Scaff
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Right, its not very often I start a new thread, but as normal when I do is quite a size, so settle down and have a read.
This time I have set my mind to taking a couple of cars (one FF and one FR) that feature in each Gran Turismo game in the series. Using a series of standard measurable tests, along with my own opinion (which is just that an opinion) looking at what has changed.
I would also like to point out that I am only looking at the GT series here, comparisons between GT and other games such as Enthusia and Forza have dedicated threads, so lets keep this one for GT only.
So the two cars that have fallen victim are:
FF Honda Integra Type R (DC2)
FR TVR Griffith 500
These two will be tested using both the standard tyres they are supplied with when bought and whatever type of real tyre is available in each version of the game. The obvious exception is the original GT, which had no real tyre option; additionally GT4 has three real tyres on offer and I have taken N2s for this comparison.
To keep things fair across all versions of the game I have stuck to using a DS2 and no driver aids at all, all games were run on a PS2, but no enhancement options were used for GT and GT2 (just in case). All the tests were carried out in the GT mode of the relevant game, again to ensure the tests are easily comparable.
The tests are as follows:
0 100 0 MPH test
A good test of off the line traction and acceleration combined with braking ability and stability. The best overall time of three runs is taken.
Grand Valley lap time
The best time of three laps around the Grand Valley Speedway, I chose this track as it does appear in all four games in the series and has had only minor changes over the series. It also has a good length at 3.1 miles and features a range of corners from hairpins to sweepers with a couple of nice technical sections.
I have attached all the figures from the two tests above in a .pdf file at the bottom of this post to allow easy comparisons between the games, as the sections below will cover each game in turn.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
I was initially unsure about including these two tests, but as Im sure someone would have asked why low speed manoeuvres were missing I have included them. The donut test will only apply to the TVR (for obvious reasons) and the handbrake turns tested at a range of speeds between 30 & 60 mph.
In addition to the above I will also be commenting on my opinion on the handling characteristics of each game, I will also (were required) compare this to my real world driving experience, which consist of many years in the motor industry, over 8 of which cover automotive training.
Gran Turismo
Well this is where it all began, as mentioned above no real tyres were available in the original GT, so these tests are all carried out using the Normal tyres supplied with the cars.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows:
0-100 15.28
100-0 3.64
Total 18.92
TVR Griffith 500 times were:
0-100 8.2
100-0 4.2
Total 12.4
Neither car had any problem leaving the line; no wheel spin even with full throttle launches. No drama no fuss, just hammer down the track till 100mph (161kmh) is reached and then stomp on the brakes.
Its also worth noting that the times achieved are quite silly when compared to reality, the Integra time of 18.92 is close to that of a 05 Mustang and the Griffith with a 12.4 would beat a Ford GT by half a second!!!
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.16:284
TVR Griffith 500 2.00:311
This test really brought me down to earth with a bang, the rose-tinted glasses were removed and the arcade bias of the handling was revealed. Gran Turismo was ground breaking at launch, nothing else like it was around and in comparison to its contemporaries it was a sim, but time has not been kind to the handling. Very little wheel spin or understeer is present and oversteer can be initiated at will on either car. The lap times clearly show the forgiving nature of the handling.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
Donuts first, and the TVR managed these with ease, just turn the wheel and plant the throttle, keep this up until you want to stop. It may look pretty, but its just too easy, in reality donuts do require good throttle control and balance.
Handbrake turns were carried out in both cars with ease, speeds from 30 through to 60 caused no problem at all.
Gran Turismo 2
Two years down the line, a lot more cars and tracks; yet many people say that GT2 is inferior to the original GT. I have to say viewing them side by side, the originals graphics are slightly sharper (but not by much) and the GT2 replays look unfinished in places (Tahiti Road and the floating cars is a good example). Additionally, to this day people discuss and debate if GT2 was rushed out and PD missed out chunks of the game.
However very few people comment on how (and if) the manner in which the cars handle had changed, so lets look at the numbers.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows (Control/Normal):
0-100 20.127 / 19.487
100-0 5.801 / 4.439
Total 25.928 / 23.926
TVR Griffith 500 times were (Control/Normal):
0-100 12.095 / 11.003
100-0 5.431 / 4.727
Total 17.526 / 15.730
The Integra had little problem leaving the line with either tyre type, with little wheel spin present. The Griffith had some wheel spin present with the normal tyre and slightly more on the control tyre. However both were minimal and easily controlled. The times are now the opposite of GT, with both sets of times over that you would expect to see in reality, with strangely the Normal tyres being the closest.
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.31:593 (Control) / 2.20:334 (Normal)
TVR Griffith 500 2.22:873 (Control) / 2.09:798 (Normal)
The difference between GT and GT2 became very apparent on the first lap with the Integra on control tyres, for the first time I had to actively think about the workload on the front tyres, particularly under braking. Understeer was much more clearly present under braking, but still minimal under acceleration. Switching to Normal tyres reduced the understeer considerably and when it was present it was easily corrected with the throttle. Neither tyre type would allow the fronts to spin under full throttle when exiting a corner.
The Griffith also demonstrated understeer under braking with the control tyres and a similar reduction when the normal tyres were used. The control tyres also provided lots of power oversteer when exiting corners, this was difficult to control with the digital throttle on GT2 only allowing two settings (closed and wide open), much more manageable with the normal tyres.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
The Griffith does allow you to perform donuts with ease, a slight on/off motion with the throttle was required to balance it, however the front tyres did push the car out of line.
Handbrake turns are possible, they are not neat and tidy and require a lot of room, but can be done at a range of speeds in either car.
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec
Another 2+ years and a new platform; a lot less cars and a lot better looking. Some people rate the first two games over GT3, so lets see what the numbers tell us.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows (Sim/Normal)
0-100 21.30 / 20.14
100-0 4.02 / 3.24
Total 25.32 / 23.38
TVR Griffith 500 times were (Sim/Normal):
0-100 12.92 / 11.54
100-0 4.24 / 3.70
Total 17.16 / 15.24
First I have to admit that using the DS2 here has caused me some major issues, I normally do not touch the damn thing for GT3 (or GT4 for that matter) and fine throttle control is needed to launch cleanly for the first time in the GT series. This is particularly true of the Integra, try a full throttle launch and with either tyre the car will bog down, losing a lot of time.
The same is to a degree true of the Griffith, however with the weight transfer under acceleration it is easier to modulate using the control; the greater grip can be felt.
The times themselves are slow compared with reality, however the two elements can be looked at separately as the 0-100 times are slow compared to the real world models and the 100-0 times unrealistically low (particularly for the Normal tyres).
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.34:905 (Sim) / 2.22:859 (Normal)
TVR Griffith 500 2.28:104 (Sim) / 2.10:498 (Normal)
The Integra on sim tyres for the first time in this series of tests actually started to feel like driving a FWD car on a track. Understeer was very present in both braking and acceleration if you overwork the front tyres, however it was very difficult, even on the sim tyres, to break traction and spin the fronts out of low gear corners such as the hairpins. Switching to the Normal tyres lowered the level of understeer quite dramatically, it was difficult to produce unless you got very silly with the cornering speeds, even then it was quite straightforward to control with the throttle.
The Griffith on sim tyres was a handful, even with analogue throttle on the DS2, power oversteer was immediate out of the slower corners. It was easy to catch, but unlike a car biased for the road no understeer was present before the transfer to oversteer. Switching to Normal tyres reduced oversteer to the level were it was only really present at full throttle exits of low gear corners. Understeer on corner entry and under braking was represented in a very similar manner to the Integra.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
The TVR allowed reasonable Donuts to be performed as long as good throttle control was maintained; this is far more difficult with the DS2 than a wheel & pedals.
Both cars allowed handbrake turns to be carried out with ease at speeds of approx. 30mph, however at 50-60mph you need to tap the brakes to transfer weight forward before using the steering and handbrake. Unless you do this to get the weight over the front wheels the turn will not work. Not realistic, but it did get the turns done.
Gran Turismo 4
The latest and biggest game in the series; with more cars and tracks than ever before. However, how does it look in terms of the numbers.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows (N2/S2)
0-100 19.02 / 18.46
100-0 4.64 / 4.02
Total 23.66 / 22.46
TVR Griffith 500 times were (N2/S2):
0-100 11.42 / 10.34
100-0 5.06 / 4.38
Total 16.50 / 14.72
The times posted in GT4 are quicker overall than the GT3 times and closer to the times from GT2, however the make up of these times is very different from the two previous games in the series. With both cars the 0-100 times are closer to the real cars (Integra 17secs and Griffith 10.2secs Autocar) and Im sure could be matched with better launches, Additionally the 100-0 are much more realistic; while I do not have real world figures for the two cars above; but most modern cars will brake in the 4 5 second range from 100mph.
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.37:043 (N2) / 2.26:564 (S2)
TVR Griffith 500 2.29:790 (N2) / 2.16:210 (S2)
Now the Integra on N2 tyres really forced me to think about what I was doing and how much work the tyres were being asked to do. Attack a corner too quickly and you will be rewarded with more understeer than any of the previous games, back off the steering and/or the power and as long as you were not going to fast you can get it back; but you will lose time.
The Griffith will also understeer badly if you enter a corner too quickly, again in a manner that none of the previous games in the series has recreated. Power oversteer is also present; power smoothly out of the slower corners and the Griffith will present a little understeer that leads to quite quick oversteer.
Again this is not what we are used to from previous games in the series, in the past it has been a case of wide-open throttle from the apex and the back will step out. However do this in GT4 and the Griffith will first settle into slight understeer, before a rapid transition to oversteer.
Get the braking point and your line right however and it possible to flow from corner to corner in either car; contrary to some opinions I have read I do not believe that GT4 has got understeer wrong. Just that for the first time we are being asked to deal with it in a very direct manner. What the N2 tyres do ask of you is that to be quick, you must be smooth with all of your inputs and very careful with your line. The divide between progress and understeer is slight, but it should be when you are taking the chicane between the two Grand Valley hairpins at 90+ mph.
Changing to the S2 tyres that come with the cars as standard has a predictable effect, as the grip levels rise your need to be aware of the tyres limits drops and so do your lap times.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
And now for the bad news, as much as I tried and with all tyre compounds I could not get the Griffith to perform a donut or handbrake turn, the same with the Integra and handbrake turns.
The results were to be honest quite pathetic, with the donut the front tyres would not grip and the car just pushed its way around the track with its backside billowing smoke; very undignified.
The handbrake turns were just as bad, pick either car, any tyre and give it a go. At 30mph the car just stopped half way around, at 60mph it just slid diagonally into the barriers.
I tried for about an hour to get just one half-decent handbrake turn, and just ended up with a headache.
Not GT4 finest hour by a long shot, but it is a strange quirk. Now the GT4 series has never been the last work in driving/racing sims, anyone saying otherwise has either not played enough true sims or is a fan-boy.
However in what is in so many other areas the most realistic game in the GT series yet, this is a very poor thing to miss. Either that or the fun or ruining a perfectly good set of tyres in the pursuit of going nowhere does not have the same appeal in Japan (and that I just dont believe).
Conclusion
So there we have my number and my opinion on the changes and evolution of the driving side of the Gran Turismo series, and in my opinion the balance of change has been for the better. The main issue for me in the latest version of the series is the low speed manoeuvres, such as handbrake turns and donuts, but as these are hardly used in races or hot laps they have only a minor impact for me.
I have deliberately left out issues on cars, layout, structure, etc. On the grounds that these are principally personal areas and what one person like another will not; for example I love the Fiat 500 (all three models) tiny little RR that can be chucked sideways with glee, others Im sure hate it with a passion. Subjective, you see.
All I ask is that you read the above, comment and discuss, but please try and reserve your posts to the GT series, comparisons with other games have threads dedicated to them and this was not the reason I started this one.
Regards
Scaff
I have now added the second part of the comparison in this post, it takes a look at the Nissan Skyline R33 GTR V-Spec and Honda NSX across the GT series, enjoy.
This time I have set my mind to taking a couple of cars (one FF and one FR) that feature in each Gran Turismo game in the series. Using a series of standard measurable tests, along with my own opinion (which is just that an opinion) looking at what has changed.
I would also like to point out that I am only looking at the GT series here, comparisons between GT and other games such as Enthusia and Forza have dedicated threads, so lets keep this one for GT only.
So the two cars that have fallen victim are:
FF Honda Integra Type R (DC2)
FR TVR Griffith 500
These two will be tested using both the standard tyres they are supplied with when bought and whatever type of real tyre is available in each version of the game. The obvious exception is the original GT, which had no real tyre option; additionally GT4 has three real tyres on offer and I have taken N2s for this comparison.
To keep things fair across all versions of the game I have stuck to using a DS2 and no driver aids at all, all games were run on a PS2, but no enhancement options were used for GT and GT2 (just in case). All the tests were carried out in the GT mode of the relevant game, again to ensure the tests are easily comparable.
The tests are as follows:
0 100 0 MPH test
A good test of off the line traction and acceleration combined with braking ability and stability. The best overall time of three runs is taken.
Grand Valley lap time
The best time of three laps around the Grand Valley Speedway, I chose this track as it does appear in all four games in the series and has had only minor changes over the series. It also has a good length at 3.1 miles and features a range of corners from hairpins to sweepers with a couple of nice technical sections.
I have attached all the figures from the two tests above in a .pdf file at the bottom of this post to allow easy comparisons between the games, as the sections below will cover each game in turn.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
I was initially unsure about including these two tests, but as Im sure someone would have asked why low speed manoeuvres were missing I have included them. The donut test will only apply to the TVR (for obvious reasons) and the handbrake turns tested at a range of speeds between 30 & 60 mph.
In addition to the above I will also be commenting on my opinion on the handling characteristics of each game, I will also (were required) compare this to my real world driving experience, which consist of many years in the motor industry, over 8 of which cover automotive training.
Gran Turismo
Well this is where it all began, as mentioned above no real tyres were available in the original GT, so these tests are all carried out using the Normal tyres supplied with the cars.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows:
0-100 15.28
100-0 3.64
Total 18.92
TVR Griffith 500 times were:
0-100 8.2
100-0 4.2
Total 12.4
Neither car had any problem leaving the line; no wheel spin even with full throttle launches. No drama no fuss, just hammer down the track till 100mph (161kmh) is reached and then stomp on the brakes.
Its also worth noting that the times achieved are quite silly when compared to reality, the Integra time of 18.92 is close to that of a 05 Mustang and the Griffith with a 12.4 would beat a Ford GT by half a second!!!
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.16:284
TVR Griffith 500 2.00:311
This test really brought me down to earth with a bang, the rose-tinted glasses were removed and the arcade bias of the handling was revealed. Gran Turismo was ground breaking at launch, nothing else like it was around and in comparison to its contemporaries it was a sim, but time has not been kind to the handling. Very little wheel spin or understeer is present and oversteer can be initiated at will on either car. The lap times clearly show the forgiving nature of the handling.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
Donuts first, and the TVR managed these with ease, just turn the wheel and plant the throttle, keep this up until you want to stop. It may look pretty, but its just too easy, in reality donuts do require good throttle control and balance.
Handbrake turns were carried out in both cars with ease, speeds from 30 through to 60 caused no problem at all.
Gran Turismo 2
Two years down the line, a lot more cars and tracks; yet many people say that GT2 is inferior to the original GT. I have to say viewing them side by side, the originals graphics are slightly sharper (but not by much) and the GT2 replays look unfinished in places (Tahiti Road and the floating cars is a good example). Additionally, to this day people discuss and debate if GT2 was rushed out and PD missed out chunks of the game.
However very few people comment on how (and if) the manner in which the cars handle had changed, so lets look at the numbers.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows (Control/Normal):
0-100 20.127 / 19.487
100-0 5.801 / 4.439
Total 25.928 / 23.926
TVR Griffith 500 times were (Control/Normal):
0-100 12.095 / 11.003
100-0 5.431 / 4.727
Total 17.526 / 15.730
The Integra had little problem leaving the line with either tyre type, with little wheel spin present. The Griffith had some wheel spin present with the normal tyre and slightly more on the control tyre. However both were minimal and easily controlled. The times are now the opposite of GT, with both sets of times over that you would expect to see in reality, with strangely the Normal tyres being the closest.
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.31:593 (Control) / 2.20:334 (Normal)
TVR Griffith 500 2.22:873 (Control) / 2.09:798 (Normal)
The difference between GT and GT2 became very apparent on the first lap with the Integra on control tyres, for the first time I had to actively think about the workload on the front tyres, particularly under braking. Understeer was much more clearly present under braking, but still minimal under acceleration. Switching to Normal tyres reduced the understeer considerably and when it was present it was easily corrected with the throttle. Neither tyre type would allow the fronts to spin under full throttle when exiting a corner.
The Griffith also demonstrated understeer under braking with the control tyres and a similar reduction when the normal tyres were used. The control tyres also provided lots of power oversteer when exiting corners, this was difficult to control with the digital throttle on GT2 only allowing two settings (closed and wide open), much more manageable with the normal tyres.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
The Griffith does allow you to perform donuts with ease, a slight on/off motion with the throttle was required to balance it, however the front tyres did push the car out of line.
Handbrake turns are possible, they are not neat and tidy and require a lot of room, but can be done at a range of speeds in either car.
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec
Another 2+ years and a new platform; a lot less cars and a lot better looking. Some people rate the first two games over GT3, so lets see what the numbers tell us.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows (Sim/Normal)
0-100 21.30 / 20.14
100-0 4.02 / 3.24
Total 25.32 / 23.38
TVR Griffith 500 times were (Sim/Normal):
0-100 12.92 / 11.54
100-0 4.24 / 3.70
Total 17.16 / 15.24
First I have to admit that using the DS2 here has caused me some major issues, I normally do not touch the damn thing for GT3 (or GT4 for that matter) and fine throttle control is needed to launch cleanly for the first time in the GT series. This is particularly true of the Integra, try a full throttle launch and with either tyre the car will bog down, losing a lot of time.
The same is to a degree true of the Griffith, however with the weight transfer under acceleration it is easier to modulate using the control; the greater grip can be felt.
The times themselves are slow compared with reality, however the two elements can be looked at separately as the 0-100 times are slow compared to the real world models and the 100-0 times unrealistically low (particularly for the Normal tyres).
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.34:905 (Sim) / 2.22:859 (Normal)
TVR Griffith 500 2.28:104 (Sim) / 2.10:498 (Normal)
The Integra on sim tyres for the first time in this series of tests actually started to feel like driving a FWD car on a track. Understeer was very present in both braking and acceleration if you overwork the front tyres, however it was very difficult, even on the sim tyres, to break traction and spin the fronts out of low gear corners such as the hairpins. Switching to the Normal tyres lowered the level of understeer quite dramatically, it was difficult to produce unless you got very silly with the cornering speeds, even then it was quite straightforward to control with the throttle.
The Griffith on sim tyres was a handful, even with analogue throttle on the DS2, power oversteer was immediate out of the slower corners. It was easy to catch, but unlike a car biased for the road no understeer was present before the transfer to oversteer. Switching to Normal tyres reduced oversteer to the level were it was only really present at full throttle exits of low gear corners. Understeer on corner entry and under braking was represented in a very similar manner to the Integra.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
The TVR allowed reasonable Donuts to be performed as long as good throttle control was maintained; this is far more difficult with the DS2 than a wheel & pedals.
Both cars allowed handbrake turns to be carried out with ease at speeds of approx. 30mph, however at 50-60mph you need to tap the brakes to transfer weight forward before using the steering and handbrake. Unless you do this to get the weight over the front wheels the turn will not work. Not realistic, but it did get the turns done.
Gran Turismo 4
The latest and biggest game in the series; with more cars and tracks than ever before. However, how does it look in terms of the numbers.
0-100-0 Test
Integra Type R times were as follows (N2/S2)
0-100 19.02 / 18.46
100-0 4.64 / 4.02
Total 23.66 / 22.46
TVR Griffith 500 times were (N2/S2):
0-100 11.42 / 10.34
100-0 5.06 / 4.38
Total 16.50 / 14.72
The times posted in GT4 are quicker overall than the GT3 times and closer to the times from GT2, however the make up of these times is very different from the two previous games in the series. With both cars the 0-100 times are closer to the real cars (Integra 17secs and Griffith 10.2secs Autocar) and Im sure could be matched with better launches, Additionally the 100-0 are much more realistic; while I do not have real world figures for the two cars above; but most modern cars will brake in the 4 5 second range from 100mph.
Grand Valley
Integra Type R 2.37:043 (N2) / 2.26:564 (S2)
TVR Griffith 500 2.29:790 (N2) / 2.16:210 (S2)
Now the Integra on N2 tyres really forced me to think about what I was doing and how much work the tyres were being asked to do. Attack a corner too quickly and you will be rewarded with more understeer than any of the previous games, back off the steering and/or the power and as long as you were not going to fast you can get it back; but you will lose time.
The Griffith will also understeer badly if you enter a corner too quickly, again in a manner that none of the previous games in the series has recreated. Power oversteer is also present; power smoothly out of the slower corners and the Griffith will present a little understeer that leads to quite quick oversteer.
Again this is not what we are used to from previous games in the series, in the past it has been a case of wide-open throttle from the apex and the back will step out. However do this in GT4 and the Griffith will first settle into slight understeer, before a rapid transition to oversteer.
Get the braking point and your line right however and it possible to flow from corner to corner in either car; contrary to some opinions I have read I do not believe that GT4 has got understeer wrong. Just that for the first time we are being asked to deal with it in a very direct manner. What the N2 tyres do ask of you is that to be quick, you must be smooth with all of your inputs and very careful with your line. The divide between progress and understeer is slight, but it should be when you are taking the chicane between the two Grand Valley hairpins at 90+ mph.
Changing to the S2 tyres that come with the cars as standard has a predictable effect, as the grip levels rise your need to be aware of the tyres limits drops and so do your lap times.
Donuts & Handbrake turns
And now for the bad news, as much as I tried and with all tyre compounds I could not get the Griffith to perform a donut or handbrake turn, the same with the Integra and handbrake turns.
The results were to be honest quite pathetic, with the donut the front tyres would not grip and the car just pushed its way around the track with its backside billowing smoke; very undignified.
The handbrake turns were just as bad, pick either car, any tyre and give it a go. At 30mph the car just stopped half way around, at 60mph it just slid diagonally into the barriers.
I tried for about an hour to get just one half-decent handbrake turn, and just ended up with a headache.
Not GT4 finest hour by a long shot, but it is a strange quirk. Now the GT4 series has never been the last work in driving/racing sims, anyone saying otherwise has either not played enough true sims or is a fan-boy.
However in what is in so many other areas the most realistic game in the GT series yet, this is a very poor thing to miss. Either that or the fun or ruining a perfectly good set of tyres in the pursuit of going nowhere does not have the same appeal in Japan (and that I just dont believe).
Conclusion
So there we have my number and my opinion on the changes and evolution of the driving side of the Gran Turismo series, and in my opinion the balance of change has been for the better. The main issue for me in the latest version of the series is the low speed manoeuvres, such as handbrake turns and donuts, but as these are hardly used in races or hot laps they have only a minor impact for me.
I have deliberately left out issues on cars, layout, structure, etc. On the grounds that these are principally personal areas and what one person like another will not; for example I love the Fiat 500 (all three models) tiny little RR that can be chucked sideways with glee, others Im sure hate it with a passion. Subjective, you see.
All I ask is that you read the above, comment and discuss, but please try and reserve your posts to the GT series, comparisons with other games have threads dedicated to them and this was not the reason I started this one.
Regards
Scaff
I have now added the second part of the comparison in this post, it takes a look at the Nissan Skyline R33 GTR V-Spec and Honda NSX across the GT series, enjoy.
Now THAT has no place in racing!
. 👍.
Thankyou.
Maybe if you got Jordan to pay you for your endeavours? Send him an invoice, see what happens... 💡 ("You just keep on thinking, Butch, that's what you're good at... ")
