Just War Theory

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I wrote this paper last spring on the justification or warfare for my English class, and thought I would share it here. It should spawn some good debate.

The Endless Debate: The Justification of Warfare
Whenever a nation goes to war, that nation’s population is naturally split into two groups: those in support of the war, and those against the war. Warfare is a unique issue, especially in modern times. Those who are against the war usually take their position because they believe that the war is unjust. The pro-peace, anti-war group believes that the nation’s motives for going to war are not worth bloodshed, and part of this group, the pacifists, believe that all wars should be avoided, regardless of the consequences of not fighting. All opinions on warfare falls into one of three categories: pacifist, just-war, or realist. A pacifist believes strictly in peace, a just-war theorist believes that some warfare can be just, and a realist believes that all is fair in war.
In the past fifteen years, the United States used military force in four different conflicts around the world: Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. Each of these conflicts were questioned and debated by both America’s public and the people of the world. America also looked to enter the Syrian Civil War, but ended up deciding against involvement. In no other time period has the United States, the world’s sole superpower and often dubbed, “the world police,” been involved in that number of conflicts. Due to the innately controversial nature of war, the debate is arguably more important now than ever before. In truth, not all wars are evil; warfare can be justified.
Being a lead voice in the warfare debate in the United States, the Christian majority usually takes the side of the “just war” theorists. Described in the Christian Bible is God’s frequent support of (and, at times, indifference to) the Israelite army. At one point in the Old Testament, God kept the sun from setting so that a battle could continue to be fought in daylight, allowing his people to have victory (Joshua 10). After the Israelites, led by Joshua, marched around the city of Jericho seven times, God destroyed the city (Joshua 6). Occurrences such as these tend to support pro-war sentiment felt by modern Christians. Throughout history, Christians tended to side with just war theorists. As Joe Boyle of BBC News states, “The idea [just war theory] later became bound up with Christianity. From St Augustine to Thomas Aquinas, religious figures developed a theory of war as a tool of politics to be used to preserve peace, justice and order.” Recently, however, a few Christians have accepted the pacifist perspective on warfare (Gibson, 1). These Christians read the teachings of Jesus Christ in the gospels and interpret him as a pacifist-- against conflict. When Jesus was arrested by the Romans before being crucified, one of his disciples cut the ear off a Roman soldier with his sword. Jesus responded by healing the man’s ear just by touching it to his head. Christians, as well as those of other faiths, have vied for the fair treatment of noncombatants and POWs (prisoners of war) as an expression of sympathy for thousands of years.
A widely accepted opinion between just war theorists states that, in a traditional war, the aggressor fights on unjust grounds while the defender has the right to fight back and save itself from destruction. Such is certainly true in the case of the War of 1812. Because of various harassments by the British such the impressment of American sailors by the British Navy as well as trade restrictions on the Mississippi River and the Atlantic Ocean, the United States was rightfully obliged to challenge its old mother country to a fight by invading Britain’s northern territory, Canada. Following the declaration of war, Britain immediately invaded the United States, successfully capturing various northern states. Eventually, the Americans were able to push back the British and win the war, which legitimized the U.S. as an independent nation. Despite these results, the war is not celebrated as the Civil and Revolutionary wars are in modern times. Jay Newton-Small of TIME states, “So why the relative lack of enthusiasm about 1812? Maybe because the U.S. is now best friends with the aggressor, Great Britain.” The war damaged the reputation of the British Empire due to its loss and the fact that the war was fought on highly unjust grounds by the British. The Americans were not free of blame—after all, they did try to annex parts of Canada, but the U.S. had just cause to do so. The Treaty of Ghent, ending the war, guaranteed America the rights of an independent, legitimate nation. Both sides believed that their cause for war was justified.
A just war that occurred in more recent history was the second U.S. invasion of Iraq. After receiving intelligence that caused President George W. Bush to believe Saddam Hussein, Iraq’s longtime dictator, had possession of WMDs (weapons of mass destruction, ranging from biological agents to nuclear ICBMs), an attack was ordered on Saddam Hussein’s forces, just as Bush’s father had done thirteen years prior in the Gulf War. Unlike the war in Afghanistan, the Iraq conflict was met with far less public support, especially after it was discovered that Hussein did not possess WMDs. Hussein was later captured and executed on December 29th, 2006 (Alfano 1). Liberals, such as former President Jimmy Carter, accused the Bush Administration of violating international law by attacking Iraq. Carter states, “I became thoroughly familiar with the principles of a just war, and it is clear that a substantially unilateral attack on Iraq does not meet these standards” (Carter 1). The Iraq conflict’s unpopularity in its latter stages, as well as Bush’s weak response to Hurricane Katrina, led to his political downfall. The Iraq war, is, however, just due to the reason the U.S. entered the war: to protect the Iraqi people from their deranged leader. The war was a noble sacrifice made by the U.S. military, a sacrifice for Iraq’s innocents as well as anyone under the threat of terrorism.
Despite the characterization of Bush as a war monger, neither war in the middle east was as questionable or unjust as the minor conflicts the Democratic presidents preceding and succeeding Bush were drawn into by America’s allies in the NATO. Despite President Clinton’s interest in the Kosovo war, it did not pose any threat to the west. However, the west decided to intervene anyway in the form of bombing runs which resulted in the killing of both militants and civilians. Later during Barack Obama’s first term as U.S. President, the Arab Spring caused several uprisings, revolutions, and civil wars in various Arab countries. One war in Libya caused the NATO, led by the U.S. Air Force, to bomb Libyan dictator Muammar Ghaddafi’s forces in the capital. Attacking the Libyan government’s troops violated the U.S. Constitution, as Congress did not authorize a war to be initiated. Former New Jersey judge Andrew P. Napolitano states, “When President Obama announced last April that he was sending the United States military to bomb Libya, he not only violated the United States Constitution, which he has taken an oath to uphold, but he also violated the moral principles of the just war.” The result of the air strikes was a victory for the rebels. The war itself was just, as the Libyan people had good reasons for revolting against their murderous dictator; however, the U.S. involvement in the war was unjust because the war did not threaten the U.S. government, or its people. It was not in the United States’ best interest to join the fight, and thus, its involvement is not justifiable. Both of these conflicts and the U.S. response to them were similar; neither can be justified.
Possibly the most controversial act of justified war ever committed was the atomic bombings of the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by American bombers, which ended World War II after the surrender of the Emperor. The radiation caused by the bombs (the effects of which had been unknown before the bombing) caused the areas around the blasts to be uninhabitable for decades afterward. The bombs were dropped as an alternate ending to the war to avoid the millions of casualties a full-scale invasion would cause. Years before Hitler’s Germany invaded Austria, Japan invaded mainland China in a type of prelude to World War II. During the war, Japanese troops successfully took the Chinese city of Nanking, and proceeded to commit what is often considered the worst massacre and war rape in recent history. (Lanouette 1) Thousands of Chinese civilians were executed at the hands of the Japanese Army. Civilian women of all ages were raped, forced to watch their husband’s execution, and were then killed themselves. The Japanese people praised these acts of war. (Chen 1) An article was published in a Japanese newspaper describing a contest between two Japanese soldiers to see which could kill the most Chinese prisoners. The Japanese, at the time of the war, were as close to inhumanity as a nation can be, even less humane than the Nazi Germans, who, ironically, tried to rescue Chinese civilians in Nanking.
The Japanese population could hardly be called “civilian” however; if the U.S. had attempted a conventional ground invasion of the four mainland Japanese islands (it had prepared to do so by relocated veterans of the European theater to the Pacific before the bombs were developed), it is likely that all able-bodied Japanese would be forced to fight. In that case, the Japanese civilians would become a threat, and have the capability to kill, which, according to LTC Pete Kilner of the U.S. Army, would forfeit their right to not be killed. Kilner states, “Our starting point in justifying wartime killing is the conviction that every person possesses the “right not to be killed. If a person intentionally threatens to violate the right of someone who possesses their right, he forfeits his own right.” Kamikaze fighters, Japanese pilots who believed that death was “honorable”, flew their planes into U.S. ships whenever they ran out of ammunition. The brainwashed, fanatical Japanese civilians often committed suicide whenever U.S. forces took over Pacific islands. An invasion of mainland Japan was estimated, at the time, to cause millions of deaths, compared to the several hundred thousands the bombs would—and that’s not to mention that the bombs would cause zero American casualties. Because the Emperor surrendered after the bombings, the atomic bombs did Japan a favor, and were therefore justified. America would proceed to rewrite Japan’s government and help it become an economic superpower in the years following, and to this day several thousand U.S. military personal are stationed in Japan to defend it.
A similar argument can be made to justify the use of obliteration bombing during the Second World War by both the Axis and the Allies. During World War II, the primary belligerents were in a state of total warfare. Almost all of each nation’s factories, previously building cars and other machinery, were converted by the nations’ governments to build tanks, fighter planes, and other military equipment. Civilians living near the factories were workers at them, building planes that would later be used to bomb their nation’s enemies. If that nation’s enemy were to bomb the factory and/or the living areas of the civilian factory workers, it will keep itself safe from future attacks. Without civilians to build weapons, aggression with those weapons will not occur. Practices as these were used by both the Allies, who were commonly considered “good”, and the Axis, who were commonly considered “evil”, in cities such as London and Dresden. Most would argue that these bombings were unjust, unlike the Allies’ war as a whole which is considered just (Thomas 1). However, any civilian who is involved in the war effort should be seen as a valid target. The truly innocent civilians are either opposed to the war, or are living in a noncombatant nation. A nation should have the right to defend itself by any means, which include killing the makers of weapons that will be used against it.
In contrast, other wars were originally fought for just reasons, but due to the methods of fighting and the war’s resolve, the war became unjust. A clear example for a war becoming unjust is the Vietnam War, on the part of the Americans. Howard Zinn, writing in the December 2001 issue of The Progressive, stated, “I believe that the progressive supporters of the war have confused a "just cause" with a "just war,” but it does not follow that going to war on behalf of that cause, with the inevitable mayhem that follows, is just.” (Zinn 1) America’s reasons for invading Vietnam were, at first, pure: to save it from the wrath of communism. The war only became a problem after too many men had been sent to the war only to die. The decision to implement the draft only made matters worse. While the war is popularly blamed on Lyndon Johnson, it was Dwight Eisenhower who sent the first Americans into the jungle, but at that time, for noble causes.
Other wars, however, cannot be justified. World War I is an example commonly used by pacifists to argue that wars are pointless, and thus, unjust. The Great War erupted after the assassination of Austria-Hungary’s Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Serb rebels, who were unaffiliated with the Allied powers. Tensions between the Central Powers, being Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, and the Allies, being Britain, France, and Russia, had been at an all-time high. Once the war, sparked by a simple assassination, erupted, the equally-armed powers were shortly stuck in a deadlock, resulting in the use of trench warfare. The United States only entered the war after the Zimmerman telegram was intercepted; a message from the German Foreign Minister to Mexico, urging it to attack the American Southwest and regain land lost after the Mexican-American War. President Woodrow Wilson soon sent the small army of the United States to Europe. With the added American support, the Allies were able to break the deadlock and defeat Germany. The empires of Germany, Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans, and Russia fell during the war, the latter due to an internal revolution. Neither the reasons for the war’s start, or the type of weaponry used during the war (such as mustard gas, a chemical weapon), can be justified. World War I fails both the requirement for just cause for war, as well as justice in warfare, outlined as “Jus ad Bellum” and “Jus in bello” respectively in Brian Orend’s entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for war. The Great War is further unjust due to the lack of just cause in the beginning of the war, which is a requirement of just warfare.
In 1919, Germany was forced to sign the Treaty of Versailles, officially ending the war in an unjust way. The treaty stated that Germany accept all guilt for the lives lost during the war, cede territory to bordering nations, and pay war reparations for the damage caused (despite the fact that post-war Germany had little money to offer). The treaty inaccurately blamed Germany for the horrifying conflict. By 1939, Germany had a new leader and was stronger than any other European nation, and was ready to fight World War II. If the Allies had been fair to the Central Powers after the armistice, Europe could have avoided another conflict. The First World War, or “the war to end all wars,” was unjust because of the lack of reasons for it to start, and the treatment of the losers. Michael Brenner of The Huffington Post, summarizing theologian Thomas Aquias’ criteria for just warfare, states, “First, war must occur for a good and just purpose rather than for self-gain (simply because it is "in the nation's interest") or as an exercise of power to affirm dominance. Second, just war must be waged by a properly instituted authority -- a legitimate state. By implication, that principle today covers procedures that that makes purposes and justifications clear and explicit. Third, peace must be a central motive even in the midst of violence, i.e. war is an abomination for mankind that is permissible only as a last resort where diplomacy and other pacific means (dialogue and negotiation) have failed. Fourth, self-defense must be the motive and the conjectured war must not be more destructive than the alternative in terms of spilling blood, above all.” World War I, as a whole, fails three of these four standards.
Pointless war is always unjustifiable, as shown in World War I. There were minute or nonexistent reasons for the empires of Europe to fight each other resulting in the deaths of over ten million people. Even more unjustified is the treaty that ended the war, the treaty that caused Germany to fall into fascism. But unlike the Great War, other wars have valid reasons for the fight to occur. World War II is the best example of a justifiable war; the Allies had to fight back against Germany and Japan in order to save Europe and East Asia. Wars always begin for reasons, but the reasons have to be good for the resulting conflict to be considered “just”.
There can always be good reasons for a fight to occur, whether it is the simple good versus evil fight in as in World War II, or the act of keeping a nation united and ending slavery as in the American Civil War. Just because death occurs does not mean that conflict cannot be justified. Conflict between nations will not be an event that disappears into the history books; war will always occur, and war is inevitable. The world must learn what constitutes a just war, and what causes unjustified wars to occur so that such wars can be avoided. Then all organized conflict between nations will be righteous. Then there will be true peace.

Works Cited
Alfano, Sean. “Saddam Hussein Executed” CBSNews.com. CBS/AP, 29 December, 2006. Web.
18 April 2014. <http://www.cbsnews.com/news/saddam-hussein-executed/>.
Boyle, Joe. "Just war: From Augustine to Obama." bbc.com. BBC News, 24 May 2013. Web. 27
Mar 2014. <http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-22653473>.
Brenner, Michael. ""Just War" or Just War?" Huffingtonpost.com. The Huffington Post, 5 Jun
2012. Web. 28 Mar 2014. <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-brenner/just-war-theory-foreign- policy_b_1570546.html>.
Carter, Jimmy. “Just War – or just a war?” The New York Times. 9 March 2003. Web. 27 March
2014. <http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/opinion/just-war-or-a-just-war.html>.
Chen, David W. “At the Rape of Nanking: A Nazi Who Saved Lives” The New York Times, 12
December 1996. Web. 14 May 2014. <http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/12/world/at-the-rape-of- nanking-a-nazi-who-saved-lives.html>.
Gibson, David. "Is 'Just War' doctrine another victim of the Syrian conflict?” Religion News
Service
. RNS, 11 Sep 2013. Web. 28 Mar 2014.<http://www.religionnews.com/2013/
09/11/analysis-is-just-war-doctrine-another-victim-of-the-syrian-conflict/>.
Kilner, Pete. “A moral justification for killing in war.” Academia.edu. February 1, 2010. Web.
March 28, 2014. <http://www.academia.edu/4947171/A_moral justification for killing in_war>.
Lanouette, William. “Reason and Circumstances for the Hiroshima Bomb”
Thenuclearworld.org. 25 February 2011. Web. 13 May 2014. <http://thenuclearworld.org
/2011/02/25/reason-and-circumstances-of-the-hiroshima-bomb/>.
Napolitano, Andrew. “What is a Just War?” Antiwar.com. 2 February 2012. Web. 27 March
2014. <http://original.antiwar.com/andrew-pnapolitano/2012/02/01/what-is-a-just-war/>.
Newton-Small, Jay. “1812: The War No One Wants to Commemorate” Time.com. Ti Magazine, 24 April 2014. Web. 14 May 2014. <http://time.com/76284/1812-war- commemorate-washington/>.
Orend, Brian. “War” Stanford University. 28 July 2005. Web. 27 March 2014.
<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/>.
Thomas, Shannon. "What is 'Just War' today?" Americancatholic.org. May 2004. Web. 27
March, 2014. <http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0504.asp>.
Zinn, Howard. “A Just Cause, not a Just War” Commondreams.org. December 2001. Web. 8
May 2014. http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1109-01.htm.
 
This is my area as I am in the second year of a Politics and International Relations degree.
Questions and comments.

Referencing? It is meant to go (Name, Date, Page.)

You seem to make the same argument as to why America was right to go to Iraq (protecting the civilians) and why America shouldn't have gone to Lybia (why care about the civilians?) Also, you are basing a lot of your argument on what is good for America. As in you state America bombing Libya was unjust because Libya posed no threat to the US or Vietnam was unjust purely due to American lives lost. (It is the only reason you put forward.) That doesn't automatically make it just. That is just realism. You even go on to quote a website which quotes Aquinas stating that war for a countries own gain isn't just at all and thus effectively nullifying your entire essay. It works both ways as well. Staying out of a conflict purely because it is your countries interest when the result is much worse for others can be attacked on similar principles.

Iraq was just partly because it protected the people? Explain this to the people worried about the new groups that have formed like ISIS. Even if it was just to start the fact everyone just left and gave no support after made the country worse than it started. That is hardly just. A stable but evil dictator is better than anarchy. The nuclear weapons belief makes a just cause but not a just war.


Kamikazes were specific task groups. Not whenever they ran out of ammo.
The idea of an honourable death wasn't brainwashing it was cultural dating back to at least the 1700's. You need a reference on the brainwashed civilians bit. Hell I have seen historians claim the Nazi propaganda had little effect so surely a similar situation could be said of Japan.

WW1 could be argued as just as support of ones allies and upholding agreements. The Serbs were allies of Russia who were allies of Britain and France. The whole Concert of Europe stuff meant everyone linked together.


Out of interest. What grade did you get for it?
 
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Referencing? It is meant to go (Name, Date, Page.)

I was using MLA format.

Out of interest. What grade did you get for it?

95- from a liberal professor, no less. The points I lost were mainly due to formatting errors in citations.


I can't post my well-written essay under that horrendous title and OP

You seem to make the same argument as to why America was right to go to Iraq (protecting the civilians) and why America shouldn't have gone to Lybia (why care about the civilians?)

Libya and Iraq were different because Saddam Hussein posed an international threat- while he didn't actually have WMD's, everyone believed he did, so invading Iraq was justifiable. Libya, on the other hand, was a conflict contained in one place. Ghaddafi wasn't a threat to the U.S. or Europe, so he should have been left alone.
 
Libya and Iraq were different because Saddam Hussein posed an international threat- while he didn't actually have WMD's, everyone believed he did, so invading Iraq was justifiable. Libya, on the other hand, was a conflict contained in one place. Ghaddafi wasn't a threat to the U.S. or Europe, so he should have been left alone.

If your reasoning is that Iraq was just because Hussein posed an international threat, then this part makes no sense:

The Iraq war, is, however, just due to the reason the U.S. entered the war: to protect the Iraqi people from their deranged leader. The war was a noble sacrifice made by the U.S. military, a sacrifice for Iraq’s innocents as well as anyone under the threat of terrorism.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Besides, I don't see anywhere in there that you address what it actually means to justify war. Why are some reasons "just", and others "unjust"? It's fairly obvious that a pacifist and a career soldier are going to have different opinions on what is a just conflict, so you really need to define in objective terms what makes a war just.

Maybe this is something that's implicitly understood by you and your professor because you've already covered it in class, but it's not understood by random readers on the internet.
 
Libya and Iraq were different because Saddam Hussein posed an international threat- while he didn't actually have WMD's, everyone believed he did, so invading Iraq was justifiable. Libya, on the other hand, was a conflict contained in one place. Ghaddafi wasn't a threat to the U.S. or Europe, so he should have been left alone.

Citation very much needed. Former UK Foreign Minister Robin Cook's resignation speech, for example, would seem to be a fairly strong indication that your claim of universal agreement is tenuous. The lack of UN support for the invasion is also a fairly glaring contradiction. Don't read this as me saying you're definitively wrong, but rather as a strong encouragement to do some homework before standing behind a claim like that.

If you take away that leg of your argument, you're left with the likely reality that we got involved in both situations for more or less the same reasons. And that being the case, I can't help but read you this way:

Libya and Iraq were different because George Bush was a Republican, but Barack Obama is a godless liberal commie.
 
I'll read it after class. Word of advice: Try to work on the formatting here on the forum. I understand that copying and pasting to forums or whatever else ruins the original formatting but more separation between paragraphs would be nice.
 
Citation very much needed. Former UK Foreign Minister Robin Cook's resignation speech, for example, would seem to be a fairly strong indication that your claim of universal agreement is tenuous. The lack of UN support for the invasion is also a fairly glaring contradiction. Don't read this as me saying you're definitively wrong, but rather as a strong encouragement to do some homework before standing behind a claim like that.

If you take away that leg of your argument, you're left with the likely reality that we got involved in both situations for more or less the same reasons. And that being the case, I can't help but read you this way:
That as well. I missed it being as I wrote my critique at 5am. In fact there were some UN reports if my memory serves that said that he didn't have anything.
On the second bit I thought that too.
 
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If your reasoning is that Iraq was just because Hussein posed an international threat, then this part makes no sense:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I clearly made the point earlier in the paragraph that Iraq was invaded to stop Hussein from using WMD's.

That as well. I missed it being as I wrote my critique at 5am. In fact there were some UN reports if my memory serves that said that he didn't have anything.
On the second bit I thought that too.

Citation very much needed. Former UK Foreign Minister Robin Cook's resignation speech, for example, would seem to be a fairly strong indication that your claim of universal agreement is tenuous. The lack of UN support for the invasion is also a fairly glaring contradiction. Don't read this as me saying you're definitively wrong, but rather as a strong encouragement to do some homework before standing behind a claim like that.

"Everyone" meaning the American government; the Pentagon, Congress, Bush and the cabinet. It wouldn't have made any sense for Bush to take actions against the advice of his own aides.

If you take away that leg of your argument, you're left with the likely reality that we got involved in both situations for more or less the same reasons. And that being the case, I can't help but read you this way:

That's because you're probably a Democrat yourself. Certainly not a Republican.

I'll read it after class. Word of advice: Try to work on the formatting here on the forum. I understand that copying and pasting to forums or whatever else ruins the original formatting but more separation between paragraphs would be nice.

I tried but couldn't get the paragraphs to indent for some reason.
 
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"Everyone" meaning the American government; the Pentagon, Congress, Bush and the cabinet. It wouldn't have made any sense for Bush to take actions against the advice of his own aides.

So by "everyone," you meant only America? Okay, let's revisit this:

Libya and Iraq were different because Saddam Hussein posed an international threat- while he didn't actually have WMD's, everyone believed he did, so invading Iraq was justifiable. Libya, on the other hand, was a conflict contained in one place. Ghaddafi wasn't a threat to the U.S. or Europe, so he should have been left alone.

Come on, man, make up your mind. Take a position and stick with it.

That's because you're probably a Democrat yourself. Certainly not a Republican.

Irrelevant ad hominem.
 
I clearly made the point earlier in the paragraph that Iraq was invaded to stop Hussein from using WMD's.

You certainly did. So which is it? WMDs or protection?

After receiving intelligence that caused President George W. Bush to believe Saddam Hussein, Iraq’s longtime dictator, had possession of WMDs (weapons of mass destruction, ranging from biological agents to nuclear ICBMs), an attack was ordered on Saddam Hussein’s forces, just as Bush’s father had done thirteen years prior in the Gulf War.

Summary: The attack on Iraq was instigated because Hussain was believed to have WMDs.

The Iraq war, is, however, just due to the reason the U.S. entered the war: to protect the Iraqi people from their deranged leader.

Summary: The attack on Iraq was instigated to protect the Iraqis from Hussein.

It's hard to evaluate whether your argument for the Iraq war being just is valid when you're presenting two different reasons for America entering the war in the first place. And it seems that your idea of a "just" war (which you still haven't elaborated on) depends strongly on the reason the war was initiated.
 
Come on, man, make up your mind. Take a position and stick with it.

You certainly did. So which is it? WMDs or protection?

It's hard to evaluate whether your argument for the Iraq war being just is valid when you're presenting two different reasons for America entering the war in the first place.

Both reasons. Stop trying to split hairs. The war's initiation was just because the U.S. believed it was stopping an international threat. The course of the war remained just after the U.S. realized there were no WMD's because it was protecting the Iraqi people. Take a look at General Mattis' letter above. Obama had no real reason to drop bombs in Libya, only to support a rebellion. The Iraq invasion was just because it was originally done to stop a threat, and then after the threat was over it made sense to stay in Iraq and protect its people.
 
Both reasons. Stop trying to split hairs. The war's initiation was just because the U.S. believed it was stopping an international threat. The course of the war remained just after the U.S. realized there were no WMD's because it was protecting the Iraqi people. Take a look at General Mattis' letter above.

Hence my comment about having your cake and eating it too. You're just throwing reasons up to see what sticks, rather than building an argument.


Anyway, that aside, what exactly is a "just" war? How is it defined?

Let's say for the sake of argument that I accept that both of those things are the reasons America entered the war on Iraq. How does one then use those to evaluate whether a war is just or unjust?
 
That letter was the official letter they gave our command to read to us. I'm not about to talk politics with you people just thought it would be interesting to add to the thread.
 
It's been a long time since there was a war that successfully eliminated another group of people. Probably will be a long time before one happens again (if at all) since there is all of the "connectedness" felt by many to oppose war and stop attacking others for being different.
 
Which America then failed to do due to lack of commitment and groups like ISIS formed instead.

I agree with that- the war effort in both Iraq and Afghanistan was too weak to be effective. That being said, it doesn't make the war injust.

Anyway, that aside, what exactly is a "just" war? How is it defined?

I found this, which I mostly agree with.

Principles of the Just War
  • A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.
  • A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.
  • A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.
  • A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
  • The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.
  • The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.
  • The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.
 
Stop trying to split hairs.

Split hairs? Let's revisit. You started with this. Extra emphasis on the "everyone believed he did" bit:

Libya and Iraq were different because Saddam Hussein posed an international threat- while he didn't actually have WMD's, everyone believed he did, so invading Iraq was justifiable. Libya, on the other hand, was a conflict contained in one place. Ghaddafi wasn't a threat to the U.S. or Europe, so he should have been left alone.

I suggested that there were several reasons to doubt the veracity of that claim. So you switched lanes, and suggested that only the US saw him as a threat:

"Everyone" meaning the American government; the Pentagon, Congress, Bush and the cabinet. It wouldn't have made any sense for Bush to take actions against the advice of his own aides.

The war's initiation was just because the U.S. believed it was stopping an international threat.

I don't think it's "splitting hairs" to point out the huge self-contradiction you performed there. Especially when the first bit there was such a central tenet to your claim that Iraq was justified.

If you are honestly interested in having a debate about this, as you claimed in the OP, then either present some supporting evidence for your original claim, or retract the claim. That's how these things work.

That letter was the official letter they gave our command to read to us. I'm not about to talk politics with you people just thought it would be interesting to add to the thread.

:odd:
 
Every single point you just stated from whatever source you got it from could be disputed because almost all of it is dependent on a 3rd party's definition that one of the sides in the given war is "just".
 
EDIT - Please delete. My page hadn't yet refreshed and showed me that he had, in fact, supplied a definition. Mea culpa.
 
I wasn't aware that war could ever be just anyways. Unless viewing it from the majority perspective. In that case, one could make an argument that it is just to be a suicide bomber and kill people that are different than you.
 
Which America then failed to do due to lack of commitment and groups like ISIS formed instead.

What you are talking about are Muslim Extremist groups that are impossible to eradicate. We had a big problem with insurgency starting in 2004 after Saddam's Fedayeen Saddam and Republican Guard, which were supposed to be the most badass force in all of Iraq, pretty much just gave up and didn't want to fight us. We went into Baghdad with little resistance. Those people then regrouped, formed small pockets of resistance. After mission accomplished was declared by President Bush, our job there was more or less peacekeeping, insurgent eradication and Counter Terrorism. We were basically Iraq's police and had to enforce Iraq's own laws. We found massive weapons stockpiles in regular houses where insurgents would force the good people of the towns into keeping weapons for them either by violence or just intimidation. By Iraqi Law, each household is allowed 1 fully automatic weapon per household. Sometimes we would find hundreds of AK47s, RPGs, explosives etc in one house owned by a family. We gathered this intelligence through similar raids and even monetary rewards for people with information of who the bad guys were and where they were stockpiling weapons and harboring insurgents. This only worked for a short period of time before they became more secretive and covered a more broad area. With the people of the U.S. and Worldwide losing faith in the War and popular opinion changing, we pulled many troops from Iraq and now these militant groups were there to regain control. In a sense, we were damned if we do and damned if we don't. The world will always say that the U.S. didn't do enough but also feel we did too much. Groups like ISIS were bound to happen and as soon as we eradicate them, one will take it's place. The only way to stop it is to kill every Muslim on the face of the Earth and that would be Genocide. This will never end.
 
*****

I found this, which I mostly agree with.

Principles of the Just War
  • A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.
  • A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.
  • The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.

So using the above definition, have you changed your mind and now come to the conclusion that the IRAQ war was un-just?

1) There was a no-fly zone in place over IRAQ, which was doing a reasonable job of limiting Saddam Hussein's options, and therefore the point of "last resort" hadn't been reached.

2) What wrong had the United States suffered that needed to be "redressed" with an invasion?

3) After eleven years of war has peace been established in IRAQ?

It seems to me that the IRAQ war violated the above tenants of a "just war"

Respectfully,
GTsail
 
I don't think it's "splitting hairs" to point out the huge self-contradiction you performed there. Especially when the first bit there was such a central tenet to your claim that Iraq was justified.

There's no contradiction. I never said the UN, the NATO or the world believed it was a threat, I used the vague term "everyone" which I later clarified to be Americans. The Americans believed Hussein to be an international threat. I never said it was an international belief that he had WMD's and should be stopped.

1) There was a no-fly zone in place over IRAQ, which was doing a reasonable job of limiting Saddam Hussein's options, and therefore the point of "last resort" hadn't been reached.

2) What wrong had the United States suffered that needed to be "redressed" with an invasion?

3) After eleven years of war has peace been established in IRAQ?

1. A no-fly zone won't stop a chemical attack from the ground.
2. The wrong was against the Iraqi people, who could not defend themselves.
3. Peace WAS the goal, and it was achieved in the sense conditions were better in Iraq during the U.S. occupation. Just because bloodshed resumed after the troop pullout doesn't mean the objective wasn't peace. It means Obama isn't a very good tactician.
 

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