Honda Civic - 10th/11th Generation

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Grandea GTR
The Kia Optima is able to generate 200 HP and costs $18k, and that's a midsize sedan. If Kia could pull off making a reliable, powerful, low-cost base model sedan, I feel that Honda has the potential to as well.
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The Optima has 200hp(192 according to their website), but it starts at 24,000 for that model. The same starting price and HP as the Si, but 500lbs heavier. I dont know the reliability of Kia's engines, but the Si was taking a beating almost daily and still living its life with no concern. If it was between a choice for those two, I would take the Civic. I do very much like the look of the new Optima's though.

Eunos_Cosmo
if Ford can make a $23,000 Mustang with more than 300hp, I'm sure *somebody* could make a 200hp car for $15k. Just put a big dumb engine in a little dumb car.
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I dont think anyone is making a car with 200HP with a price lower than 20k. Not while trying to achieve some sort of sportiness. The closest being the Fiesta ST, at 20k.
 
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chengman
Have you ever driven a Dodge Avenger? I would rather daily drive a Reliant Robin than rent an Avenger. The engine in the Mustang is mechanically identical to the one in the MazdaSpeed 3&6 so the costs of R&D have been cut down by a significant amount. Oh and don't forget that Ford used to own Mazda so they literally had a decade of R&D by Mazda. Yeah sure you can have a $15k car make 200hp, just expect the car to have the build quality of a TVR that was built by Jeremy Clarkson whilst drunk on Bacardi 151.
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1. It's not.
2. I was talking about the V6.
3. Even if it was, it doesn't change the fact that you can buy a car for $23k with more than 300hp.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
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1. It's not.
2. I was talking about the V6.
3. Even if it was, it doesn't change the fact that you can buy a car for $23k with more than 300hp.
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Mustangs still use a V6? What? What are you talking about now?
/s
 
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ImaRobot
The Optima has 200hp(192 according to their website), but it starts at 24,000 for that model. The same starting price and HP as the Si, but 500lbs heavier. I dont know the reliability of Kia's engines, but the Si was taking a beating almost daily and still living its life with no concern. If it was between a choice for those two, I would take the Civic. I do very much like the look of the new Optima's though.
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Kia's reliability has gotten much better over the past few years. I find it strange that you say that the Optima starts at $24,000, namely because all the Kia dealers I have been to have their Optimas start at $18,000.

chengman
Mustangs still use a V6? What? What are you talking about now?
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They still have a base V6.
 
Grandea GTR
Kia's reliability has gotten much better over the past few years. I find it strange that you say that the Optima starts at $24,000, namely because all the Kia dealers I have been to have their Optimas start at $18,000.
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The 200hp model has a 24k msrp on the website.

chengman
Mustangs still use a V6? What? What are you talking about now?
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Yes, and they are 300hp.

EDIT: actually, the starting price is 21k, my mistake.
 
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chengman
I was talking about the 2.3L engine that is shared with the MazdaSpeed 6 from a decade ago. Guess I forgot to put the /s
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Mazda stopped development of the MZR series when they introduced the Skyactiv series. The Ecoboost shares a similar block but is entirely different internally and has a completely different head design, all developed exclusively by Ford. To say they are mechanically identical is an absolute overstatement.

But just to be clear, the Mustang starts at $23,800 and has a 3.7 liter V6 making 300hp. Once again.

Did you guys know that you can buy a Mustang with 300hp for around $24k? Pretty cool, right? It has a V6.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Mazda stopped development of the MZR series when they introduced the Skyactiv series. The Ecoboost shares a similar block but is entirely different internally and has a completely different head design, all developed exclusively by Ford. To say they are mechanically identical is an absolute overstatement.

But just to be clear, the Mustang starts at $23,800 and has a 3.7 liter V6 making 300hp. Once again.

Did you guys know that you can buy a Mustang with 300hp for around $24k? Pretty cool, right? It has a V6.
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*insert Jalopnik article here saying you can buy a CLK 55 AMG Black for $21k here*
But really, it is the most power per buck for that range, but going down the price spectrum is another thing. You end up with teenagers wrapping Fiesta ST's around trees.
 
ImaRobot
I dont think anyone is making a car with 200HP with a price lower than 20k. Not while trying to achieve some sort of sportiness. The closest being the Fiesta ST, at 20k.
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Well, Kia does offer the Forte Koup with a 201 BHP 1.6T for near-enough right at $20k ($20,590 before destination). Outside of that, I can't think of anything that comes close.

Thing is, Honda doesn't need a 200 BHP Civic to get people in there. If the chassis is fun, and the power is enough (I'd say 160-170 BHP in that 1.5T would be plenty), they'll get people to buy. Get me a Civic with the 1.5T, 6MT, and a halfway decent suspension setup for under $20k, and I'm sold almost instantly.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Your posts lack clarity. For instance, I have no idea what you are trying to convey here.
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Making a 200hp car for $15K is not going to happen. The younger group of people(Basically high school) will end up wrapping the cars around trees and walls. It's what happened with the MR2 AW11 and Fiero GT. Expect your insurance rate to jump up. That's why the 1992 Toyota MR2 SW20 Turbo got suspension changes. Too many teenagers were wrapping the car around trees because of the snap oversteer and that's why no one will make a cheap and powerful car now. It ends up with death, ultra high insurance rates for teenagers, and lawsuits.
Watch this for reference if you don't understand
 
chengman
Making a 200hp car for $15K is not going to happen. The younger group of people(Basically high school) will end up wrapping the cars around trees and walls. It's what happened with the MR2 AW11 and Fiero GT.
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There's quite a bit of difference between a 200 BHP mid-engine performance car and a 200 BHP sport compact car that share's its bones with your Grandma's compact.

There are plenty of ways that a cheap, 200 BHP sedan or hatchback could be built, but that's ignoring the question as to whether or not the market would want it. Sure, you could probably shoehorn the LCV 2.5L I4 in the Chevy Cruze, and it would probably be cheaper than the current 1.4T, but I really don't think there would be that great of a performance benefit. Worse yet, the EPA rating would probably dip a bit, and where every MPG matters, GM would probably prefer to ignore it a bit longer. Strip off the nicer seats, power options, alloys, complicated suspension tune, yadda-yadda-yadda... There could be a sub-$18k, 200 BHP Cruze. But I'm not so sure that anyone outside of the Jalop crowd would want something like a stripper with a big engine.
 
chengman
Making a 200hp car for $15K is not going to happen. The younger group of people(Basically high school) will end up wrapping the cars around trees and walls. It's what happened with the MR2 AW11 and Fiero GT. Expect your insurance rate to jump up. That's why the 1992 Toyota MR2 SW20 Turbo got suspension changes. Too many teenagers were wrapping the car around trees because of the snap oversteer and that's why no one will make a cheap and powerful car now. It ends up with death, ultra high insurance rates for teenagers, and lawsuits.
Watch this for reference if you don't understand
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The AW11 and Fiero GT were quite a long ways away from 200hp (112hp and 135hp respectively) and any handling characteristics they have (tragic understeer, in the Fiero's case actually) are not a result of their power, but their chassis and suspension setup. If teenagers had new MR2 Turbos in 1992, it wasn't because they were cheap. They were equivalent to $30,000 in today's USD (base model) when new. I'm confused as to why you are citing exclusively mid engined cars that are a, not 200hp, or b, not $15k in your argument about 200hp cars for $15,000.

Relevant: In 2000, you could buy a base model V6 Mustang with 190hp for about $15,000. Inflation pushes this a little higher in terms of today's money, but it's still possible. I believe I remember our family getting a 2001 base V6 model for a dealer-incentivized $13,9xx, new. Again, it's a big dumb engine in a smallish dumb car. (Dumb meaning in this case simple, unsophisticated, and cheap)

Yeah, it probably won't happen. It's hard enough to find a new car under $15,000 regardless of power. Hell you can't even get a base model fit for $15k.
 
I just hope they turn it down a notch for their production model. The concept looks way overdone (Normally they all do).
 
The fad of joined up rear lights seems to be continuing...

I still prefer the next gen EU Civic to this one but the stylistic gap between to two seems to be closing.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Yeah, it probably won't happen. It's hard enough to find a new car under $15,000 regardless of power. Hell you can't even get a base model fit for $15k.
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Only cars that I know of that can go below the $15,000 mark brand new is the Mitsubishi Mirage and the Nissan Versa Sedan. And they are in a far away place from reaching 200 HP.
 
Grandea GTR
Only cars that I know of that can go below the $15,000 mark brand new is the Mitsubishi Mirage and the Nissan Versa Sedan. And they are in a far away place from reaching 200 HP.
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The Chevy sonic can be had for a few hundred under $15,000....and with a few basic bolt-ons + tune, they are easily capable of more than 200bhp. Maybe the Sonic is the answer, even if it requires a bit of cheating. The 1.0L Ecoboost Fiesta might also be capable of this. A dyno tune only gives about 150bhp.

I think the new Civic is pretty nice, at least in concept form.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
The AW11 and Fiero GT were quite a long ways away from 200hp (112hp and 135hp respectively) and any handling characteristics they have (tragic understeer, in the Fiero's case actually) are not a result of their power, but their chassis and suspension setup. If teenagers had new MR2 Turbos in 1992, it wasn't because they were cheap. They were equivalent to $30,000 in today's USD (base model) when new. I'm confused as to why you are citing exclusively mid engined cars that are a, not 200hp, or b, not $15k in your argument about 200hp cars for $15,000.

Relevant: In 2000, you could buy a base model V6 Mustang with 190hp for about $15,000. Inflation pushes this a little higher in terms of today's money, but it's still possible. I believe I remember our family getting a 2001 base V6 model for a dealer-incentivized $13,9xx, new. Again, it's a big dumb engine in a smallish dumb car. (Dumb meaning in this case simple, unsophisticated, and cheap)

Yeah, it probably won't happen. It's hard enough to find a new car under $15,000 regardless of power. Hell you can't even get a base model fit for $15k.
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A base Miata costs $25k so yeah... Although IF the Elio ever launches, someone will probably do some hayabusa swap somehow.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
The Chevy sonic can be had for a few hundred under $15,000....and with a few basic bolt-ons + tune, they are easily capable of more than 200bhp. Maybe the Sonic is the answer, even if it requires a bit of cheating.
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AFAIK, you can only get the 1.4T in the Sonic LT and LTZ, its just the standard 1.8L in the LS.

Its been such a disappointment that GM hasn't come out with a higher performance tune of the 1.4T. Their Stage Kit only bumps the output by 10 BHP, but others are getting 40+ with some small add-ons. The Sonic RS has such a great chassis, it deserves that extra boost in power to be competitive with the Fiesta ST. Here's hoping that new 1.5T makes its way into the next one - with a few more ponies to boot.
 
Honda Civic Type R renderings based on the Concept

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