Global Protests Against Social Distancing, Lockdown, Vaccine Mandate

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1,509
Netherlands
Netherlands
I’m vaccinated, so I’m on the unrestricted side of the “apartheid”.
Good for you, I've recently had the deadly disease and I'm fine.
And, crucially, the anti-vaxxer can be too if they just make the choice to take the vaccine (or get frequent PCR tests when that is an option).
People are protesting because the bold part wil no longer be an option in many parts of the world. In some parts of the world, no jab means no job.
Vaccination only works when the vast majority of the population uses it.
By majority you mean a 100%? My government started with 70% should be enough. Now we are at about 86% and we're still at the same place we were a year ago. Only a fool will believe that the problems we are now facing are caused only by the unvaccinated.
People who oppose vaccines for no valid reason are a danger to society.
How? How am I a danger to you?
Not because they are more likely to end up in hospital (that’s why we have hospitals), but because they sabotage the efforts to combat this pandemic and other preventable diseases.
How am I sabotaging the efforts to combat this pandemic?
 

Joey D

Premium
44,276
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
As an anti-vaxxer you have the right to screw society over by refusing the vaccine, and in return society has the right to screw you over by denying you access to certain things until the pandemic is over.
This is exactly how it should be. If you're unvaccinated by choice (and not because a medical professional told you not to be vaccinated) and get COVID, you should be put at the bottom of the list when it comes to health services. It's the same justification why alcoholics rarely get liver transplants or why smokers get a ton of procedures denied and pay significantly more in health insurance. You're free to make your choice, but you're not free from the consequences of that choice.
"Anti-vaxxer" are not making the decisions that restrict your movement. This is top tier blame shifting. Western governments have ignored early warnings of a declining health care system and are now trying to blame the problems of health care capacity on the unvaccinated. This proces has been going on for years now. You don't down scale your health care system when you have an aging population but thats what my government has done.
I don't know anything outside the US, but the healthcare system here was rolling along just fine prior to the pandemic and on the incline. Once the pandemic hit and there was an abnormal influx of patients, things went south. Now it's absolutely the unvaccinated fault that we are in this mess since they're the ones taking up a vast majority of the hospital beds and the ones who are continuing to make it so other procedures can't be performed. There's no reason someone who needs a knee replacement should have to continue to suffer because some asshat eats misinformation for dinner.

It's not blame-shifting either. The ones who are causing the biggest strain on the healthcare system are unvaccinated people who don't even take basic precautions. They're the ones getting infected at a greater rate and likely the ones who are causing the virus to mutate since they're allowing for greater replication. If people had just been vaccinated within the first six months, we likely wouldn't have an issue right now. But nope, these people felt the need to be selfish bastards. As a result, they are restricting movements, especially among those of us who were stupid and bought into garbage information.

Good for you, I've recently had the deadly disease and I'm fine.
This is a bad take, especially since 5.1 million people (that we know of) worldwide have had a bad case of death related to COVID. This doesn't even scratch the surface of people who have long COVID or have developed other issues related to being infected. Just because you were fine means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. I get the flu from time to time and I'm always fine, it doesn't mean that millions of people don't die from it.
How? How am I a danger to you?
This has been explained to you ad nauseam by more than one person. You choose to ignore it for whatever reason.
How am I sabotaging the efforts to combat this pandemic?
This has also been explained ad nauseam by more than one person.
 
7,202
Exorcet
OE Exorcet
Why stop there? Let's do the same for people who are overweight? The majority of the covid patients in the ICU are overweight (78%). I don't think we should by the way...
Getting a vaccine seems so much easier. It's almost like you're not being asked anything of you at all by getting a shot. This is why it's hard to understand why people don't.
By majority you mean a 100%? My government started with 70% should be enough. Now we are at about 86% and we're still at the same place we were a year ago. Only a fool will believe that the problems we are now facing are caused only by the unvaccinated.

How? How am I a danger to you?

How am I sabotaging the efforts to combat this pandemic?
Information changes as we know more. If 70% was the initial assessment and it didn't work, then it only makes sense that the number would go up. And if the virus is allowed to persist to the point where it becomes more infectious, expect the same.

The latter is one of the results of not taking enough action against the virus. If you contract it and let it reproduce inside of you, you create more changes to spread the disease and more chances for it to mutate. So even if you contract it and survive with no repercussions to you directly, that doesn't mean that you haven't made things worse.

If someone for whatever reason doesn't want to be vaccinated, I'd at least request extreme social distancing. Avoid anyone else unless completely necessary.
 
9,771
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
1. Good for you, I've recently had the deadly disease and I'm fine.

2. People are protesting because the bold part wil no longer be an option in many parts of the world. In some parts of the world, no jab means no job.

3. By majority you mean a 100%? My government started with 70% should be enough. Now we are at about 86% and we're still at the same place we were a year ago. Only a fool will believe that the problems we are now facing are caused only by the unvaccinated.

4. How? How am I a danger to you? How am I sabotaging the efforts to combat this pandemic?
1. Good for you. A colleague of mine was not so fortunate.

2. And if these people were unable to get vaccinated that would be a problem. If they’re just unwilling then that’s the choice they made for themselves.

3. 100% would be great, but any figure that brings the R number below one will do. The further below 1 the better though. The thing you need to understand is that the fewer people who are vaccinated, the tougher the restrictions need to be. If you fight to combat vaccinations then you fight for less freedom in society as well.

4. They are a danger because they are undermining the efforts to deal with the pandemic by manufacturing and spreading anti-vaccine propaganda. That’s sabotage.
 
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1,509
Netherlands
Netherlands
This is exactly how it should be. If you're unvaccinated by choice (and not because a medical professional told you not to be vaccinated) and get COVID, you should be put at the bottom of the list when it comes to health services.
I don't think he was talking about denying health care. I would actually be fine with being refused care for COVID related problems. I'd even dare my government to implement this..
It's the same justification why alcoholics rarely get liver transplants or why smokers get a ton of procedures denied and pay significantly more in health insurance. You're free to make your choice, but you're not free from the consequences of that choice.
Why stop at alcoholics and smokers? We now that the majority of covid patients are overweight. We (Netherlands) would free 78% of the ICU beds if we refuse care to the people that made an unhealty lifestyle choice. Why should they be free from the consequences of their choice?
I don't know anything outside the US, but the healthcare system here was rolling along just fine prior to the pandemic and on the incline.
Yes most people in the Netherlands believed we were "rolling along just fine" because there was no 24/7 news about how bad things really are with our health care system. We went from 2850 ICU beds in 2010 to 950 in 2021. It was 1150 in 2020 which means they managed to lower capacity during a "pandemic". The population has grown by almost a million and the average age has also gone up.
Once the pandemic hit and there was an abnormal influx of patients, things went south. Now it's absolutely the unvaccinated fault that we are in this mess since they're the ones taking up a vast majority of the hospital beds and the ones who are continuing to make it so other procedures can't be performed. There's no reason someone who needs a knee replacement should have to continue to suffer because some asshat eats misinformation for dinner.
There's no reason someone who needs a knee replacement should have to continue to suffer because some asshat can't control their eating habits.
It's not blame-shifting either. The ones who are causing the biggest strain on the healthcare system are unvaccinated people who don't even take basic precautions. They're the ones getting infected at a greater rate and likely the ones who are causing the virus to mutate since they're allowing for greater replication. If people had just been vaccinated within the first six months, we likely wouldn't have an issue right now. But nope, these people felt the need to be selfish bastards. As a result, they are restricting movements, especially among those of us who were stupid and bought into garbage information.
Yes, the vaccine has zero effect because a tiny minority will not take the vaccine... 86% of the people being vaccinated had no effect and some countries with an even higher vaccination rate are having the same problems. I'm honestly wondering if you are being honest here..
This is a bad take, especially since 5.1 million people (that we know of) worldwide have had a bad case of death related to COVID.
Yes, mostly old people with comorbidities that died with COVID. A bad take is keeping up the illusion that COVID effects everybody equally. It doesn't and you know it. Any person under 60 with a healty BMI has no reason to fear COVID.

Getting a vaccine seems so much easier. It's almost like you're not being asked anything of you at all by getting a shot. This is why it's hard to understand why people don't.
Lucky me doesn't have to get the vaccine because lucky me had COVID. You people keep making it just about the vaccine but it's more than that. I you can demand people to get a COVID vaccine to get their freedom back then why stop there? The government now has the power to restrict movement with every new variant that comes along.
Information changes as we know more. If 70% was the initial assessment and it didn't work, then it only makes sense that the number would go up. And if the virus is allowed to persist to the point where it becomes more infectious, expect the same.

The latter is one of the results of not taking enough action against the virus. If you contract it and let it reproduce inside of you, you create more changes to spread the disease and more chances for it to mutate. So even if you contract it and survive with no repercussions to you directly, that doesn't mean that you haven't made things worse.
A mutation is not always a bad thing. More infectious does not mean more deadly. Some even have sad that the vaccines are causing more deadly variants because the virus needs to become stronger to survive.
If someone for whatever reason doesn't want to be vaccinated, I'd at least request extreme social distancing. Avoid anyone else unless completely necessary.
Atleast you're giving people a choice here. But what if we turn this around? Let the people who are not in constant fear of COVID live their lives and let the people in fear practices extreme social distancing?

1. Good for you. A colleague of mine was not so fortunate.
Truly feel sorry for your colleague. Statistically, it's a very small number of people that get hit hard by COVID.
2. And if these people were unable to get vaccinated that would be a problem. If they’re just unwilling then that’s the choice they made for themselves.
People keep talking about having a choice. It's becoming less of a choice when you have to undergo a medical procedure to be able to continue your normal life for a disease that has no real effect on your own life. The chances of me ending up in the hospital or dying from COVID are less than zero without the vaccine. Why should I take it? People who feel like they need the protection can take it.
3. 100% would be great, but any figure that brings the R number below one will do. The further below 1 the better though. The thing you need to understand is that the fewer people who are vaccinated, the tougher the restrictions need to be. If you fight to combat vaccinations then you fight for less freedom in society as well.
Strongly diagree. I don't believe we need any restrictions. What we need to do is fix our health care system. You cant have a country with almost 18 million people and everybody is in a panic when 600 ICU beds are occupied with COVID patients (18 million people 600 beds = panic).

The for profit managers in charge of our health care system are a bigger problem than a small group of unvaccinated people.
4. They are a danger because they are undermining the efforts to deal with the pandemic by manufacturing and spreading anti-vaccine propaganda. That’s sabotage.
Being vaccinated does not stop the spread. If you truly believe that people spreading the virus are a danger then you should be pointing your anger at the vaccinated. Those are the people that now believe they can do whatever they want because they have been vaccinated. The kind of people that took the vaccine because it means they get to party again. Not because it helps "save lives".
 

Joey D

Premium
44,276
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
Why stop at alcoholics and smokers? We now that the majority of covid patients are overweight. We (Netherlands) would free 78% of the ICU beds if we refuse care to the people that made an unhealty lifestyle choice. Why should they be free from the consequences of their choice?
I used those two as examples. In the US your lifestyle choices absolutely play into your healthcare, especially when it comes to cost. If you're overweight, chances are you're going to be paying more for health insurance. Insurance companies can deny payment of things for a multitude of reasons as well. When it comes to organ transplants, a less healthy person will be lower on the list than a healthier person.
Yes most people in the Netherlands believed we were "rolling along just fine" because there was no 24/7 news about how bad things really are with our health care system. We went from 2850 ICU beds in 2010 to 950 in 2021. It was 1150 in 2020 which means they managed to lower capacity during a "pandemic". The population has grown by almost a million and the average age has also gone up.
As I've said, I don't know about the Netherlands healthcare system nor any of the nuances of it so I can't really comment on that. But I find it ridiculous that you continue to think the pandemic isn't real.
There's no reason someone who needs a knee replacement should have to continue to suffer because some asshat can't control their eating habits.
They don't. Prior to the pandemic, there wasn't an issue with space in hospitals and you could pretty much get what you needed when you needed it barring you could afford it or had the insurance to cover it. Are overweight people a burden on the healthcare system? Yes, but they're not so much of a burden that it causes overcrowding. This is why overweight people pay more for health insurance, they use more services and thus need to pay more. It's also why they get denied certain procedures too.
Yes, the vaccine has zero effect because a tiny minority will not take the vaccine... 86% of the people being vaccinated had no effect and some countries with an even higher vaccination rate are having the same problems. I'm honestly wondering if you are being honest here..
I am being honest. The efficiency of the vaccines wanes after a set amount of time (we believe it to be six months) and the vaccines have been available for nearly a year now. The person who was vaccinated in January 2021 and hasn't gotten a booster shot likely has less protection than someone who was vaccinated in September 2021. Also, vaccination percentages often contain people who've gotten just one dose of the vaccine too. We pretty much know at this point that one dose isn't effective.
Yes, mostly old people with comorbidities that died with COVID. A bad take is keeping up the illusion that COVID effects everybody equally. It doesn't and you know it. Any person under 60 with a healty BMI has no reason to fear COVID.
That's an outright lie and blatant misinformation. People under the age of 60 with a healthy BMI should absolutely be concerned about COVID. While their likelihood of death is relatively low, the likelihood for long-lasting issues isn't. Deaths have never been the main concern with COVID, you've been told this a number of times too.
 
7,202
Exorcet
OE Exorcet
Lucky me doesn't have to get the vaccine because lucky me had COVID. You people keep making it just about the vaccine but it's more than that. I you can demand people to get a COVID vaccine to get their freedom back then why stop there? The government now has the power to restrict movement with every new variant that comes along.
Even if you've had COVID, you can still get the vaccine. It still won't cost you anything and it can provide benefits like potentially better protection against variants of the virus that did not infect you. By extension this benefits the general population. It's not much different than the Flu shot, if you had the flu or got the shot last year, that doesn't mean there is no reason to take it this year.

I'm not demanding anything, I'm just explaining why I have a hard time understanding people who aren't getting vaccinated. The ratio of benefit vs effort is enormous. Asking people to get the shot is hardly asking for anything at all, that's why people "stop" there.
A mutation is not always a bad thing. More infectious does not mean more deadly. Some even have sad that the vaccines are causing more deadly variants because the virus needs to become stronger to survive.
Giving the virus enough of a chance to mutate is a bad thing. The bad mutations (from the virus point of view) take care of themselves, so it's more likely that the mutations that make the virus worse for us are the ones that get passed on. To remove the possibility of mutations you need to take away the virus' ability to reproduce. Vaccines do exactly that. We get stronger viruses because the virus is able to survive in people that are easy to infect.
Atleast you're giving people a choice here. But what if we turn this around? Let the people who are not in constant fear of COVID live their lives and let the people in fear practices extreme social distancing?
The virus doesn't live off fear, it lives off infections. If the unvaccinated and unconcerned are the ones gathering, then we get a pandemic. The point of social distancing is to make things hard for the virus, so it only make sense to have more separation between the people who are most likely to be infected.
 
22,505
United States
Here to Eternity
TexRex72
Getting a vaccine seems so much easier. It's almost like you're not being asked anything of you at all by getting a shot. This is why it's hard to understand why people don't.
When you think of them as nothing more than absolute ****ing garbage, because they're not, you cease having expectations and you no longer struggle to understand why.
 
1,509
Netherlands
Netherlands
I used those two as examples. In the US your lifestyle choices absolutely play into your healthcare, especially when it comes to cost. If you're overweight, chances are you're going to be paying more for health insurance. Insurance companies can deny payment of things for a multitude of reasons as well. When it comes to organ transplants, a less healthy person will be lower on the list than a healthier person.
Well things are different in the Netherlands. Everybody gets the health care that is covered by their insurance. The reason I bring this up is because the msm is putting the blame only on the unvaccinated for the burden on the health care system. This clearly is not true. The people now occupying the majority of the hospital beds are either very old or very overweight (sometimes it's both) of have some other comorbidity. Pretening that it's just "anti-vaxxers" is extremely dishonest.
As I've said, I don't know about the Netherlands healthcare system nor any of the nuances of it so I can't really comment on that. But I find it ridiculous that you continue to think the pandemic isn't real.
That makes it sound like I think COVID doesn't exist. I just don't believe that the fear is justified and that my government (and many other governments) this unjust fear to go full authoritarian.
They don't. Prior to the pandemic, there wasn't an issue with space in hospitals and you could pretty much get what you needed when you needed it barring you could afford it or had the insurance to cover it. Are overweight people a burden on the healthcare system? Yes, but they're not so much of a burden that it causes overcrowding. This is why overweight people pay more for health insurance, they use more services and thus need to pay more. It's also why they get denied certain procedures too.
It depended on the time of year here in the Netherlands. Flu seasons has been panic mode for years over here and people have been warning about this for years over here. Nothing has been done. We had the same problems with the Flu as we have wit COVID. The difference is that nobody cared when it was the Flu.
I am being honest. The efficiency of the vaccines wanes after a set amount of time (we believe it to be six months) and the vaccines have been available for nearly a year now. The person who was vaccinated in January 2021 and hasn't gotten a booster shot likely has less protection than someone who was vaccinated in September 2021. Also, vaccination percentages often contain people who've gotten just one dose of the vaccine too. We pretty much know at this point that one dose isn't effective.
The vaccination numbers over here are split in 1st dose and fully vaccinated. We now had 2 COVID seasons which clearly show what time of year COVID hits hard. Even if I was pro "vaccinate everybody" (I'm pro vaccinating the people that actually need it), it would have been beter if they started the vaccination program in the fall so that the people at most risk have the best "protection" at the height of the COVID season.

For the bold part. The crazies have been saying for a while now that booster shots are going to be a thing. It's not suddon new information.
That's an outright lie and blatant misinformation. People under the age of 60 with a healthy BMI should absolutely be concerned about COVID. While their likelihood of death is relatively low, the likelihood for long-lasting issues isn't. Deaths have never been the main concern with COVID, you've been told this a number of times too.
Uh I responded to what you said about 5.1 million people dying from COVID. I never said that the only thing people under 60 should not be concerned about was dying. But serously, where is the lie? Statistically, COVID should not be a concern for healty people under 60. 98% of the people infecte have no to mild symptoms. That includes all ages. The 2% that do have complications fall into the category of being overweight, old, having comorbidities or a combination of one of these symptoms.

Even if you've had COVID, you can still get the vaccine. It still won't cost you anything and it can provide benefits like potentially better protection against variants of the virus that did not infect you. By extension this benefits the general population. It's not much different than the Flu shot, if you had the flu or got the shot last year, that doesn't mean there is no reason to take it this year.
The vaccine being free is not an argument for me just having to get it. Many things are free but I'm not going out to get them. The "get the vaccine because it's free" argument is really silly. The Flu shot analogy is broken to because over here nobody is forced to get the Flu shot. Only the people ate risk get invited to get a Flu shot and they can deceide if they want it or not without any pressure to take it. I would actually be all for taking the same aproach with the COVID vaccine as we have with the Flu shots.
I'm not demanding anything, I'm just explaining why I have a hard time understanding people who aren't getting vaccinated. The ratio of benefit vs effort is enormous. Asking people to get the shot is hardly asking for anything at all, that's why people "stop" there.
I'm talking in general here. If a government can you COVID to take absolute control, why would the not use new variants to restrict people that do what they are told even more? The people are now accepting that government can do this.
Giving the virus enough of a chance to mutate is a bad thing. The bad mutations (from the virus point of view) take care of themselves, so it's more likely that the mutations that make the virus worse for us are the ones that get passed on. To remove the possibility of mutations you need to take away the virus' ability to reproduce. Vaccines do exactly that. We get stronger viruses because the virus is able to survive in people that are easy to infect.
Sorry but this is just wrong. Again, a mutation does not automatically mean a more dangerous strain. Also, the vaccines are not stopping the ability to reproduce. If anything, the vaccine's have a bigger chance of making stronger mutations.
The virus doesn't live off fear, it lives off infections. If the unvaccinated and unconcerned are the ones gathering, then we get a pandemic. The point of social distancing is to make things hard for the virus, so it only make sense to have more separation between the people who are most likely to be infected.
This virus will never go away. You can try all you like but it's not happening. We can continue on the path we are now with trying to vaccinate ourselfes out of this "pandemic" or we can accept that COVID is here to stay and take the coming years to invest in our health care systems and educating people on the benifits of having a healthy lifestyle.

There will always be people needing emergency care, thats what we should be investing in instead of in Pfizer.
 

Joey D

Premium
44,276
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
Well things are different in the Netherlands. Everybody gets the health care that is covered by their insurance. The reason I bring this up is because the msm is putting the blame only on the unvaccinated for the burden on the health care system. This clearly is not true. The people now occupying the majority of the hospital beds are either very old or very overweight (sometimes it's both) of have some other comorbidity. Pretening that it's just "anti-vaxxers" is extremely dishonest.
Fine, it's unvaccinated people with comorbidities. It still doesn't change the fact that unvaccinated people, regardless of what other conditions they have, are the ones clogging up the healthcare system. People who are old, overweight, or have other health issues really weren't a problem prior to the pandemic with regards to the healthcare system.
That makes it sound like I think COVID doesn't exist. I just don't believe that the fear is justified and that my government (and many other governments) this unjust fear to go full authoritarian.
When you type it as "pandemic" it very much makes me believe that you don't think a pandemic even exists.
The vaccination numbers over here are split in 1st dose and fully vaccinated. We now had 2 COVID seasons which clearly show what time of year COVID hits hard. Even if I was pro "vaccinate everybody" (I'm pro vaccinating the people that actually need it), it would have been beter if they started the vaccination program in the fall so that the people at most risk have the best "protection" at the height of the COVID season.

For the bold part. The crazies have been saying for a while now that booster shots are going to be a thing. It's not suddon new information.
There haven't been "COVID seasons" yet. All you need to do is look at a graph of the confirmed infections to see that. We've seen several spikes in various seasons in different parts of the world. As for vaccinating people right away, it was kind of needed. Having a vaccine that's available and waiting would've just led to more infections, more health issues, and more deaths.

And yes, boosters were going to be a thing because the vaccine's effectiveness wanes over time and the virus mutates. It's not crazy to say that and it's factual information.
Uh I responded to what you said about 5.1 million people dying from COVID. I never said that the only thing people under 60 should not be concerned about was dying. But serously, where is the lie? Statistically, COVID should not be a concern for healty people under 60. 98% of the people infecte have no to mild symptoms. That includes all ages. The 2% that do have complications fall into the category of being overweight, old, having comorbidities or a combination of one of these symptoms.
This is the lie:
Any person under 60 with a healty BMI has no reason to fear COVID.
You can be perfectly healthy and still have long-term effects from COVID, it's not unheard of and people are suffering through it right now. This includes things like shortness of breath, brain fog, unable to smell or taste for months, and even some cardiovascular disorders. We also don't know all the long-term effects since it hasn't been long-term yet. Even if you're healthy, you absolutely have a reason to fear COVID.
 
1,509
Netherlands
Netherlands
Fine, it's unvaccinated people with comorbidities. It still doesn't change the fact that unvaccinated people, regardless of what other conditions they have, are the ones clogging up the healthcare system. People who are old, overweight, or have other health issues really weren't a problem prior to the pandemic with regards to the healthcare system.
It's not just the unvaccinated. My grandma is currently in the hosipital with COVID related problems. She is 82 years old and double vaccinated. She's also massively overweight. I love my grandma but these are the facts. Sadly, I have many family members who are obese and believe taking a vaccine keeps them in the clear. Nobody is explaining to them that they are at a higher risk because of their weight. All they here is take the vaccine, it's good for your.

It's not the vaccine keeping people out of the hospitals. It's being a healthy person that keeps you out of the hospital. You're still not making a strong case for healthy people (I think i red somewhere that you even want kids as young as 5 yo to get vaccinated) needing to get vaccinated.
When you type it as "pandemic" it very much makes me believe that you don't think a pandemic even exists.
Yes, because describing the current situation like a scary pandemic is imo very dishonest. It's unreasonable for healthy people to live in fear of a virus that has little effect on them.
There haven't been "COVID seasons" yet. All you need to do is look at a graph of the confirmed infections to see that. We've seen several spikes in various seasons in different parts of the world. As for vaccinating people right away, it was kind of needed. Having a vaccine that's available and waiting would've just led to more infections, more health issues, and more deaths.
There clearly have been seasons if you look at the dutch hospitalization numbers. Numbers will go down in april and the government wil patt themselves on the back for the booster campeign..
And yes, boosters were going to be a thing because the vaccine's effectiveness wanes over time and the virus mutates. It's not crazy to say that and it's factual information.
Yet people were doing just that. Calling people that predicted booster shots were comming as conspiracy theorists. Now these same people act like this was expected all along. People were promised to shots and the "pandemic" is over. Now these same are told they have to get a booster or they can't go on holiday trips.
This is the lie:
What exactly did I lie about?
You can be perfectly healthy and still have long-term effects from COVID, it's not unheard of and people are suffering through it right now. This includes things like shortness of breath, brain fog, unable to smell or taste for months, and even some cardiovascular disorders. We also don't know all the long-term effects since it hasn't been long-term yet. Even if you're healthy, you absolutely have a reason to fear COVID.
You can be extremely carefull and still get hit by a car. What is your point? Generally speaking, Healthy people under 60 should not have to live in fear from getting COVID. Is it possible to catch a bad case? Sure you can, but chances are small. You are painting this as a 50/50 chance for a healthy person catching a bad case of the rona. Thats simply not the case.
 
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9,771
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
People keep talking about having a choice. It's becoming less of a choice when you have to undergo a medical procedure to be able to continue your normal life for a disease that has no real effect on your own life. The chances of me ending up in the hospital or dying from COVID are less than zero without the vaccine. Why should I take it? People who feel like they need the protection can take it.
You should take it because you care for the people around you. The society doesn’t exist to cater for your personal needs, if you want to be a part of it then some things are required from you in return. Sure, technically you should be a free man and be able to make all your own personal choices without any external pressure, but things like having a job, or going abroad on vacation, or watching football in an arena are all perks that come with the social contract.
Strongly diagree. I don't believe we need any restrictions. What we need to do is fix our health care system. You cant have a country with almost 18 million people and everybody is in a panic when 600 ICU beds are occupied with COVID patients (18 million people 600 beds = panic).
You can’t dimension the healthcare capacity for the once-in-a-century pandemic, it would be far too expensive and the money would be better used elsewhere during the ~95 or so years where there’s no pandemic.
Being vaccinated does not stop the spread. If you truly believe that people spreading the virus are a danger then you should be pointing your anger at the vaccinated. Those are the people that now believe they can do whatever they want because they have been vaccinated. The kind of people that took the vaccine because it means they get to party again. Not because it helps "save lives".
The only people who took the vaccines to be able to party again are the ones who don’t believe in vaccination. Everyone else took it because it’s been proven to be effective against the virus and because they care about the people around them and they want to see an end to the pandemic.
 

TB

Watching. Waiting.
Moderator
32,965
United States
NoDak
Cy-Fi
The people now occupying the majority of the hospital beds are either very old or very overweight (sometimes it's both) of have some other comorbidity.
Reputable citation for proof required.
I just don't believe that the fear is justified
A virus doesn't care what you believe.
98% of the people infecte have no to mild symptoms.
Then they unknowingly spread it to someone that isn't magically protected by being under 60.
If a government can you COVID to take absolute control, why would the not use new variants to restrict people that do what they are told even more?
Where you see control, I see protection. A new variant comes out that we don't know enough about yet. Why should we leave the borders open to let this run amuck until we know what we're dealing with?
If anything, the vaccine's have a bigger chance of making stronger mutations.
Reputable citation for proof required.
 
13
United States
United States
TB
Where you see control, I see protection.
This made me chuckle, for some reason.

Republicans, the ones that want - generally(?)- tight immigration, don't care about COVID running amok with no "passport". And the opposite is true to Democrats.

Kind of ironic, or not.
 

Danoff

Who is John Galt?
Premium
30,500
United States
Mile High City
This made me chuckle, for some reason.

Republicans, the ones that want - generally(?)- tight immigration, don't care about COVID running amok with no "passport". And the opposite is true to Democrats.

Kind of ironic, or not.
Seems like you just assumed immigrants are a disease.
 

Joey D

Premium
44,276
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
It's not the vaccine keeping people out of the hospitals. It's being a healthy person that keeps you out of the hospital.
The data shows that the vaccine keeps people out of the hospital and keeps them from dying.
Yes, because describing the current situation like a scary pandemic is imo very dishonest. It's unreasonable for healthy people to live in fear of a virus that has little effect on them.
Except it is something that needs to be taken seriously by everyone and it's not dishonest to present the current situation as scary, especially when you factor in the hospitalizations. I don't believe I would die if I was infected, but right now if I was in need of ICU care for a non-COVID-related issue, it would be a tall order.
There clearly have been seasons if you look at the dutch hospitalization numbers. Numbers will go down in april and the government wil patt themselves on the back for the booster campeign..
Ok, but how about you look outside the Netherlands before making that assumption? Worldwide there haven't been seasons, there have been spikes based on certain gatherings and a multitude of other factors such as people being burnt out from COVID and getting complacent. Eventually, COVID might end up being seasonal like influenza, but currently, it isn't.

Yet people were doing just that. Calling people that predicted booster shots were comming as conspiracy theorists. Now these same people act like this was expected all along. People were promised to shots and the "pandemic" is over. Now these same are told they have to get a booster or they can't go on holiday trips.
I've known boosters were going to be a thing since January, which was only a month after the vaccine was made available. Most people in the medical field understood boosters were likely going to be a thing within a year and it became clearer and clearer as more and more data came out. Maybe you and I hang around different types of people, but I can't recall anyone thinking that a booster was a conspiracy outside the already idiotic COVID deniers.

And I do agree, some media outlets did a very poor job of explaining how vaccines work and people made incorrect assumptions about the vaccine. However, the data hasn't really deviated from the idea that after six months or so your immunity will start to wane. If people would've gotten the vaccine in a timely manner, it likely would've meant we could go on trips again and gather in large groups, but because people didn't do that, we missed the window. Now those who were vaccinated early on need to take precautions because their immunity has waned.

It 100% makes sense that you need a booster if you wish to do things in large groups or travel.
What exactly did I lie about?
That any person under 60 with a healthy BMI has no reason to fear COVID. That's incorrect and I explained to you why.
You can be extremely carefull and still get hit by a car. What is your point? Generally speaking, Healthy people under 60 should not have to live in fear from getting COVID. Is it possible to catch a bad case? Sure you can, but chances are small. You are painting this as a 50/50 chance for a healthy person catching a bad case of the rona. Thats simply not the case.
Except I'm not painting it as a 50/50 chance. I presenting it as you have a greater chance for long-term COVID effects than dying so you should be concerned about it and take precautions since we don't know how those long-term effects will play out. I'm also saying we don't know all the long-term effects because not enough time has passed. How many people have long COVID is still being studied, but the National Institute of Health has pretty decent data that suggest it is somewhere between 10-30% of infected people:


Smaller studies suggest 50% or more people experience long COVID:


 
1,509
Netherlands
Netherlands
You should take it because you care for the people around you. The society doesn’t exist to cater for your personal needs, if you want to be a part of it then some things are required from you in return. Sure, technically you should be a free man and be able to make all your own personal choices without any external pressure, but things like having a job, or going abroad on vacation, or watching football in an arena are all perks that come with the social contract.
Me taking the vaccine is not protecting the people around me.
You can’t dimension the healthcare capacity for the once-in-a-century pandemic, it would be far too expensive and the money would be better used elsewhere during the ~95 or so years where there’s no pandemic.
Never said they have to. 2018 was a clear sign in the Netherlands because we could barely handle that Flu season. Bringing up capacity to handle a Flu season should have been enough to handle COVID. You seem to have ignored the post were I pointed out that we halved ICU capacity over a 10 year span while the population increased by a million people.
The only people who took the vaccines to be able to party again are the ones who don’t believe in vaccination. Everyone else took it because it’s been proven to be effective against the virus and because they care about the people around them and they want to see an end to the pandemic.
I've met more of the first than the latter.

@TB I don't understand what you are trying to do here. I've posted my sources multiple times and you chose to ignore them. You also gave me a very unfair thread ban where you banned me for something I did not do. I even sent your a pm about it and you ignored it. You even deleted the post in which the other party atmitted I got wrongfully accused of something he did. I don't believe you want to have a fair conversation.

@Joey D We're not going to agree. I'd take this conversation to the COVID thread but I'm banned from that (this is the global protest thread). I stand by what I have said. Even if I believe that everything you have said is true, I still don't believe having COVID pasports and lockdowns is the way to go.
 

TB

Watching. Waiting.
Moderator
32,965
United States
NoDak
Cy-Fi
I've posted my sources multiple times and you chose to ignore them.
1) Then they should be easy to hunt down and post again.
2) I can't ignore what I've never seen.

You also gave me a very unfair thread ban where you banned me for something I did not do.
Someone might have but that someone isn't me.
 
1,509
Netherlands
Netherlands
TB
1) Then they should be easy to hunt down and post again.
I could tell you to do the same. start here
TB
2) I can't ignore what I've never seen.
You can't see something when you ignore it.
TB
Someone might have but that someone isn't me.
Odd, the ban happend right after you falsely accused me of something I did not do in that thread. The post you refered to was made in a different thread so I did not break the rules like you said I did.

Maybe it was Famine you geve me a thread ban for making a sarcastic remark and called it trolling.
 

TB

Watching. Waiting.
Moderator
32,965
United States
NoDak
Cy-Fi
I could tell you to do the same. start here
You make the claim, you provide the source. That's how this has always worked.
You can't see something when you ignore it.
This doesn't even warrant a response.
Odd, the ban happend right after you falsely accused me of something I did not do in that thread. The post you refered to was made in a different thread so I did not break the rules like you said I did.
Proximity does not equal causation. Just because I posted in a thread doesn't mean I'm the reason you can't.
Maybe it was Famine you geve me a thread ban for making a sarcastic remark and called it trolling.
That's between you and him, then.
 
9,771
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
Never said they have to. 2018 was a clear sign in the Netherlands because we could barely handle that Flu season. Bringing up capacity to handle a Flu season should have been enough to handle COVID. You seem to have ignored the post were I pointed out that we halved ICU capacity over a 10 year span while the population increased by a million people.
COVID is not like the flu, double or triple capacity wouldn’t be enough if you let the pandemic go uncontrolled. Assuming that 10% of everyone infected needs ICU care and assuming that a maximum of 10% of the population would be infected at the same time, you’d need an ICU capacity of 180,000 beds to cope with it.
 
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22,505
United States
Here to Eternity
TexRex72
Whatever happened to "if you don't like it, leave"? There are places requiring no pandemic mitigation efforts. Nobody's keeping you from packing up and shipping off, right?
 
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Joey D

Premium
44,276
United States
Holladay, UT
GTP_Joey
GTP Joey
Whatever happened to "if you don't like it, leave"? There are places requiring no pandemic mitigation efforts. Nobody's keeping you from packing up and shipping off, right?
I hear Florida is lovely this time of year.
 
7,677
Denmark
Denmark
Authorities control your life every day. You think you're 100% totally free to do whatever you choose regardless of the consequences?
Before the pandemic people didn’t break any laws simply by existing. The only exception on European soil was the Nazi regime. Why was Hitler and his goons removed from power in the 1940s? Because they insisted on imposing themselves on people’s physical beings.

From February next year the Austrian people have to make their bodies available for vaccines, otherwise there will be consequences. Germany may follow suit. Using the pandemic as an excuse to mimic history’s worst mistakes is just insanity of massive proportions.
 

Danoff

Who is John Galt?
Premium
30,500
United States
Mile High City
Before the pandemic people didn’t break any laws simply by existing. The only exception on European soil was the Nazi regime. Why was Hitler and his goons removed from power in the 1940s? Because they insisted on imposing themselves on people’s physical beings.

From February next year the Austrian people have to make their bodies available for vaccines, otherwise there will be consequences. Germany may follow suit. Using the pandemic as an excuse to mimic history’s worst mistakes is just insanity of massive proportions.

Woah there... that was a lot of assumption and some really gross false equivalence.

Much of the world imposed smallpox vaccination, a vaccine which was much more dangerous than any of the COVID-19 vaccines (I think that includes the Russian and Chinese versions). The US was a good example of requirements for smallpox vaccination. And now... smallpox has been eradicated from the population.

Is this history's worst mistake you don't want repeated?
 
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22,505
United States
Here to Eternity
TexRex72
From February next year the Austrian people have to make their bodies available for vaccines, otherwise there will be consequences.
If you're an adult male, don't you also have to make your body available for civil service? How is this different save for the gender discrimination? It seems to me there really is no difference. You can cry like a little bitch in Austria but you still have to serve. Or...you know...leave.