerely held or not, they become a part of the group ideology and inform their actions.

Once these tools and ideologies are developed, #Gamergate uses hate and fear tactics to create a culture of silence around the topic and prevent progressive dialogue around them. McNamee, Peterson, and Pena's 2010 study on "Understanding the Communications of Online Hate Groups" mentions one particular method that is fundamental to the way hate groups take their ideologies and transition them into action: Indictment, or the "messages that blame other groups for various offenses."

In this specific case it chiefly means demonizing the media and entertainment industry, or any other groups that #Gamergate claims to have been misrepresented by. #Gamergate as an organization has been internally confused over the past two months as it tries to sort out its message, but ultimately, the blame falls most consistently and often with the game industry's "corruption" and "corrupt media."


However, their current leaderless and anonymous qualities, combined with their ability to replicate the appearance of active members through dummy accounts, creates a powerful mob mentality in which anybody can suggest a radical way of leveraging hate or fear, pressure others into following suit, and thus continue to perpetuate their narrative through action. By selling themselves as a "grassroots movement of the people," they're able to pressure parties ignorant of their origins into doing what they want.

This practice is known as Astroturfing, and it's how a small group can pressure a big distributor like Intel into pulling their ads from Gamasutra. (Note: I was published at Gamasutra last March.) It's how hundreds of emails get sent to an address asking that someone be fired for having an "SJW-oriented opinion." (SJW meaning "Social Justice Warrior.") This is how a thread of two people talking about corrupting my data led to an instant deluge of mocking and harassing responses. Worst of all, this is how Brianna Wu is driven from her home under a barrage of thousands of rape and death threats, accompanied by her home address. While the movement may not name a leader, to say that they are without organization or without strategies for them to enact their cause as one is far from the truth.
More at http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010/all

I'm confused, are you saying this isn't a big deal?
Regarding the GameJournosPro mailing list, when I read the articles I actually felt what was being said was pretty mundane for the most part. What got me is there being some unsavoury behaviour by some of the members. Probably most notably for me was Ben Kutchera (I think I spelt that right) trying to pressure Greg Tito into not allowing discussion about GG on his site (I haven't read the emails in a while so if I were to I'd probably refine that statement a bit but I'm a bit too lazy for that).
I personally don't consider it a big deal or any sort of revelation. 4 people duscussing and having opinions on the matter and refuse to act in a way that is supportive of the harassments which were happening at the time. While Ben Kuchera (who also blindly supported Microsoft's DRM policies before they did a 180) did pressure Greg and he did write a statement on the Escapist forums regarding Quinn, but as far as GamerGate goes, there's currently an ongoing discussion about it. So much pressure.

;)
No clue whats really happened. But im surprised this thread is not going to be 500-1000 post of hatred and spam like other news websites did. (Sorry)
It's a goddamn war outside. Welcome to the bunker of reason! :lol:

I rarely visit the O&CE forums but it's clear that the tone is far more sensible than anywhere else.
 

niky

Karma Chameleon
Moderator
23,800
Philippines
Philippines
Have not been able to post in here for a long time... been out and busy.

I'd just like to ask, though... why keep going back to the Five Guys, Burgers and Fries,w hen it's already been proven that Guy Number One has not written anything favorable or showcasing Quinn, and the two others have since (by admission) been proven to be the wrong guys?

We still have no widespread favorable, fawning reviews (from gaming sites, mind you... not the feminist press... and even from reviews in the feminist press, they do note it's less of a game than controlled interactive fiction... wonder how many of those girls Zoey Quinn has slept with! :lol: ) for DepQuest to show for all this hoohaw... and it would be impossible to get a neutral assessment of the game at this point, with emotions on both sides running so deep.

-

I think the point has been brought up already, but it's worth mentioning... noble though the intentions stated for GamerGate, we have yet to see real evidence of group focus on issues that matter. This would be like Ebert.com and other movie sites coming under fire for colluding to produce favorable reviews for certain games.

It doesn't work. Conspiracies don't work. Even the mainstream gaming press can't get a conspiracy going without someone breaching embargo, calling people out or whatnot. The controls are already there.

As opposed to MetaCritic, where people will gleefully give terrible reviews without really playing a game, simply because the developer has pissed them off. :D
 
1,433
Northern Ireland
Northern Ireland
I think the point has been brought up already, but it's worth mentioning... noble though the intentions stated for GamerGate, we have yet to see real evidence of group focus on issues that matter. This would be like Ebert.com and other movie sites coming under fire for colluding to produce favorable reviews for certain games.

It doesn't work. Conspiracies don't work. Even the mainstream gaming press can't get a conspiracy going without someone breaching embargo, calling people out or whatnot. The controls are already there.

Let's face it, it's more likely than not that most 'GG-ers' are probably high schoolers (or people who haven't lost high school mentality yet) who think this is a serious issue where they're 'fighting' a 'battle' (who needs to tackle real global problems when there's a woman to hate!), and are, like, gonna totally change the face of media, man..............
 

niky

Karma Chameleon
Moderator
23,800
Philippines
Philippines
Not really.

A lot of the GG commenters are older, mid-20s... some in the mid-30s. Be willing to bet many of the extremists are around my age, actually.

It's very difficult to trivialize, actually... many of the moderates, the earnest ones, they do think they have a case...

Like College radicalism, however, you can't escape how the more extreme fringe taints the whole movement. I know radicals who were okay with that, but it has forever soured me on ever supporting leftism. (if the unbridled, unrealistic idealism of Maoist principles hadn't, in the first place!).

Funny to hear such equally radical idealists poking at the "liberal agenda" the same way the radical left once decried the ultra-right! And any time you hear the words "liberal agenda", that's the last defense of the entitled Western middle-class... in other words:

First-world problems.
 

eran0004

Premium
9,723
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
I don't know much about this Gamergate thingy, but from what I've seen it doesn't seem very different from the taliban movements in Afghanistan and Pakistan: "Shut up or die."

Edit: Of course, that kind of response is common all over the world when women are speaking up.
 

FoRiZon

(Banned)
8,645
Singapore
Singapore
Not really.

A lot of the GG commenters are older, mid-20s... some in the mid-30s. Be willing to bet many of the extremists are around my age, actually.

It's very difficult to trivialize, actually... many of the moderates, the earnest ones, they do think they have a case...

Like College radicalism, however, you can't escape how the more extreme fringe taints the whole movement. I know radicals who were okay with that, but it has forever soured me on ever supporting leftism. (if the unbridled, unrealistic idealism of Maoist principles hadn't, in the first place!).

Funny to hear such equally radical idealists poking at the "liberal agenda" the same way the radical left once decried the ultra-right! And any time you hear the words "liberal agenda", that's the last defense of the entitled Western middle-class... in other words:

First-world problems.
Blame 4Chan for that.
 
2,800
Australia
Australia
What's striking me in all of this is the power, both positive and negative, that anonymity, or lack of it, provides.

People can get really ugly when when they have it, or think they have it, and cripplingly fearful when they don't.
 
1,678
Canada
Canada
TheDrummingKING
Very interesting video (at least for me):

(Edit: Woops, language warning)


At some point I do plan to get back to those who have responded to me here, but I've been busy with life and what not.

I also have a link dump coming sometime soon consisting of (currently) about 40 articles/blog posts/info-graphics/interviews/etc. that should provide ample reading for anyone interested to really looking into what's going on with GamerGate beyond the headlines of "it's misogyny" spread among the media.

Edit: Oh actually here is another good video by scholar and Feminist Christina "Based Mom" Sommers.


Edit 2:

Aaaand another video (motivational style):

(Language warning)
 
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