Honesty Corner: Are You Prejudiced?

[Scaff]

The only issue I've had with the local permanent site is that one of them once pulled out in front of me as I was driving up the road next to the site

I grew up in what seems like the exact opposite of your family, funnily enough. I grew up in a household where racist and xenophobic views were drilled into me constantly and luckily I quickly (in my early teens) realised these were not how I felt at all. I still held on to some biases towards people (based around class, social welfare, even gender), that I now find appalling, until my mid 20s due to working in toxic environments with terrible people and getting a lot of my information from newspapers and nothing else. Luckily I was able to take a step back and challenge these biases and eventually change them.

My parents, however, still hold some racist views and believe a lot of what is printed in The Sun or The Daily Mail when it comes to race and immigration. Pretty much every time I visit them I end up expressing my disgust at something they have said. Brexit only served to make things worse in this regard.

Damn, I'm glad the closest I have to deal with regard to that is my Step-dad, but fortunately I don't see him that much and can distract him by talking about music.

I have however worked with far too many people who would get on great with your parents.

 

[Liquid]

It's usually quite easy to tell when someone's words come from a place of hate rather than simply not having knowledge, yours was definitely the latter so no worries there. I feel like people should be willing to help a little more than they are sometimes when it comes to letting others know about the sort of terms that are used and what they mean.

As for the term "transgenderism" I've never used it myself and can't imagine a situation where I would. I would usually say something like "I don't always understand the issues faced by the trans community". "Transgenderism" makes it sound a little bit like it's a lifestyle choice.

I get where you're coming from. If I have one failing, it's my compulsions with language. A concept noun is a thing, the "-isms" so to speak, and to me it's like there's the an adjective (irrespective of whether the thing itself is good or bad) and the concept noun behind it:

racist - racism
transgender - transgenderism

Obviously racism is bad and transgenderism is fine, I'm only trying to get the point across that I'm talking striclty in linguistic terms. I understand that it's not as... snappy as just saying trans or trans issues and as you say, that the stuffy word of transgenderism can be misinterpreted.

---

On a slightly related note, since starting this thread there's one thing that I have been thinking about. Amongst my friends I can count quite a few different "groups" who, depending on the context, whether it's ethnicity or sexuality, could be considered some sort of minority; black friends, Jewish friends, Arabic friends, Muslim friends, Slavic friends, Catholic friends, Protestant friends, active practitioners of religion, gay friends, bisexual friends, asexual friends etc. and combinations thereof.

Although I don't consider myself inherantly bigoted and as I've said, I think it's fair to say that I am ignorant of trans issues, this might be because I don't have any friends whom I know to be trans. Or even ever met someone who was outwardly trans. I've no doubt that I have met trans people but just not anybody that I knew was trans. This to me would largely explain why I take a muted view when it comes to trans issues or whatever hot potato is trending on social media.

I grew up in what seems like the exact opposite of your family, funnily enough. I grew up in a household where racist and xenophobic views were drilled into me constantly and luckily I quickly (in my early teens) realised these were not how I felt at all.

What was it that made you realise that you didn't share the same views as your parents? Was there a specific thing?

 

[Jezza819]

I don't know if this is considered prejudice or not but I have a bad problem being abrupt with or inconsiderate to strangers. I think I'm assuming the worst from people I don't know which could be looked on as some sort of prejudice I guess but it's not a gender or race specific thing.

I had an encounter last night which has really bothered me. Went to the grocery store and I was taking the groceries out to my car in the shopping cart and I swear I didn't meet anyone on the way out to my car which was parked sort of in the front of the parking lot closer to the store. There was a car parked in the spot to my right next to mine but no one got out of it so I wouldn't have met them as they were going into the store.

Open the liftgate to my vehicle and start putting the groceries in and a voice behind me says "do you need any help?" which kind of startles me. I turn around and it was a young lady probably in her early 20's or so and she asks again, "do you need any help?" to which I reply, "no thank you I think I can get it". So then she says and I think I'm remembering it correctly, "would you like me to put up your cart for you?" Again I think she's just being nice but I don't want to put her out as the rack is halfway down the parking lot so I say, "thanks but I'll get it". So she turns away and I put the last bag in the car, shut the liftgate and start to roll the cart down towards the rack but I look back and she's walking to go into the grocery store.

And that's when it hit me what she actually was meaning. She was going into the store so she was offering to take my cart in and use it herself. But she really didn't phrase it that way to me. If she would have said, "I'm going in so I can take your cart if you want me to" then I would have said sure and I appreciate that. But I really started feeling bad that I was so abrupt with her and probably sounded like a jerk when she was just trying to do something nice. I think it was just the fact that she startled me so bad because I really didn't know where she came from that I reacted the way I did.

 

[JKgo]

I've had my fair share of prejudices. And I'm working on getting rid of them. Not sure how successful I am with it, though. I try my best to give people, strangers and the like, a chance but often the first thought I think about is, do they have ulterior motives when approaching me? I'd catch myself thinking things sometimes worse than that and feel bad about it. Maybe it's next to impossible to get rid of the prejudices drilled deep into my instinct at this point.

On a lighter note, I just can't, for the life of me, stand cheesy power/symphonic metal bands. There's one of my prejudices.

 

[Biggles]

I don't know if this is considered prejudice or not but I have a bad problem being abrupt with or inconsiderate to strangers. I think I'm assuming the worst from people I don't know which could be looked on as some sort of prejudice I guess but it's not a gender or race specific thing.

I had an encounter last night which has really bothered me. Went to the grocery store and I was taking the groceries out to my car in the shopping cart and I swear I didn't meet anyone on the way out to my car which was parked sort of in the front of the parking lot closer to the store. There was a car parked in the spot to my right next to mine but no one got out of it so I wouldn't have met them as they were going into the store.

Open the liftgate to my vehicle and start putting the groceries in and a voice behind me says "do you need any help?" which kind of startles me. I turn around and it was a young lady probably in her early 20's or so and she asks again, "do you need any help?" to which I reply, "no thank you I think I can get it". So then she says and I think I'm remembering it correctly, "would you like me to put up your cart for you?" Again I think she's just being nice but I don't want to put her out as the rack is halfway down the parking lot so I say, "thanks but I'll get it". So she turns away and I put the last bag in the car, shut the liftgate and start to roll the cart down towards the rack but I look back and she's walking to go into the grocery store.

And that's when it hit me what she actually was meaning. She was going into the store so she was offering to take my cart in and use it herself. But she really didn't phrase it that way to me. If she would have said, "I'm going in so I can take your cart if you want me to" then I would have said sure and I appreciate that. But I really started feeling bad that I was so abrupt with her and probably sounded like a jerk when she was just trying to do something nice. I think it was just the fact that she startled me so bad because I really didn't know where she came from that I reacted the way I did.

Jerk!

You should consider yourself lucky a woman "in her early '20's" even notices you exist.

 

[Jezza819]

Jerk!

You should consider yourself lucky a woman "in her early '20's" even notices you exist.

Yeah I think it could have been a case of "aw, let me try to help this old man out"

 

[Biggles]

Yeah I think it could have been a case of "aw, let me try to help this old man out"

The beginning of the end is when they start calling you "sir". I hate when that happens.

 

[Famine]

I couldn't really say if they're more frequent now than then, they're not that frequent - I'd say maybe every 3-4 years or so they turn up where I live. Councils probably invest more now in building specific locations for them, and they're generally tucked away from what I've seen.

There are a lot of Irish traveller groups where I live, including a permanent site a few miles down the road, and it certainly does feel like they are frequently being reported on in the local papers and on local news sites for setting up camp, destroying the land, and then moving on. But I'd be curious to see how much of that is just the media only reporting on those who cause trouble. They have no reason to report on people just living their daily lives.

I grew up in a village with a reasonable number of Irish Traveller families that had 'gone brick' as it was termed. Never really had any issue with them that I can recall.

Interestingly, I accidentally drove down the entrance road to a permanent traveller site in Hull last week. I was hunting for a place to shoot a car and zipped into this dead straight piece of road with a bunch of teenagers loafing about while one of them cocked about on a dirt bike with no plates. Of course I was in the MX-5 and the roof was off, so pretty much maximum vulnerability.

My MX-5 sounds a little fruity, courtesy of a stainless exhaust (genuine fit, from MX-5 Parts), so as I went to do a quick three pointer in a convenient wide bit, the car snarled a little bit. The teenagers went from glaring at the interloper to "GO ON GIVE IT SOME!", so I dutifully obliged and left a 200-foot eleven for them. The cops are probably looking there for a stolen car even right now


I wouldn't say I have any particular prejudice against the traveller community, but it didn't feel like a terribly safe situation to be in and I'm quite glad it only took my own natural childishness to remove myself unharmed. They also seem to be rammed into a tiny piece of land in the middle of an industrial zone which smelled pretty much solidly of acetic acid the entire time I was in the area.

 

[Keef]

Spoiler alert: for racist & sexist & just plain weird content:

Re: racist & sexist

So we all know that blackface is considered racist because its related to how black people used to not be allowed to participate in productions at all, white actors were used to imitate and make fun of black culture, etc etc. But I don't blame presumably a young person for not understanding the context. For example, watch this video but assume you have no historical reference for blackface and suddenly it becomes "why are those idiots walking around with face paint on?". It becomes dumb and hilarious honestly. They're not even imitating black people - they're using their white American voices, they're expressing white American values of going to the beach and having fun, white American values of dancing and mingling with the ladies, they're not doing anything at all related to black American culture specifically. They just have face paint on. And I ask, why? What ever was the purpose of face paint for this particular production? If these blackface actors were meant to be imitating black people then why do they sound and act white? Typically at this time, black people would be portrayed as harassing women and whatnot but that's not happening here. I don't understand why they used blackface and frankly they just look like a bunch of idiots with face paint on which arguably is embarrassing punishment enough for wearing it.

As for sexism, I'm not really seeing much of that either. I see guys and girls having a good time singing and dancing at the pool or on the beach like guys and girls do. I see no harassment but I do see shared leading and backup roles. Perhaps the women being the only ones in bathing suits and modelling could be construed as sexist but they seem to be enjoying looking beautiful just like a lot of girls on my Instagram do. Of course we can probably assume that the men got paid twice as much and who the hell knows what kind of behavior went on off set but this production itself doesn't strike me as particularly racist or sexist. If anything, this production is much more mild than what actually occurred in these people's daily lives at the time. This is nothing like Mad Men for example which is so disrespectful I've never watched more than a couple episodes. I realize that show portrayed a different time period but the discussion around the show was never about the problems of that time period so if that was ever the point, everybody missed it.

 

[ryzno]

The beginning of the end is when they start calling you "sir". I hate when that happens.

Must be the Southerner in me, I call everyone sir or ma'am.

 

[Famine]

Must be the Southerner in me, I call everyone sir or ma'am.

Captain Janeway would dislike you.

 

[Liquid]

Captain Janeway would dislike you.

"There are three ways of doing things; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway."

 

[Famine]

"There are three ways of doing things; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway."

It's the same as the wrong way "but faster." - Max Power

 

[Biggles]

Re: racist & sexist

So we all know that blackface is considered racist because its related to how black people used to not be allowed to participate in productions at all, white actors were used to imitate and make fun of black culture, etc etc. But I don't blame presumably a young person for not understanding the context. For example, watch this video but assume you have no historical reference for blackface and suddenly it becomes "why are those idiots walking around with face paint on?". It becomes dumb and hilarious honestly. They're not even imitating black people - they're using their white American voices, they're expressing white American values of going to the beach and having fun, white American values of dancing and mingling with the ladies, they're not doing anything at all related to black American culture specifically. They just have face paint on. And I ask, why? What ever was the purpose of face paint for this particular production? If these blackface actors were meant to be imitating black people then why do they sound and act white? Typically at this time, black people would be portrayed as harassing women and whatnot but that's not happening here. I don't understand why they used blackface and frankly they just look like a bunch of idiots with face paint on which arguably is embarrassing punishment enough for wearing it.

As for sexism, I'm not really seeing much of that either. I see guys and girls having a good time singing and dancing at the pool or on the beach like guys and girls do. I see no harassment but I do see shared leading and backup roles. Perhaps the women being the only ones in bathing suits and modelling could be construed as sexist but they seem to be enjoying looking beautiful just like a lot of girls on my Instagram do. Of course we can probably assume that the men got paid twice as much and who the hell knows what kind of behavior went on off set but this production itself doesn't strike me as particularly racist or sexist. If anything, this production is much more mild than what actually occurred in these people's daily lives at the time. This is nothing like Mad Men for example which is so disrespectful I've never watched more than a couple episodes. I realize that show portrayed a different time period but the discussion around the show was never about the problems of that time period so if that was ever the point, everybody missed it.

Mad Men was excruciatingly sexist ... but I don't think you're right that the discussion around the show didn't address that. It seems to me that that was one of the major themes of the show & was often a point of discussion (although I watched it on Netflix, so after its original run).

My understanding is that the blackface thing has its origins in vaudeville. I don't think it was overtly racist in its intent, but it seems extremely racist - not to mention bizarre - in today's world. My parents were staunchly against racism in the 1960's ... but didn't seem to make the connection to the implications of the Black & White Minstrel Show.

 

[Moglet]

On a slightly related note, since starting this thread there's one thing that I have been thinking about. Amongst my friends I can count quite a few different "groups" who, depending on the context, whether it's ethnicity or sexuality, could be considered some sort of minority; black friends, Jewish friends, Arabic friends, Muslim friends, Slavic friends, Catholic friends, Protestant friends, active practitioners of religion, gay friends, bisexual friends, asexual friends etc. and combinations thereof.

Although I don't consider myself inherantly bigoted and as I've said, I think it's fair to say that I am ignorant of trans issues, this might be because I don't have any friends whom I know to be trans. Or even ever met someone who was outwardly trans. I've no doubt that I have met trans people but just not anybody that I knew was trans. This to me would largely explain why I take a muted view when it comes to trans issues or whatever hot potato is trending on social media.

It's still a fairly rare thing, in the US only 0.6% of the US population identify as transgender so it's not surprising that many people don't know anyone who is openly trans. I know there are a few trans people on GTP though (myself included, I'm non-binary) and I'd hope that we can help answer some questions or offer some views from this side of things.

What was it that made you realise that you didn't share the same views as your parents? Was there a specific thing?

I went to school with a variety of different ethnicities and over time it eroded those views. This is also what helped change my views on lots of other things in later life; I switched jobs from working with Daily Mail reading white cis men to working with a huge variety of people from all different backgrounds and of all different genders.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Mad Men was excruciatingly sexist ... but I don't think you're right that the discussion around the show didn't address that. It seems to me that that was one of the major themes of the show & was often a point of discussion (although I watched it on Netflix, so after its original run).

It showed the what the sixties was like, warts and all - it didn't set out to offend anyone out of disrespect and issues of the time were handled intelligently.

There's even an episode where Roger comes out in blackface and you can tell by Pete and Don's reactions that society has moved on (slightly) from Roger's era.

 

[Liquid]

Coincidence Alert!

I'm currently doing some proofreading for both an NGO and an embassy. It's about 35 different short documents. What's most of it about? The work of NGOs with the Roma community in Slovakia and their efforts to educate Roma communities and their non-Roma neighbours, as well as promote Roma arts and culture.

What are the chances...

 

[TenEightyOne]

My understanding is that the blackface thing has its origins in vaudeville. I don't think it was overtly racist in its intent, but it seems extremely racist - not to mention bizarre - in today's world

Even at the time some of the vaudeville blackface routines were incredibly racist, based around the perceived inabilities and sub-humanities of black people. These were originally filler routines, those comedic front-of-curtain escapades that went on while the set was changed but became so popular that some became bigger stars than anyone they ever supported. As time went on there were famous, developed routines that were less racist in their content but which still built on those early tropes.

Now for my prejudice. I can't pass a traveller layup without imagining that crime will be up in that area, disgusting gorger yam so. And I feel like I'm probably right, so I know I can't trust it. I struggle with getting my head around the rights and wrongs of my own feelings and the situation of traveller communities in Britain. Much of how they are I admire but the amount of social friction is evidently unmanageable. How to fix? Dunno.

 

[Joey D]

Am I prejudice? Maybe. It really depends on the definition you use I suppose since prejudice is typically disliking someone or something without a reason or disliking them because of a certain characteristic.

For me, I have a real issue with China, particularly Chinese immigrants who come to the US and then proceed to hate everything about the country. I have a friend who's married to a girl from southern China and she absolutely hates the US, however, she chose to come here for school and chose to stay. Anytime someone brings up anything remotely against China, she goes off on a tirade saying that it's nothing but American propaganda. For example, someone on social media posted about the genocide of the Uyghurs and she went nuts claiming that the Chinese government isn't capable of genocide. She rejects that Tiananmen Square occurred. And god helps anyone, mostly me, who blames China for SARS-CoV-2 since she claims that the Americans released it. Also, she will flat out hate you if you consider Taiwan, Hong Kong, or Macau anything other than China.

I'm all for people immigrating to the US, but don't immigrate here and then parrot the horrid Chinese government. I totally agree that the American government has its share of issues, but none of those excuse what China is doing (or any country).

Oddly enough, most first-generation Chinese immigrants I know are all roughly the same too. Once they're third or fourth generation, then they're just as American as anyone else.

These interactions have completely turned me off to wanting to even get to know first-generation Chinese immigrants. I'm sure not every Chinese person is like that, I mean just looking at the numbers 1 out of every 7 people on the planet lives in China. Add in those who are ethically Chinese living abroad and the number is staggeringly large.

Should I give people a chance? Probably, but my hate for the Chinese government, unfortunately, spills over into the people since they parrot it. I know some of it's brainwashing, but if you've lived elsewhere and had access to mostly open media, then you should probably have some sort of enlightenment.

As for people of other Asian descent? I've never had any issue with them. Even those of Asian descent that originated and immigrated from Taiwan, Hong Kong, or Macau are all seemingly OK too and absolutely understand how horrible the Chinese government is.

 

[Shaun]

Yes, politicians are terrible people

Am I prejudice?

I'd say yes you are.

 

[UKMikey]

I'd say yes you are.

I think politicians have proven themselves to be wicked, lying snakes in the grass so often that what @Joey has is more like "afterjudice" or "postjudice".

 

[Imari]

I think politicians have proven themselves to be wicked, lying snakes in the grass so often that what @Joey has is more like "afterjudice" or "postjudice".

I would have described it as "mildly perceptive".

 

[Joey D]

I'd say yes you are.

I've accepted who I am when it comes to politicians.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Should I give people a chance? Probably, but my hate for the Chinese government, unfortunately, spills over into the people since they parrot it. I know some of it's brainwashing, but if you've lived elsewhere and had access to mostly open media, then you should probably have some sort of enlightenment.

No offence meant, but I think a lot of people have looked at America in recent times, and thought the same. Looking at both from the outside it's hard to imagine how things could end up like that, from the inside maybe things are different.

 

[UKMikey]

No offence meant, but I think a lot of people have looked at America in recent times, and thought the same. Looking at both from the outside it's hard to imagine how things could end up like that, from the inside maybe things are different.

I can't really agree with this. My personal prejudice from having encountered mainland Chinese people and been influenced by my Singapore Chinese family's impressions of them is that the one child policy may have led to a nation of entitled only children.

Even the "ugliest" Americans aren't quite in the same ballpark even though I might vehemently disagree with their politics. Nor do I believe the US government to be as authoritarian as the CCP seem to be with regards to the crushing of dissent despite the GOP in some states taking baby steps down that road as regards voter suppression measures.

 

[Liquid]

The more I think about it, the more I really like @Imari's definition of prejudice.

I'd think of prejudice as more like when you stick to your assumptions when faced with alternative information, or when you refuse to attempt to gain information when it would be easily and safely available (usually just talking to the person).

The bolded part in particular.

I think natural suspicion is part of human nature but it's what you do afterwards that counts towards the content of your character.

 

[Liquid]

@Joey D On the subject of Chinese people outside of China singing China's praises and zealously deflecting all criticism, I have heard anecdotally that this is also true of Turkish people in other countries, particularly in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands. As well as anecdotes, it's just something that is held to be true; Turkish people in Germany or the Netherlands love Turkey and Erdogan so much even though they don't live there.

However all the Turkish people I know think Erdogan :censored:s goats and absolutely hate him. Same for every Iranian I've ever met; they loathe the Iranian government and are deeply upset at what they have done to their home and them themselves as a people, their reputation around the world.

In both of these cases, Turkish people and Iranians I personally know, it is people from Turkey and Iran who have moved abroad. It's an inversion of what you have experienced with Chinese people, which is strange to me because it is 'supposed to be' the other way around; the second-generation and onwards are blindly and obediently defensive to the ethnic homeland because they actually don't really know the country properly and didn't experience the badness and negativity that their parents did.

 

[Liquid]

Dating Apps

When people front-load their profile with their character traits or other characteristics, beliefs etc., it's an easy way to know whom to ignore or otherwise not be interested in. It is a literal prejudice to pre-judge someone without speaking to them but knowing that they are into things that you know you aren't in favour of, don't like or don't agree with, is that morally okay?

To me there are certain things that simply come down to compatablility:

It's fine to be a vegan but I don't think I could click with someone whose diet is fundamentally too different to mine.
It's fine to be religious but I don't think I could click with someone very religious who, let's say, actively goes to a place of worship every week.

There's every chance that, for example, a religious vegan could be my dream woman but based on an internal calculation of probability, it seems unlikely.

At the same time, you also see people requesting certain traits such as "please be 1.80m" (about 6 foot). Good way to know straight away that they have arbitrary standards and that, if you don't already meet them, you've dodged a bullet.

 

[UKMikey]

Dating Apps

When people front-load their profile with their character traits or other characteristics, beliefs etc., it's an easy way to know whom to ignore or otherwise not be interested in. It is a literal prejudice to pre-judge someone without speaking to them but knowing that they are into things that you know you aren't in favour of, don't like or don't agree with, is that morally okay?

To me there are certain things that simply come down to compatablility:

It's fine to be a vegan but I don't think I could click with someone whose diet is fundamentally too different to mine.
It's fine to be religious but I don't think I could click with someone very religious who, let's say, actively goes to a place of worship every week.

There's every chance that, for example, a religious vegan could be my dream woman but based on an internal calculation of probability, it seems unlikely.

At the same time, you also see people requesting certain traits such as "please be 1.80m" (about 6 foot). Good way to know straight away that they have arbitrary standards and that, if you don't already meet them, you've dodged a bullet.

 

[Exorcet]

Dating Apps

When people front-load their profile with their character traits or other characteristics, beliefs etc., it's an easy way to know whom to ignore or otherwise not be interested in. It is a literal prejudice to pre-judge someone without speaking to them but knowing that they are into things that you know you aren't in favour of, don't like or don't agree with, is that morally okay?

I think so. It's not prejudice, you're being given information from the person in question so you probably assume it's more accurate than something that would form from internal prejudice. Also like you pointed out, it's practical. A dating site with 10000 memebers would provide more problems than solutions if you had to look through all 10000 members in depth with no filtering.

To me there are certain things that simply come down to compatablility:

It's fine to be a vegan but I don't think I could click with someone whose diet is fundamentally too different to mine.
It's fine to be religious but I don't think I could click with someone very religious who, let's say, actively goes to a place of worship every week.

Yeah, it's more important to make sure those descriptions, tags, and traits, are listed in a way that's useful. Just being vegan doesn't say as much as a total unwillingness to socialize with nonvegans for example.

There's every chance that, for example, a religious vegan could be my dream woman but based on an internal calculation of probability, it seems unlikely.

That's the issue with statistics, you trade off some accuracy for reduced work. Sometimes it's a necessary tradeoff to make.