HP vs PP?????

A

atlhardhitters1

23
United States
GEORGIA
atlhardhitters1
Ever since they implemented the PP system a lot of racers hosts rooms under that system. i think it's a unfair system correct me if i'm wrong, but the info only says it limits the cars performance. that's a broad statement. I would like to know what's limited. i have been in rooms where guys find a high HP low PP care and own you only because the they out power you by 100 to 150 hp. ie: 458/Chevy products.

I normally host HP limits with cars that are in the same class, no LMP cars racing against touring cars. i have been in many rooms where every-one's car met the PP limit in fairness but as soon as the race starts some guy is 36 to 50 sec faster than everyone else.... that's not fair! He's fast because he added weight to a car that already had low weight/PP and high HP.

That's why i think that if it was only HP limit there wouldn't be any engine boost. It's cool if you like that sort of thing but many pro series limits the HP/t.c like F1 and the La Mans. I'M just wanted to see what you guys think, and yes i know my writing style will piss off my former English teacher, but so lol. the best i think is to host my own fair room.
 
I believe the differences between cars when you limit weight/hp as opposed to PP, is far greater. The PP system isn't perfect, but it's much closer than most people realize. I've tuned dozens of cars at various PP levels, the usual 450, 500, 550 ,600 and there are at least 25 cars at each level within a second of each other at most tracks.

The reason certain cars often show up better than others at certain pp levels, like the NSX Type R 02' at 550pp for example, is they are widely available in the NCD and easier to go fast in than some other cars. Some cars need some dramatic tuning and a less aggressive driving style to get the most out of them, whereas the NSX has good turn in and grip stock, without much of a tune.

I have at least a dozen cars at 550pp that are equal to or surpass the NSX but it took a while to find and tune them , something a lot of guys are unwilling or unable to do.
 
atlhardhitters1
many pro series limits the HP/t.c like F1 and the La Mans.
Click to expand...

They also limit 100000000000 other things because HP is a terrible way to measure car performance.

PP is many, many times better than HP and it really should be the only method used out of the two available.

You say that you use HP and then choose cars to race based on class. Why not choose PP and then pick cars to race based on class?

What happens when you use hp is this:

Set hp to 600.
Guy 1 chooses 599
Guy 2 chooses Furai

Guy 2 laps guy one with 50 less hp because his car is 1000 times better.

In a PP race, the Furai would be heavily penalized.
 
That's a good comment; However, they still don't list what the PP limits it would be good to know more details. at least when there's a HP limit you can also set a weight limit,as for PP when you try to make the limit the biggest difference maker is bringing down the power. once that is down now add weight, now you can add more power so now your car is closer to its original power vs others. i personally wouldn't run a car below 80% of its max power it just destroys the power band.

To put it in a nutshell it comes down to the host and the racers in the room to agree what cars to use. i wish i could see the items , because there is so much that affects the cars performance i would like your own tuning/driving be the determining factor. you example was great similar to what i wrote about under pp limits you still can have a 150 hp advantage. the host/room will have to find common ground. thanks for you inputs . later ( attack the track not the car!)
 
Exorcet
They also limit 100000000000 other things because HP is a terrible way to measure car performance.

PP is many, many times better than HP and it really should be the only method used out of the two available.

You say that you use HP and then choose cars to race based on class. Why not choose PP and then pick cars to race based on class?

What happens when you use hp is this:

Set hp to 600.
Guy 1 chooses 599
Guy 2 chooses Furai

Guy 2 laps guy one with 50 less hp because his car is 1000 times better.

In a PP race, the Furai would be heavily penalized.
Click to expand...

Another great example of that is when I lap the field 10 times at the Laguna Seca 200mi Enduro with a 160hp Suzuki GSX R/4 Concept Car when the rest of the field is 400hp and more...Hp is still only one variable where pp tries to factor more into the equation to better level the playing field.
 
that suzuki that you're talking about wouldn't be allowed. i've raced against it with friends and it's just like that chapperel car and a few others no no no cant' use it. that car and the fan car should only race with cars like it. now answer my question about everyone meeting the PP limit but two out of ten cars have almost a 200hp advantage. how is that fair? it's not it has to be the host and room to regulate those things. Some rooms do but a lot don't the only counter is to choose the same car, then it comes down to tuning/driving.

I don't do that, because i'm not a ZR1/Camaro SS fan. have you noticed that a lot of people with the ID: Viper never use it they run with a ZR1? true dodge men will never touch that Chevy lol.
 
atlhardhitters1
everyone meeting the PP limit but two out of ten cars have almost a 200hp advantage. how is that fair?
Click to expand...

How is it unfair. The cars with 200 more horsepower could be slower. Great example, Furai vs Veyron. The Veyron has double the HP. It's still greatly inferior.

Anyway, the only way that you will get a 200 hp difference from PP restrictions is when cars have completely different weight classes or very different levels of downforce. Yet even then, PP will at least mitigate the imbalances that spring from that. HP would do nothing at all.

The best system would involve PP and HP.
 
PP system is still flaud though. I mean a Caterham at over 600PP?!?
 
not exactly 200hp but close to it was getting ready to say join my friends room where those guys average 650 to 660 pp limit. yes you are soooooo right the best system would consist of both hp and pp. good reply.

DaLightninRacer
PP system is still flaud though. I mean a Caterham at over 600PP?!?
Click to expand...

YEA i know bro. that reminds me i got mixed up in a race where everyone had VETTS CAMAROS or FORD TEST CARS. i held my own with my NSX. but i think i had the better race even though i didn't win, I drove what i wanted to drive instead of following the crowd.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
atlhardhitters1
not exactly 200hp but close to it was getting ready to say join my friends room where those guys average 650 to 660 pp limit. yes you are soooooo right the best system would consist of both hp and pp. good reply.
Click to expand...


What do you drive in that 650 PP rooms?
LMP´s or Group C´s?



raVer
 
-raVer-
What do you drive in that 650 PP rooms?
LMP´s or Group C´s?



raVer
Click to expand...

that would make sense right? but no they would run everything else and sometimes run LMPs. right now at that pp the new DLC cars are popular as well as the gtr that KAZ drove in the 24h race. my thing is at that pp i say yea lets go LMP !
 
atlhardhitters1
that would make sense right? but no they would run everything else and sometimes run LMPs. right now at that pp the new DLC cars are popular as well as the gtr that KAZ drove in the 24h race. my thing is at that pp i say yea lets go LMP !
Click to expand...


If you can keep up with a 620 bhp Minolta , than all is good. :)



raVer
 
In my opinion the pp system seem off to me. I understand what the brother is talking about. A car like the mazda rx7 02 full modified with out aero has about 596 or something pp and if the rx7 go up against a car like a viper acr with 600pp the rx7 is much faster. Aero affects the pp also. From my experience if you are racing in a room with the pp limited, avoid using a car with any kind of aero parts installed and try to get the most hp as possible. I mentioned the rx7 because it has an edge on most street cars I have tried at 600pp that includes most of the supercars in the game.
 
pjs123456789
In my opinion the pp system seem off to me. I understand what the brother is talking about. A car like the mazda rx7 02 full modified with out aero has about 596 or something pp and if the rx7 go up against a car like a viper acr with 600pp the rx7 is much faster. Aero affects the pp also. From my experience if you are racing in a room with the pp limited, avoid using a car with any kind of aero parts installed and try to get the most hp as possible. I mentioned the rx7 because it has an edge on most street cars I have tried at 600pp that includes most of the supercars in the game.
Click to expand...


My Viper SRT10 Coupe is at 1000 bhp and 635 PP.

The only problem is : How do I wrestle this monster around twisty tracks without downforce?



raVer
 
pjs123456789
In my opinion the pp system seem off to me. I understand what the brother is talking about. A car like the mazda rx7 02 full modified with out aero has about 596 or something pp and if the rx7 go up against a car like a viper acr with 600pp the rx7 is much faster. Aero affects the pp also. From my experience if you are racing in a room with the pp limited, avoid using a car with any kind of aero parts installed and try to get the most hp as possible. I mentioned the rx7 because it has an edge on most street cars I have tried at 600pp that includes most of the supercars in the game.
Click to expand...

right! my whole goal was to see what the PP affects in the car we know what affects PP limit Aero, HP,and Weight. so by that logic a HP and weight limit would do right? It's like a funny conspiracy just because no info on what is limited is given. some say it's a fair system but who besides Kaz and gt5 staff can answer this? i was stationed in japan for six years and my Japanese is kinda ok and my wife is Japanese, so i was thinking of getting as close as i can to the source to get the answers. she's in japan now i'll see what we can work out guys.

Now for the rest of you this will make a good discussion. What dose the PP limit is it overall braking, transmission, engine performance, tyre wear, torque delivery, or suspension? All of those things has to do with performance. while in the menu it just reads" limits the cars performance" I'm sorry but that's not enough for me. In the military you learn new ways of thinking, and looking at things from every angel. This thread wasn't meant to be serious but the more you racers put your two cents in the more i want the answer.

but like i said i'm going to USE my wife and my limited nihongo skills to find the answer, and enjoy playing the game. i'm on just about every night stop buy we run pp and some hp races i'll be online in like thirty mins i gotta look for smokes . PEACE

-raVer-
My Viper SRT10 Coupe is at 1000 bhp and 635 PP.

The only problem is : How do I wrestle this monster around twisty tracks without downforce?



raVer
Click to expand...

That's where the suspension and LSD: settings come into play. depending on the track the down force comes into play as the speed increases, but the aforementioned will have a big effect. my friends and i did 15 lap LMPs on the nurb and this one guy in the 787b ran 7 laps without pitting and he was still running a pace to where he lapped me twice in my audi r8 lmp. we race with no aids. hes fast as all hell, but he always has the perfect setup every time. i feel like Jessie ventura on conspiracy theory LOL but yea tune it right and she'll submit to you!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
atlhardhitters1
Ever since they implemented the PP system a lot of racers hosts rooms under that system. i think it's a unfair system correct me if i'm wrong, but the info only says it limits the cars performance. that's a broad statement. I would like to know what's limited. i have been in rooms where guys find a high HP low PP care and own you only because the they out power you by 100 to 150 hp. ie: 458/Chevy products.

I normally host HP limits with cars that are in the same class, no LMP cars racing against touring cars. i have been in many rooms where every-one's car met the PP limit in fairness but as soon as the race starts some guy is 36 to 50 sec faster than everyone else.... that's not fair! He's fast because he added weight to a car that already had low weight/PP and high HP.

That's why i think that if it was only HP limit there wouldn't be any engine boost. It's cool if you like that sort of thing but many pro series limits the HP/t.c like F1 and the La Mans. I'M just wanted to see what you guys think, and yes i know my writing style will piss off my former English teacher, but so lol. the best i think is to host my own fair room.
Click to expand...

I agree, I usualy host free no rule rooms myself. Anyways, they are different mainly in weight I have noticed. Example, if you do the remove weight tune thingy, it will increase the PP, but wont change your BHP/HP at all.
 
Johnnypenso
I have at least a dozen cars at 550pp that are equal to or surpass the NSX but it took a while to find and tune them , something a lot of guys are unwilling or unable to do.
Click to expand...

Care you list a couple of those please, im getting sick of 550pp ing it up with just my nsx and bmw gtr.
 
Reading your posts can be fairly confusing, but i think i understand what you're gripe with the PP system is. You see it as high horsepower cars are lucky as they can pull away from there evenly matched low weight cars on the straights, right? Well, to this i must remind you thaton every track different cars will have their advantages. On a track with a lot of straights (like Francorchamps) the cars with alot of BHP will be superior. But on a twisty circuit (such as Eiger Nordwand) the light cars will leave them behind 8/10.

Here's what i know for sure affects the Performance Point system
- Power
- Weight
- Aero
- Weight Distribution (Front-Rear)
- Drivetrain

I can say for sure that these do not effect the PP system, as tuning the aftermarket variations make no difference in your number
- Transmission
- Suspension
- LSD

Unfortunately there is many cars that get screwed by the PP system, the Caterham being a prime example. Likewise, there are cars, such as any S2000 that get rewarded. But all in all it is a very good system that does a far better job than the BHP/KG system which hugely helps cars with high aero.

The secret to having good online PP battles, is to restrict certain cars from competing, even though they are technically in the PP and to make sure all racers are aware of these restrictins prior to the race.
 
Correction to my earlier post, the pp system seem to work. What makes the difference is the track sellection. Example1, my rx7 full modified with all parts without aero had a pp rating of 576, my stock viper acr had a pp rating of 581 after doing some test this was the result. On Daytona the rx7 was 2 and a little seconds faster than the acr it was hitting like 10mph faster on the stretch. So from the example of daytona some cars on certain tracks will have a big advantage even though the pp is around the same thing. Example2, I used the same to cars on the short suzuka circuit, my best with the acr was 52.5 seconds on the other hand the rx7 ran a little over 53 seconds. The rx7 again was faster on the straight but was not stable enough in the turns so I lost time in the turns making the acr the better car in that test. In my opinion I think the pp systems gives a good idea of the overall performance of the car but it does not accurately create a fair match between cars.
 
I didn't like the PP at first, because I knew there would be cheat cars now (some chassis are just simply better than others), but the ol HP limit way doesn't compensate for downforce vs top speed, where if you shave off your downforce you can now add it to the power side, and it makes it seem like now we have downforce vs top speed effect. PS I had to create a car comparison sheet at the Nurburgring which took forever, but now I know which cars are the cheat cars'
 
joetruckv8
I didn't like the PP at first, because I knew there would be cheat cars now (some chassis are just simply better than others), but the ol HP limit way doesn't compensate for downforce vs top speed, where if you shave off your downforce you can now add it to the power side, and it makes it seem like now we have downforce vs top speed effect. PS I had to create a car comparison sheet at the Nurburgring which took forever, but now I know which cars are the cheat cars'
Click to expand...

What are the cheat cars may I ask? my friends normally host 640-660 pp lobbies and i feel the best way to compete is to chose a like car. I wish gt5 use both pp and hp to limit races .
 
noisiaturismo
PP systems sucks, try using a Caterham against other cars with that PP.
Click to expand...

There are always exceptions to the rule, yeah the caterham falls inbetween the cracks. but by and large, the PP system works.

I went to a 500 HP limited server the other day, and low and behold there was a formula GT smoking everyone

PP is not the best system, cars outshine others. but hp/weight is even worse.
 
I think setting a room for a specific car, a set horsepower, weight and downforce would be a good choice. In this way cars can be distinguished by colors and tunes. Then set like 3 laps to qualify for starting postion. This in my opinion would create an even playing field. And to create a greater challenge to this use raming penalities(when someone run into you), comfort tires and driving aids off except abs. Just my opinion.
 
Audi R8 Tronic, Audi R8 V10, both Lambo's, BMW GTR & CSL, watch out for all the lotus especially the EVORA!, and the LFA 10 because it doesn't have adjustable downforce, but this car is only good up to 588pp. Any pp over that and you wont see this car anymore. Also keep an eye out for the Ferrari's in the right hands they will check out on you! O, I almost forgot that damn NSX concept!
 

Latest Posts

Back