Gaza round 189

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KSaiyu

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BBC news
Israeli jets have attacked the Gaza Strip for a fourth day, with raids on a number of Hamas government buildings and security installations.

Air strikes early on Tuesday killed at least 10 people, medical officials in the coastal enclave said.

About 320 Palestinians have died since Saturday, the UN says. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets from Gaza.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has called for an immediate ceasefire and condemned both Israel and Hamas.

While recognising Israel's right to defend itself from militant rocket attacks, he condemned its "excessive use of force".

"The suffering caused to civilian populations as a result of the large-scale violence and destruction that have taken place over the past few days has saddened me profoundly," he said.

The UN says at least 62 of the Palestinians killed were women and children.

Forty people were said to have been wounded in Tuesday's raids, which targeted Hamas-run offices and security installations, Palestinian officials said.

Israel's defence chief earlier said his country was fighting a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas.

Israel has massed forces along the boundary with Gaza and has declared the area around it a "closed military zone".

Correspondents say the move - in addition to the call-up of thousands of reservists - could be a prelude to ground operations, but could also be intended to build pressure on Hamas.

The Red Cross earlier described the situation in Gaza's hospitals as chaotic, with medical teams "stretched to the limit".

Trucks laden with medical aid have been permitted to cross into Gaza from Egypt at the Rafah crossing.

European Union foreign ministers are scheduled to to meet in Paris later to discuss the escalating crisis.

The meeting, hosted by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, is expected to consider the idea of an humanitarian aid corridor, and how to bring additional aid to Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7804051.stm

So what do people make of this. Is it an disproportionate use of force by Israel, or fully justified? Should there be a ceasefire or an invasion?

Personally I don't blame Israel for their response, and I think an invasion would do good for Gaza and Israel in the long term. It's tough to accept the civilian casaulties but we must remember this is the Hamas that launches rockets from densely populated civilian zones in the hope of retaliations claiming their own peoples' lives. While I hope Gazans will realise they would be better off with Fatah, I fear a ceasefire could strengthen support for Hamas with worse consequences for the Middle East.
 
I have always been against Israel because they do the same thing Palestine does and expect the West to protect them, mainly the US. I am in no way supporting terrorist actions from the Palestine region, I just think both sides are wrong and I really think the US should cut off support to Israel, especially over this. It's apparent we've given them to much and now they are acting like kids with the biggest, baddest toys around.

The civilian causalities in all of this is just disgusting. I mean Hamas is a terrorist organisation, not a state, to lump all Palestinians into that group is not right. I support Israel's right to defend itself, but I do not support them killing those who just happened to be born a Palestinian. 62 women and children? I can't believe all of them were taking up arms against Israel, nor can I even believe all the men were.

And since this comes up every time I say Israel is no better then the terrorist they fight I'll just spell it out now. I am in no way antisemitic and I do take offence to anyone that says that. I don't hate Jews just because a country that has a very high Jewish population just happens to be performing military actions I don't agree with. Just like I don't hate Muslims because the terrorist on September 11th happened to practise Islam.
 
When Hamas fires rockets in residential Israel daily then goes and cowardly hides among Civilians daily, then the Palestinian people should be blaming Hamas for the deaths not Israel. How are they supposed to defend themselves?
 
I think it's the disproportion that bothers people. 4 deaths in Israel to over 300 in Gaza. Okay, a few of those in Gaza would be Hamas terrorists, but there is a mass amount of civilian life lost.

Then again, I've given up with the whole of the middle east anyway. You can't put logic into a situation determined by one's religion.
 
Like I said, I understand that Israel needs to protect itself but seriously all out war over a couple of deaths? I don't know much about the Israeli military but I would assume they have special-ops, so why not just send them in to eliminate those responsible for the attacks? That way the "bad guys" are eliminated and fewer innocents have to die.

War isn't good for anyone and the only people that really suffer are those who just had the misfortune to live in the war area.
 
When Hamas fires rockets in residential Israel daily then goes and cowardly hides among Civilians daily, then the Palestinian people should be blaming Hamas for the deaths not Israel. How are they supposed to defend themselves?

Well, it's not that simple, we should not forget that Israel is effectively taking the Palestinians hostage.
Now building a wall annexing a lot of Palestinian territory, separating families on a daily basis again, some of whom have not seen each other for many decades already. (while living less then 10 miles apart!)

Palestinian Olive trees (used by Palestines that just want to make a living) are cut down every year this period, this year was no different(a new tree will not bear fruit for many years).
Education is frustrated, export is denied (which usually leads to whole harvests rotting away). That is, the harbor was only recently rebuilt after it was completely destroyed by Israel (like the airport they destroyed 2 years ago (in Lebanon was it not, more cities with settlers are still built on Palestinian ground.
All this and more has been going on for decades now.

If everything is taken away from a people, disparate actions will be taken by those people.
'A hungry mob is an angry mob' sings Bob Marley...

I simply fail to understand anyone could be surprised that some Palestinians resort to violence, and more surprised by the passive condoning of the suppression of a people, especially by the USA, if americans wonder why the middle east seems so 'against' the USA, the palestinian/israeli problem is a big source of frustration.

This 'action' by Israel will work polarizing, it does not help work towards a solution at all. Sure 'hamas' was sending some rockets, but Hamas is not an acknowledged government is it, Hamas does not use fighter jets bombing areas, or tanks...

No, this will only lead to more hamas support by the average Palestinians.

People would be wise to count the number of civilian casualties on both sides, taking 'casualty' in the broadest sense of the word (not just deaths, but lives badly affected by all that mess over there).

There are no winners here, but i think it's save to say the Palestinian civilians are losing a lot more then their Israeli counterparts.

One would think the Jewish history would make them somewhat more sympathetic to a suppressed people, but it seems history unfolds with it's usual irony.
 
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So now they've resorted to destroying volunteers for humanitarian efforts...because that makes sense.

CNN.com
Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel
An Israeli patrol boat struck a boat carrying medical volunteers and supplies to Gaza early Tuesday as it attempted to intercept the vessel in the Mediterranean Sea, witnesses and Israeli officials said.

CNN Correspondent Karl Penhaul was aboard the 60-foot, Gibraltar-registered pleasure boat Dignity when the contact occurred. In a radio message, the Israelis accused the vessel of being involved in terrorist activity, its captain said.

The boat later docked in the Lebanese port city of Tyre.

The Dignity was carrying 16 passengers and crew who were trying to reach Gaza through an Israeli blockade of the territory. It was "very severely rammed" by an Israeli patrol boat that had been pursuing the volunteer boat for about half an hour before the collision. The crew said the vessel was struck intentionally, Penhaul said.

But Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor called allegations that the vessel was deliberately rammed "absurd." He said the volunteer boat was trying to outmaneuver the Israeli vessel when it was struck.

"This is why the collision occurred," Palmor said. "There is no intention on the part of the Israeli navy to ram anybody."

The bows of the two vessels struck each other during the incident. He said the Dignity was not "weaving about" and continued on its course as at least two Israeli vessels maneuvered around it.

The incident occurred in international waters about 90 miles off Gaza. The Israelis ordered the vessel to turn back, and it headed to Lebanon after the collision.

The boat was carrying boxes of relief supplies, volunteers and journalists to Gaza, the Palestinian territory now subject to an intense Israeli bombing campaign. Among the passengers were physicians from Britain, Germany and Cyprus and several human rights activists, including former U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney.

"I would call it ramming. Let's just call it as it is," McKinney said. "Our boat was rammed three times, twice in the front and once on the side.

"Our mission was a peaceful mission, but our mission was thwarted by the Israelis, the aggressiveness of the Israeli military."

The boat took on a small amount of water after the collision, its captain said. Palmor said the vessel refused assistance after the incident.

Israel launched airstrikes against Gaza on Saturday in what Defense Minister Ehud Barak called an "all-out war" against the Palestinian militant group Hamas, which has ruled the territory since 2007.

The Palestinian death toll has topped 375, most of them Hamas militants, Palestinian medical sources said Tuesday. At least 60 civilians have been killed in Gaza, U.N. officials said.

Hamas has responded with volleys of rocket fire aimed at southern Israeli towns, which have left six Israelis dead -- five of them civilians.

Hamas has vowed to defend Gaza in the face of what it calls continued Israeli aggression. Each side blames the other for violating an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire, which formally expired December 19 but had been weakening for months.

This makes me even more disgusted with the Israelis, it is one thing to go after military targets or boats entering territorial waters. But a boat full of international volunteers, full of non-military supplies, in international waters? Who's the terrorist here again, the lines are becoming quite blurred. There might be more to the story then this, but from the initial reports it's seeming like Israel is over stepping their boundaries. If the US continues support of Israel after trying to sink a vessel carrying a former US Representative I will just have to shake my head.
 
Dignity went from Larnaca, Cyprus. I'm sitting in Cyprus right now, watching Al Jazeera International.. This **** is pretty disgusting if you ask me. Quoted by myself from H-T:
"There are now over 360 Palestinians dead, and over 1.800 injured. This is really inhuman by Israel. They don't divide between the military islamic part of Hamas, and the political party of Hamas, running schools, hospitals etc. Seems as anyone affiliated with Hamas is a target.

Anyway, we're watching Al-Jazeera here in Cyprus, it's a little less biased than Fox and CNN. What are they saying about this? I don't believe you need to kill 360 people in order to protect and defend yourselves (as Israel claim they're doing), especially not when at least 60 of those are civilians. I saw an ambassador for Israel say that the Palestinians voted for Hamas and that this war on Gaza therefore is their own fault. He also said Israeli civilians were living in fear, but what are Palestinians now? I can't understand how anyone can support Israel right now, especially as they've shut of Gaza from the rest of the world.

Anyway, how do CNN and Fox present the war?"
 
Obama Should engage Hamas, Former U.S. envoy says - Cnn.com
CNN article
Retired Gen. Anthony Zinni said if Obama hopes to forge a peace deal, he needs to do it at the beginning of his administration.

"You make a commitment that no matter what happens, you'll stick with it," Zinni said on CNN's "American Morning." "We have enough agreements in principle that never worked out. I would say -- start from the beginning, be determined, stick with it and don't repeat the mistakes of the past and the processes of the past that did not work."

In order for the new administration to engage with Hamas, Zinni said the militant group must be willing to end its rocket attacks and violence against Israel and commit to a peace process.

In the long term, Zinni said, the next administration will have to take a new approach in dealing with the problem.

"The old way of using envoys and summits and us putting plans on the table -- that has never worked. I think we need a fresh start, more involved, a greater presence on the ground and a commitment to do it throughout the term of an administration," Zinni said.
Obama is trying to fix the American Status and other nations problems ASAP, though he is only the President-Elect.
 
America should stay out of this. I knew it was coming to a clash between these two after Hamas started with the rockets. Although, has there ever been complete peace between Pakistan and Israel? Seriously, the most misery seems to be coming from these two countries from what the news reports us the last weeks, days, months, years...

Dad always says "Let them blow eachother up, then it's all over" whenever he hears about another attack by either Pakistan or Israel upon the other side. Is it merely the Gaza stroke that is the reason of conflict between these two?

If I'd be any leader, I'd stay out of this conflict and let them sort it out by themselves, supporting is only going to grow hatred against you by the other side in the conflict...

Also, is it me or is religion in a way responsible for conflicts in the East? I don't know what you guys make up of it but people from the East easily are offended about one another says about them. Now, don't get me wrong though, I've got nothing against these people, but I think they're easily offended by the slightest bit of critisism against them.

Anyone that remembers the cartoon a while back? People in the East were furious, burning flags. If it were a cartoon about Catholism, we wouldn't do anything else than express our critisism on the creator for making a joke out of our beliefs. But these people seem to jump out of their skin by the slightest wrong thing you say.

Do you guys think that religious views between Pakistan and Israel are also a cause of the conflict? Or is it merely the Gaza stroke it's all about?
 
Well, it's not that simple, we should not forget that Israel is effectively taking the Palestinians hostage.
Now building a wall annexing a lot of Palestinian territory, separating families on a daily basis again, some of whom have not seen each other for many decades already. (while living less then 10 miles apart!)

Palestinian Olive trees (used by Palestines that just want to make a living) are cut down every year this period, this year was no different(a new tree will not bear fruit for many years).
Education is frustrated, export is denied (which usually leads to whole harvests rotting away). That is, the harbor was only recently rebuilt after it was completely destroyed by Israel (like the airport they destroyed 2 years ago (in Lebanon was it not, more cities with settlers are still built on Palestinian ground.
All this and more has been going on for decades now.

If everything is taken away from a people, disparate actions will be taken by those people.
'A hungry mob is an angry mob' sings Bob Marley...

I simply fail to understand anyone could be surprised that some Palestinians resort to violence, and more surprised by the passive condoning of the suppression of a people, especially by the USA, if americans wonder why the middle east seems so 'against' the USA, the palestinian/israeli problem is a big source of frustration.

This 'action' by Israel will work polarizing, it does not help work towards a solution at all. Sure 'hamas' was sending some rockets, but Hamas is not an acknowledged government is it, Hamas does not use fighter jets bombing areas, or tanks...

No, this will only lead to more hamas support by the average Palestinians.

People would be wise to count the number of civilian casualties on both sides, taking 'casualty' in the broadest sense of the word (not just deaths, but lives badly affected by all that mess over there).

There are no winners here, but i think it's save to say the Palestinian civilians are losing a lot more then their Israeli counterparts.

One would think the Jewish history would make them somewhat more sympathetic to a suppressed people, but it seems history unfolds with it's usual irony.

All very good points, and I agree that if this were just a few militant Palestinians in a Fatah controlled Gaza I would call this an overreaction, however I can see no long term future as long as Hamas controls the strip and this could bring about their downfall. Such a shame for the people caught in the middle with nowhere to go, on both sides of the border.
 
When Hamas fires rockets in residential Israel daily then goes and cowardly hides among Civilians daily, then the Palestinian people should be blaming Hamas for the deaths not Israel. How are they supposed to defend themselves?

Why? It's Israel that killed the Palestinians. Hamas rocket fire is born from a lack of Palestinian political access. Israel and Hamas are both wrong, and they are both to blame.
 
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I want to make this a little bit more clear incase anyone thought I meant that it was wrong by America to send that relief boat :)

America should stay out of this, military.

We should stay out of everything involving the military unless it is a direct threat to national security.
 
Why? It's Israel that killed the Palestinians. Hamas rocket fire is born from a lack of Palestinian political access. Israel and Hamas are both wrong, and they are both to blame.

Very much so. I think Israel is blowing this waaaay out of porportion, and truthfully, I think Hamas needs to cool it's jets. Like it or not (for those of us in the West), Hamas was democratically elected over Fatah, and we're going to have to live with it. It must be very difficult to have your country essentially split by two parties, having only a select few regional powers supporting you. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that the US is smart enough to withdraw some of its military or financial aid to Israel to get this thing over with... But I doubt that will happen.
 
And it's funny how you never hear the Palestinian side of the story on the TV news. It's a damn shame that they have to be the forgotten victims of this crap.
 
well, I say let them duke it out! I don't think the American or Canadian Armed Forces should be involved in this. We have enough problems of our own. We gotta get out of Afghanistan, and Iraq, we can't be fighting for the Israelis! As I say, it's not our problem! Last word: Let them blow themselves up!
 
well, I say let them duke it out! I don't think the American or Canadian Armed Forces should be involved in this. We have enough problems of our own. We gotta get out of Afghanistan, and Iraq, we can't be fighting for the Israelis! As I say, it's not our problem! Last word: Let them blow themselves up!
So when did Canada become the Military police like United States?
 
So when did Canada become the Military police like United States?

As far as I know Canada is more invovled with cleaning up messes and showing up after the sheep hits the fan. Look at what we're going through in Afghanistan, and several of the past conflicts in Africa, and eastern europe.

We Canadians also have a crack disaster relief team (D.A.R.T.) that's among the best in the world.
 
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well, I say let them duke it out! I don't think the American or Canadian Armed Forces should be involved in this. We have enough problems of our own. We gotta get out of Afghanistan, and Iraq, we can't be fighting for the Israelis! As I say, it's not our problem! Last word: Let them blow themselves up!

The Israelis could absolutely slaughter the Palestinians if they wanted to. They already have their Israeli-only military police state.
 
As far as I know Canada is more invovled with cleaning up messes and showing up after the sheep hits the fan. Look at what we're going through in Afghanistan, and several of the past conflicts in Africa, and eastern europe.

We Canadians also have a crack disaster relief team (D.A.R.T.) that's among the best in the world.
To think that everyone makes fun of Canada eh.
 
And it's funny how you never hear the Palestinian side of the story on the TV news. It's a damn shame that they have to be the forgotten victims of this crap.

Depends on what you're watching. It seems like the BBC has done a pretty good job of hearing things from the Palestinian side, but on American air-waves, we're not getting the full picture. Of course, when you get the hippies showing up at your school (google "Wheels of Justice") that hit you over the head with the plight of the Palestinians, it doesn't help their cause either.
 
Depends on what you're watching. It seems like the BBC has done a pretty good job of hearing things from the Palestinian side, but on American air-waves, we're not getting the full picture. Of course, when you get the hippies showing up at your school (google "Wheels of Justice") that hit you over the head with the plight of the Palestinians, it doesn't help their cause either.

It's because America and Israel are in bed together, I mean it's little surprise why the extremist Arab world hates us so much. Seriously, you want to stop or at least great reduce terrorism against the USA? Quit funding Israel to build a huge military. That would solve a lot of the problems.
 
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I think it would hinder some of their arguments against us if we stop, but I'm uncertain if it will really accomplish all that much in the long run. Personally, I'd be trying to get the Lebanese and Syrians to warm up to us. Instead of trying to help out Israel, we should be looking to line up Arab states against Iran.
 
I think we should just let the problem go. The problem has been going on since the Bible was written, and it's not going to stop until all of them are dead. I don't understand why we in general over here on this side of the world think we can just make it stop. It's not going to stop. It's literally just the way it works over there. Let them be.
 

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