GT6 Duel of the Week 2 - The Last Lap

GT3 vs What???


  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .
OH MY GOD KEI CARS, HOW I ADORE THEE

Well this was a pleasant surprise to witness a battle between two pint sized pocket rockets, and among some of my favourite ones too!

The EA11R Suzuki Cappuccino is a very stable car to drive, it certainly feels at ease in the corners but not necesarily feeling as fast. On the other side of things, the Autozam AZ-1 is quite frantic, oversteering quite often under its own volition, but if your careful (or crazy) enough, it can still feel remarkably controllable, its acceleration is rather spunky as well.

In terms of each of the cars' looks, the Cappa is certainly much more rounded and refined, but the Autozam's robust, function over form look to it all (taking into consideration the gullwing doors) i like both of these cars, but its hard to say which ones i like the looks of more!

I drove both of these little buggers around Autumn Ring Mini R, and while the Cappuccino was faster (with a time of 49.443) and the consistency of getting 49 second times almost every lap of the 12 minute time attack session.. it lacked the feeling of self improvement, it didn't feel as satisfying to nail the corners right or get the right throttle amount to make the most of a corner. Sure the Autozam was slightly slower (with a 50.038 time) but i had to really get acquainted with it, you could feel yourself learning with every slip-up, and while its traction can be dubious, its still mostly in your control.

In terms of racing, i must hand it to the Cappuccino, but for some good fun and casual driving, and my real winner, has to be the slippery underdog, the Autozam AZ-1 ;)

Outside of this stock car comparison ive also had a fair bit of time with various modified versions of these cars in GT5 and 6, with a 400PP EA11R that proved to handle pretty well, and my first car in both PS3 GTs were indeed a Autozam AZ-1 (and a gokart) so ive had a fair bit of experience with these two :D
 
Kawaii K-Kar Klash!

Super tiny cars aren't usually in my garage, but I take all comers. So which one of these pint-sized cars are better than the other? Let's find out.

Autumn Ring Mini Trial:
Cappuccino - 0:50.835
AZ-1 - 0:52.703

Rotenboden Trial:
Cappuccino - 2:33.513
AZ-1 - 2:38.684

SSR5 Trial:
Cappuccino - 2:05.145
AZ-1 - 2:10.567

There isn't much difference in the numbers between the two cars. The AZ-1 is an extra 20kg over the Cappuccino and overpowers the AZ-1 by a colossal 1hp. However, as you can definitely see, there's a big difference between the two in terms of times. It boils down to the behavior, and this duel gets lumped into the "One is better because of drivetrain" category. The FR Suzuki felt very stable and well-behaved, not fish-tailing unless you push it to. The MR Mazda however was a little more rambunctious. (Or at least as rambunctious as you can get with just 63hp.)

The Suzuki Cappuccino is the clear winner.
 
The Coffee Car TT went well for me, the Mazda Shazam, not so much. I need a lot of practice with that one :scared:
 
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Autozamvssuzki.png


Kei jidōsha Fight.

Well after the Heavyweight Battle between two fan favourite cars we have a couple of Strawweight battlers. But just because these cars are tiny doesn't mean they can't put on a show. (Just look at Connor McGregor in the UFC... Tiny little fighting midget yet he is popular for some reason.)

So which of these pocket rockets is best?

Now of the K Car class we have been forced to drive two from the sportier end of the scale. These are at first glance no econocars with no soul. Both of them have character.
Se048.jpg

(When I grow up I wannabe a GTS, just like Dad...)​

The Cappuccino is a "Micro Viper" The long nose, the rear wheel drive the powerful 3 cylinder engine... only has to grow another 7 cylinders... and whopping 7343cc in displacment before earns it's GTS Stripes.
greddy6w_front3.jpg

RE Amemiya don't make Kei cars but when they do...​

The Autozam? Mid Engined, Rear wheel drive, Gull Wing Doors. That is the sort of checklist Gandini would have a try for but get rejected by Lamboghini for being over the top.

cahead.jpg

*** Round 1 *** Displacement ***

Mazda - 657cc
Suzuki - 657cc

Autozam AZ-1 10- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10​

*** Round 2 *** Cylinders ***

Mazda - 3
Suzuki - 3

Autozam AZ-1 10(20)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(20)​

*** Round 3 *** Fear my POWAH ***

Mazda - 63bhp
Suzuki - 63bhp

Autozam AZ-1 10(30)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(30)​


*** Round 4 *** Walkie Torque ***

Mazda - 8.6kgfm
Suzuki - 8.6kgfm

Autozam AZ-1 10(40)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(40)​
cabanner.jpg

*** Round 5 *** Length ***

Mazda - 3295mm
Suzuki - 3295mm

Autozam AZ-1 10(50)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(50)​


*** Round 6 *** Width ***

Mazda - 1395mm
Suzuki - 1395mm

Autozam AZ-1 10(60)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(60)​


*** Round 7 *** Height ***

Mazda - 1150mm
Suzuki - 1185mm

The Mazda is just under two inches shorter than the Suzuki, making it much less vulnerable to low bridges...

Autozam AZ-1 10(70)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 9(69)​


*** Round 8 *** Weight ***

Mazda - 720kg 45:55
Suzuki - 700kg 51:49

44lbs isn't much but the mazda is only just under 103% of the weight of the Cappuccino.

Autozam AZ-1 9(79)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(79)​
ca1.jpg

*** Round 9 *** Cost ***

Mazda - 14980 kazula - 1,498,000,000¥
Suzuki - 14580 kazula - 1,458,000,000¥
The Cappuccino is 400 credits cheaper... (Oddly in Japan the Honda Beat was only 1,388,000,000¥)

Autozam AZ-1 9(88)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(89)​

*** Round 10 *** Brands Hatch Indy ***


Mazda - 69.1 (2m20.5)
Suzuki - 67.2 (2m18.8)

First time trial and the Cappuccino was easy to pilot to a pretty comfortable win. The Autozam was a touch light on the steering and wasted alot of time spooling up the rear tyres in the turns.

Autozam AZ-1 8(96)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 10(99)​


*** Round 11 *** High Speed Ring ***


Mazda - 1m40.1 (3m25.2)
Suzuki - 1m46.1 (3m33.7)

This was a big surprise to me as I had already seen the early reviews of the Cappuccino being so much faster. Maybe an aberation of traffic or the pilot getting used to the balance of the Mid engined Autozam.



Autozam AZ-1 10(106)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 8(107)​

*** Round 12 *** Autumn Ring Mini ***

Mazda - 50.4 (2m31.5)
Suzuki - 51.6 (2m37.6)
Suzuki - 50.6 (2m33.9) (Second go)

This was even more of a surprise and proof I should ignore the thread before I pick a car. I fully expected the easier to drive lighter less of a handful Cappuccino to just win. But Once I drove the Autozam with the balance of a tightrope walker going over the Grand Canyon then it was all over.
catop.jpg


Autozam AZ-1 10(116)- <>Suzuki Cappuccino EA11R 8(115)

I'll pick the Autozam.
Come on Mid engined,
Gull wing doors,
00a82666ab17a65ff066fe04f22a097f.jpg
Side Strakes
No door handles!
az1.jpg

Obviously it is how a driver can get dialed in. The easy to see differences are the weight and where it is located. The traditional Nose heavy Cappuccino or the heavy tailed Autozam. But there are other factors.
The Differential in both cars (50/80/-)Autozam and (3/18/8) Cappuccino, make them much more Responsive/stable just by how the rear axel behaves
(The Dark art of Ramp Angles and Clutch Packs, enough to make your head hurt)
The gearboxes also had different final ratios, which could have an effect on power delivery. Maybe.

Also the Autozam is a delight to balance - over step and you leave a big dirty trail behind but a gentle way to improve your counter steer skills with a delicate dab of oppo.

And being English, I prefer Tea to Coffee.
 
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I enjoy most of your reviews guys and I totally adore the Ryk's ones.

Now! My laptimes first and then my opinion on design, handling and voting in the end.

Laptimes on CM tires (the default ones):

Cappuccino (EA21R) '95: 0:49.344

Autozam AZ-1 '92: 0:50.427

They both have no torque on the upper range of rpms having so small engines, so I decided to change gears lower than 7000 rpms in order to get the best acceleration out of the corners and tried to keep the engine on the middle of the rpm range (4k-7k).

So, the win here is Suzuki's

Design:

Suzuki is a good looking super-mini sports car, impressive tbh as I have seen it twice from closeby. Very low and good analogies give it good looks.

AZ-1 is an unknown quantity from closeby as in Greece it didn't ever come and it was produced only for a year in Japan. But, those doors and some of the details on its design make it much more special than Cappucino and it gains the design battle.

Handling:

Cappucino is pretty nice, easy and predictable when driven on the edge and that's very normal due to its almost perfect weight distribution (51:49) which is helped by it being FR.

AZ-1 on the other hand, being MR and having a 45:55 weight distribution needs from its driver to learn its treats in order to get the best possible grip out of it as it has the usual for any MR tendency to react much more to any sudden input. So, it needs delicate and smooth inputs, not overcorrections and it delivers very well when done so.

I am sorry but I cannot give the win to any of them as Suzuki gains in speed, Mazda in design and they are both enjoyable in the way they are driven fast.

So, this weeks duel is a draw for me.
 
Alright, so this week I chose two really tiny cars from Japanland. A mini-Viper and a mini-F40. Which sports car could get around the track better? The FR car with 63hp or the MR car with 63hp? Let's find out...

Taking them down for a round of Autumn Ring Mini...

Mazda: 48.987
Suzuki: 50.109

Almost a second difference for me. However, even though I found that the Suzuki was easier to drive, that doesn't mean that it was more fun. I enjoy the looks and handling dynamics of the Autozam a tad more. So I hereby bestow my vote to the fake Mazda.

let's tally up the votes:

Mazda: 4
Suzuki: 3

So it seems that the real winner today is the...

1992 Suzuki Cara Mazda Autozam AZ-1!!!
IMGP1008.jpg


(Congratulations to @Draggon for posting the best times in both cars. Again...)

Don't worry Suzuki fans, at least a Suzuki won either way this week, right?

Anyways, stay tuned for the next duel of the week coming up in a few minutes!!!

:cheers:
 
Considering the Supra is based on the Celica, what we have here is pretty much "Celica vs More Popular Celica"... "Father vs Son"... "Rally car vs Track car"?

However you look at it, this will be an epic duel!!! Let's go!
 
Just looking at these two I would instantly bet on the Supra... so obviously the GT-Four will be better... Interesting duel that I'd never consider as fair. I've been wrong before... and I'll be wrong again!
 
Having a whole litre bigger engine, 2 cylinders more and a second turbo and weighting the same more or less, I think Supra RZ will easily win the battle in laptimes by almost or over 2 secs. Let's see how this story goes.
 
So far the Road version of the GT-Four isn't quite there... I am toying with swapping out the Actual Rally Car or dropping the Supra down to the Naturally Aspirated SZ-R -
May double up and tag team between that quartet.
 
Ryk
So far the Road version of the GT-Four isn't quite there... I am toying with swapping out the Actual Rally Car or dropping the Supra down to the Naturally Aspirated SZ-R -
May double up and tag team between that quartet.

That tag-team idea is interesting, I'll look into that right now.
 
Alright guys, I apologize for any inconveniences I may have caused for switching the duel today, but I think this needed to be done because I picked the wrong Supra. But then a regular on this thread shot me an interesting idea for a duel that would allow me to keep both cars and expand the duel's excitement. So today I have found two more cars to pit into the duel.

GT6 Duel of the Week 73: Super Aichi Bros.!

The way this week will work is there will be two tiers:

Tier one is the...

P1170616-r50.jpg


1997 Toyota Supra SZ-R

...and the...

Toyota-Celica_GT_Four_mp6_pic_56627.jpg


1998 Toyota Celica GT-Four (ST205)


Tier two includes the...

8428436909_e2531ba5b1_o.jpg


1997 Toyota Supra RZ

...against the...

toyota%20celica%20gt4%20castrol%20rally%201.jpg6bee82d3-f3cb-4ca9-82db-4044ac05edf5Original.jpg


1995 Toyota Celica GT-Four (ST205) Rally Car
(thanks @Ryk for the other half of the duel)

MAKE SURE YOU PUT IN TWO VOTES (ONE FOR EACH TIER). THE TEAM WITH THE MOST VOTES WILL BE SELECTED AS THE WINNER ON SUNDAY!

So, take these cars back to Eiger Nordwand's short track in the edited time-trial to see which team comes out on top. Will you go the path of the JDM dude-bro or the WRC nerd? Get driving to find out.

Tires are limited to comfort soft across the board, so make sure you buy some for the ST205 Rally Car. Be sure to watch the jump and your braking into the downhill hairpins over the jump, that area can really screw up some people's times. Choose your favourite team and get testing. :cheers:
 
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@MrWaflz55

So I go to do the online duel and literally the only eligible car of the four is the production Celica.

Both Supras can't enter because it only lets in FF and 4WD cars.

I can't figure out why the rally car Celica isn't allowed in either.

EDIT: So the rally Celica isn't allowed in because I haven't bought comfort softs for it yet. However, there's still the issue with the drivetrain regulations.
 
@MrWaflz55

So I go to do the online duel and literally the only eligible car of the four is the production Celica.

Both Supras can't enter because it only lets in FF and 4WD cars.

I can't figure out why the rally car Celica isn't allowed in either.

EDIT: So the rally Celica isn't allowed in because I haven't bought comfort softs for it yet. However, there's still the issue with the drivetrain regulations.

I believe you haven't checked a second time. I changed that over 5 hours ago.
 
I made the post right when I tried to get in, which was an hour and a half ago. For me, it was only going to let in FF or 4WD Toyotas.
 
Just checked again, it still has the FF restrictions. I checked with @Draggon and he sees that there's a drivetrain restriction to only FF and 4WD cars still.
 
The last double duel I did was probably about a year ago with the Pagani Zondas and the Callaway C12 and Saleen S7, and that extra duel was for the hell of it.

That being said, it's not often we get all of the participants from the exact same manufacturer. The Mark IV Supra is going up against the Celica GT-Four but the lower trim Supra is facing off against the production Celica and the high performance Supra is going against the rally car. Should be an interesting fight.

Eiger Trial:
Tier 1
Supra SZ-R - 1:21.526
Celica GT-Four (Production) - 1:20.362

Tier 2
Supra RZ - 1:17.730
Celica GT-Four (Rally) - 1:14.148

Rotenboden Trial:
Tier 1
Supra SZ-R - 2:01.116
Celica GT-Four (Production) - 1:58.239

Tier 2
Supra RZ - 1:55.404
Celica GT-Four (Rally) - 1:48.816

SSR5 Trial:
Tier 1
Supra SZ-R - 1:45.581
Celica GT-Four (Production) - 1:45.154

Tier 2
Supra RZ - 1:40.804
Celica GT-Four (Rally) - 1:36.250

It would be easy to assume: "well, the Supra was the flagship sports car and the Celica is lower than it, so obviously the Supra is going to win." and given the fact that the duel was originally supposed to be between the Supra RZ and the production GT-Four Celica, it definitely would have been a curb-stomp battle with the Celica limping away whimpering. However, the production Celica got pitted against the "diet Supra" and the WRC-spec rally car got put up against the Supra RZ.

Both of the Celicas have an advantage of being 4WD and not having the drawbacks of being 4WD. Both handle being on Comfort Softs awfully well, and are very well behaved. Both FR Supras had their separate handling differences, the SZ-R had to put up with loads of understeer and the over 100 more horsepower RZ had oversteer to deal with.

Then there's the power/weight difference between the competitors. The Tier 1 Supra was over 25hp under the Celica and 60kgs heavier, while on Tier 2, the Supra's extra weight over the Celica made it less apt to tackle the fast times. Not to mention, the Supra RZ was made to impress friends and sports car enthusiasts, while the Celica was built sorely to win the WRC and had legitimate racing refinements.

Both Celica's get my vote on this one. As for the Supras...

2532M.png.jpg
 
As always, ThrasherDBS is 1st in posting his findings!

So, my laptimes first and then some comments on those cars' handling performance.

Eiger (on CS tires as the room settings were set):

Tier 1
SUPRA SZ-R '97 1:20.877
CELICA GT-FOUR (ST205) '98 1:20.037

Tier 2
SUPRA RZ '97 1:16.642
CELICA GT-FOUR Rally Car (ST205) '95 1:12.102

It is profound that as our buddy in the previous post wrote, Celicas clearly win on Supras on this occasion.

Thing is that for tier 1, CELICA GT-FOUR (ST205) has 5,54 kg/PS vs NA Supra's 6,53 and tbh it gets close enough in laptime, so I can say it is a surprize to not lose by a bigger difference.

On tier 2 now, The Celica Rally car (3,8kg/PS) has much less weight, a very close gear ratio, a great chassis, aero to push it down and 3 diffs to control where the power goes every ms. On Supra's RZ side though (4,4kg/PS), there is a monstrous engine with great power delivery and massive torque everywhere, a very predictable behaviour over the limit which pleasantly surprized me as for its weight and dimensions it wasn't too hard to drive fast even with a 6axis controller. BUT, a race car is years ahead especially when its setup for places like Eiger and here the Celica shows that very clearly winning this tier's duel by 4,5 secs!

In conclusion, Celica's win with flying colours both of this week's duels imho.
 
rz cel.jpg

cel srz.jpg

Bit of a sticky match up so I will be general about the cars. (wow I am useless at the old pictures - Can't even get the names right!!)

*** Looks ***

The Celica is nice, but I really loved the look of the previous model (ST185), The lack of pop up headlamps and a rear three quarter view which lost an almost perfect blend of curves. The ST205 Celica isn't bad, but I will always see it as a less evocative car.

The Supra really stepped up from the big flat large "Japanese Corvette" in terms of looks, to this beefy icon of a car. The lines and curves just made it look powerful yet graceful - If you compare it to the R33 Skyline of the Era which are boxy awkward looking cars, this looked like some sort of animalistic predator, Maybe a Shark or a Leopard - something with a deadly grace about it. Of course, as it was a Toyota it had all the creature comforts and reliability that other sports cars didn't have. (But the Celica is just as Toyota as the Supra!)

***Speed Trial - 5000m***
Supra RZ ----- - 1m11.3 (160mph)
GT-FOUR RC --- 1m17.4(154mph)
GT-FOUR ----- - 1m19.4(158mph)
Supra SZ-R--- - 1m21.6 (155mph)

***Speed Trial - 20000m***
Supra RZ ----- - 4m16.8 (187mph)
GT-FOUR ----- - 4m47.3(166mph)
GT-FOUR RC --- 4m56.0(160mph)
Supra SZ-R--- - 5m00.0 (161mph)

***Speed Trial - Full Lap - Route X ***
Supra RZ ----- - 6m21.8 (187mph)
GT-FOUR ----- - 7m07.1(166mph)
GT-FOUR RC --- 7m23.0(160mph)
Supra SZ-R--- - 7m26.7 (161mph)

*** Swiss Alpine Test - Matterhorn ****
GT-FOUR RC --- 1m14.4
Supra RZ ----- - 1m18.0
GT-FOUR ---- - 1m20.7
Supra SZ-R--- - 1m22.5

Numbers can only say so much, the Gearbox dominates the speed trials as each car would hit the ultimate speed when their top gear clattered into the rev limiter. On a Track the punchy Group A GT-FOUR could use every bit of power and had the added bonus of aero dynamic downforce to keep it planted in the corners. The RZ Supra was a handful trying to keep the rear tyres from breaking lose and wasting the power it has on tap (I Ran Comfort Softs for all cars - SO the lack of mechanical grip from the tyres hurt the Supra's as they didn't have.)

Handling.

The Celica wasn't as terrible as I remembered - maybe Running grippier tyres conjours up a lot of understeer but on Comfort tyres both cars felt really good. The Supra twins were tougher at times - Maybe the power of the Turbo left it going too fast into corners, and maybe the lack of power of the SZ-R had my driver pushing too hard to make up time (That would be me, driving beyond my abilities!)

So which car to have?

If I take away the Group A Rally Celica as it really is the Apples and Oranges thing. And it is silly expensive!

So the SZ-R or the RZ? Turbo POWAH. And Boy, do those sequential twin turbochargers transform the car. It does weight a bit more but the added grunt is worth it. It may try to say it is a sweet innocent 276bhp car in GT6 but once you actually open up the taps on the engine you find a firebreathing 325bhp - (The Print Adverts at the time actually claimed 320bhp) - The normally aspirated Supra SZ-R is 10,000 kazula cheaper but it felt underpowered for its size. So I'd pick the RZ.

So Supra RZ versus the Celica GT-Four...​

This is very much down to looks, the Supra looks great, and is a big improvement over the previous version. Conversely the ST205 Celica has a bashed up front and the 3/4 view is less pleasing. Now if it were the ST185 versus the 97 Supra, I'd take the ST185 every day, but the ST205 hasn't got the looks to make me overlook the lack in performance.
And it has nothing to do with the colour paint.

So Winner for me is the
rzwin.jpg
Toyota Supra RZ, Yesterday
 
So, for my report on these 4, I had fun with all of them except the stock version of the ST205. I just did not like the massive understeer and required lots of handbrake to get it to turn. Both Supras fell short due to wheelspin, the RZ more than the SZ-R of course. I did not notice much difference between the two, but it seemed from a seat of the pants viewpoint, perhaps the RZ rotated a bit better. Both of them made for enjoyable drives. The ST205 Rally was the absolute most fun. Even on CS tires it was a blast flinging it around Eiger. With all four of them, I got my best times around lap 8.

Now for my verdict:

Tier 1: Supra SZ-R wins by a huge margin

Tier 2: ST205 Rally Car wins, but the RZ was almost as much fun.
 
Aight, I held the duel for one more night and I got one more vote, so that puts a wrap to this duel. Some things didn't work out very well. I can definitely say that the Celica bros. were a stronger pair. Posting much faster lap times around Eiger Nordwand than the classic JDM duo.

So let's tally up the votes...

Tier one:
Celica: 3
Supra: 2

Tier two:
Celica: 4
Supra: 1

So the winners by way of double knockout are the...

01ZYG93NVSXcXglvA_0.jpg


1995-1998 Toyota Celica Twins!!!

Congratulations to @Draggon for posting the best times across the board in both tiers!

Maybe the Celica had enough of being in the Supra's shadow and decided it was time to come out to tan?

Don't worry if you're a Supra fan, the RZ may be returning in a future duel very soon...

Now onto the next duel!
 
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