micromanagement!!! what the?

[throttlehappy]

while im not up on all the latest info, i read recently that gt hd will have micromanagement. whos idea was this? in my mind its the worst decision the developers could of made! they really need there head read if they think people will want to pay more money on top of the game price for cars and tracks
i cant beleive this ****! looks like this could be the end of the road for the gt series, especially if they plan on bringing this to gt5 👎

this really makes me think of changing to the dark side, especially since the oz realease for the ps3 has been pushed back
forza 2 is out in november you know!

get your act together pd

 

[Gen.]

Yes, we know it sucks.

GT:HD is a beta thing for GT5, so PD can do whatever the hell they want with it to get their act together for GT5.

 

[Exenter]

It is confirmed that GT5 will be a full game, no need to buy cars and tracks.

 

[MasterGT]

I haven't checked all of the recent news here today, but have you got a source for that information?

 

[Dave A]

That's not officialy, Kaz mentioned in an interview that they will need a packaged prodct for GT5 but that was it. What he meant by that is open to debate, a packaged product could be 100 cars on disk and 900 downloable, or vice versa we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Wolfe]

I think it would be pretty hard to drive while micromanaging your fuel-air mixture, alternator output, radio equalizer settings, cooling fan, differential, anti-lock brakes, and traction/stability control at the same time...maybe that's why Maxim hasn't made a "SimCar" yet.

If you wanted to complain about the "microtransactions" system, though, that could have easily been done in the main GTHD thread, especially considering that this seems more like a rant than an attempt to start a discussion.

 

[peter_89]

Hi guys...
I'm a frequent at a different Gran Turismo forum, but having been doing research on the whole micromanagement idea I stepped across this thread. It's one of those "go-through-entire-registration-process-just-to-post-one-reply" moments...
Don't get your hopes up that they will have the game using the same system the last four have. This concerns economics a bit. Technology firms have had this thing called "software subscription" under their radar for a few years now. It's going to become a huge trend in the tech markets to see companies using systems requiring you to essentially pay a subscription just like you would for a magazine to continue to use their software. It naturally only has a benifit for the suppliers, however, as their former one-time-pay "products" now become "services." Everything on your computer is going to use this within the next few years and I promise you, it is the big thing in the tech market these days. No matter what you do it is going to become a trend because of its huge benifits for software companies because they are now able to overcome an economic hurdle as old as time itself. It means that they are able to squeeze unlimited amounts of money out of you. You want to boycott it? Fine, but you won't be able to get any software without it eventually. The internet makes all of this possible because they will be able to disable the software through it if you don't pay the subscription. This whole "micromanagement" thing is just the manifestation of this on the Playstation. Eventually it will hit all other games and all other consoles. Sure, they may delay it for this release, but they will eventually implement it and they know that they can get you hooked on their products anyway because of their irresistable additions to the game. The benifits for the tech sector are too big for them not to implement it.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

I think it would be pretty hard to drive while micromanaging your fuel-air mixture, alternator output, radio equalizer settings, cooling fan, differential, anti-lock brakes, and traction/stability control at the same time...

Don't forget the mirror adjustment and lumbar support levels

 

[DuckRacer]

Eventually it will hit all other games and all other consoles. Sure, they may delay it for this release, but they will eventually implement it and they know that they can get you hooked on their products anyway because of their irresistable additions to the game. The benifits for the tech sector are too big for them not to implement it.

Could you elaborate of what form this "subscribtion" would be? Do you think it'd be something like you pay $50 up front and then you pay $4 a month after that? Or would it be like you don't pay anything up front and you pay $5 a month. If it's the former...

I doubt it would be implemented in everything. GT could possibly get away from it since it's pretty much one of the best racing series, if not one of the best series from any genre, and a large portion of it's addicted fanbase are 20-something Gen-Xers with tons of money to blow on stuff. But if you look at other racing games, like Toca or Forza, people would be dissuaded buying a came because of a subscription, and if people don't want to use a subscribtion, the people who make the games won't get nearly as much money. If it's the latter...

I think it would be an awesome thing, because if you finish a game in a few week, you're out only $5. However, I don't see publishers and developers getting much money out of this, and so they cannot produce more games because of a lack of money.

I just don't see this happening within the next decade.

And besides, what about the people without online? They'd get conned out of games.

 

[peter_89]

And besides, what about the people without online? They'd get conned out of games.

Not at all. What you do as a marketer, is if the subscription service is based entirely on internet access is you make it impossible to operate the machine without it. Again, everything is going to be based on the internet eventually because it is easier even for the computer users -- Windows Live is a good example of this occuring. There are superb anti-viral services out (Trend Micro and others) that scan your computer directly from the web connection -- no actual local program to download. The great thing about them is there's no manual updating since the web site updates itself with the latest security patches. Because of this huge jump in convenience, virtually all programs could be run on a distant server instead of on your own computer within the next fifteen years. If you want to stay with the latest technology -- which would be based on this -- then you would need an internet connection. This is how they lock you into their subscriptions.
I am a little frightened by this development -- you might not mind paying for cars in a video game, but how does paying a monthly subscription just to use your computer sound?

 

[harrytuttle]

First of all, the title should have read "micropayments", not micromanagement. I'm so pedantic....

I am a little frightened by this development -- you might not mind paying for cars in a video game, but how does paying a monthly subscription just to use your computer sound?

How do you think you're watching TV these days? Why do you think the broadcasters aren't exactly fighting against being required to switch over to digital broadcasting? It makes it that much easier to make you pay for whatever services they deem necessary. The movie studios don't want you owning DVD's, either. They want everything on a pay-per-use plan. No more loaning discs to a friend, no possibility of piracy(*).

However I think software subscription will fail -- horrifically. Monthly subscriptions work for online games where the service is essentially a live event, much like cable & DSS TV. People understand that you're "renting" time on someone else's computer. But when they try to make something that you're used to owning into something that can only you rent, that's like making the only way to drive a car is renting one.

By the way, we had this type of computer operation before. It was called a "mainframe". Granted, it was mostly during an age when computers ran at a handful of megahertz, not a large number of gigahertz, but the size of this network is much greater and the number of users is immensely more numerous. Could you imagine the load put on the network when the East coast financial sector starts up? It's actually noticeable now, and that's just for a few NASDAQ applications and some email. The

It may actually put Microsoft out of business. They're developing heavily for this. They're entire dominance was based on owning the desktop platform, and they're actually undermining their own success. Without any real benefit from having Microsoft applications on a Microsoft OS, what's the incentive to stay loyal, especially since their precious Office formats are pretty much open to the public?

That, and the other more obvious problem of bandwidth: the number of homes with internet access in the US (let alone the rest of the world) is far from being in the majority. At best, such an idea is 10 years away from being even remotely feasible.



(*) Or so they think. There will always be piracy. Period. And they're forgetting that the home video market is the one thing that got them where they are: being able to produce massive amounts of garbage movies that people will inevitably buy or rent anyway.

 

[throttlehappy]

they've got there heads up there ar*es if they think this system is going to work. the playstation was already way behind the 360, then they push the release back over here and in europe. not a good move! people dont have alot of patience, i know of heaps of people that have cancelled there ps3 preorder and gone the 360. my main reason for holding out was gt5 but after reading this micropayment crud im getting to the stage where they can stick it you know where, sony and pd

 

[Jay]

they've got there heads up there ar*es if they think this system is going to work. the playstation was already way behind the 360, then they push the release back over here and in europe. not a good move! people dont have alot of patience, i know of heaps of people that have cancelled there ps3 preorder and gone the 360. my main reason for holding out was gt5 but after reading this micropayment crud im getting to the stage where they can stick it you know where, sony and pd

Microsoft did the same to us Aussies when it came to delays, we had to wait till late March 2006 when the US got it late 2005, but yet they still were saying the 360 was a world released console, like usual Australian market means almost nothing to them.

Now even Nintendo are saying Australia might have supply difficulty's with the Wii.

 

[barryl85]

I'd wait till the game comes out before i reserve judgement, i agree its a bit ridiculous to pay for things after the game is made but for the 360 PGR3 is the same so is Test Drive and probably other games - you can play them and enjoy them without buying any additional features but its great for people who can afford them! And has anyone thought for a second about the Capacity of the disk - as these additional features will be on your own personal HD - so hardly an end to the amount of new items for the game!

I was the 1st one to say the 360 would be crap as i have always been a PS fanboy - i now own one and love it!

Oh and Forza 2 in November??? Doubt it - I heard its March 07

 

[RedOak]

they've got there heads up there ar*es if they think this system is going to work. the playstation was already way behind the 360, then they push the release back over here and in europe. not a good move! people dont have alot of patience, i know of heaps of people that have cancelled there ps3 preorder and gone the 360. my main reason for holding out was gt5 but after reading this micropayment crud im getting to the stage where they can stick it you know where, sony and pd

I think the Ipod way worked pretty well... there's a ****load of people who purchase their favorite songs via Itunes and now they can get their favorite videos too...

I think this is mostly an issue to all the players who feel the need to collect all 700+ cars in the game... i for one, have about 20. To me this system is quite interesting because it will allow for better control over player's cars, especially online. Besides, you can really only race with one car at a time.

 

[Flerbizky]

Hi guys...
I'm a frequent at a different Gran Turismo forum, but having been doing research on the whole micromanagement idea I stepped across this thread. It's one of those "go-through-entire-registration-process-just-to-post-one-reply" moments...
Don't get your hopes up that they will have the game using the same system the last four have. This concerns economics a bit. Technology firms have had this thing called "software subscription" under their radar for a few years now. It's going to become a huge trend in the tech markets to see companies using systems requiring you to essentially pay a subscription just like you would for a magazine to continue to use their software. It naturally only has a benifit for the suppliers, however, as their former one-time-pay "products" now become "services." Everything on your computer is going to use this within the next few years and I promise you, it is the big thing in the tech market these days. No matter what you do it is going to become a trend because of its huge benifits for software companies because they are now able to overcome an economic hurdle as old as time itself. It means that they are able to squeeze unlimited amounts of money out of you. You want to boycott it? Fine, but you won't be able to get any software without it eventually. The internet makes all of this possible because they will be able to disable the software through it if you don't pay the subscription. This whole "micromanagement" thing is just the manifestation of this on the Playstation. Eventually it will hit all other games and all other consoles. Sure, they may delay it for this release, but they will eventually implement it and they know that they can get you hooked on their products anyway because of their irresistable additions to the game. The benifits for the tech sector are too big for them not to implement it.

Can you say Linux ?........ That takes away 50% of all users of "rented" software... It'll never work unless the price becomes silly low...

 

[Der Alta]

Why do you think the broadcasters aren't exactly fighting against being required to switch over to digital broadcasting? It makes it that much easier to make you pay for whatever services they deem necessary. The movie studios don't want you owning DVD's, either. They want everything on a pay-per-use plan. No more loaning discs to a friend, no possibility of piracy(*).

This has been tried before. Lets spin back a few years to the advent of DVD players. There was another type of player introduced at the same time called DIVX and was only available at Circuit City and Good Guys. Here's a quick read. There is an armada of people out there that don't want people to know what they're doing in their home.

However I think software subscription will fail -- horrifically. Monthly subscriptions work for online games where the service is essentially a live event, much like cable & DSS TV. People understand that you're "renting" time on someone else's computer. But when they try to make something that you're used to owning into something that can only you rent, that's like making the only way to drive a car is renting one.

My sentiments exactly. I own GT4, and can pop it in for a few minutes a month, or a few hours a day. It'll sit on the shelf for two months, and then I'll slaughter it for a week. I don't feel the need to pay a subscription for something I should own.

It may actually put Microsoft out of business. They're developing heavily for this. They're entire dominance was based on owning the desktop platform, and they're actually undermining their own success. Without any real benefit from having Microsoft applications on a Microsoft OS, what's the incentive to stay loyal, especially since their precious Office formats are pretty much open to the public?

That, and the other more obvious problem of bandwidth: the number of homes with internet access in the US (let alone the rest of the world) is far from being in the majority. At best, such an idea is 10 years away from being even remotely feasible.

I think that MS is banking on people having a high speed bandwidth connection. It'd be ridiculous to even consider Dial-up. In fact, we'll likely see the death of AOL sooner than we'll see on-line subscription software.

(*) Or so they think. There will always be piracy. Period. And they're forgetting that the home video market is the one thing that got them where they are: being able to produce massive amounts of garbage movies that people will inevitably buy or rent anyway.

What happens the first time there is a DDOS on the MS Office server? and the eastern seaboard can't begin its work day until Redmount reboots their server? Is it a justifiable expense knowing that an outage is going to put your entire workforce on idle for two hours?

Subscription software is the wave of the future, but it still needs to be accepted by the Masses. And Im not particularly looking forward to it.

Now, to check this back to GT:HD. If I have to pay to download new cars, I'll pass. I'll wait until GT5 comes out. If GT5 is setup the same way, I'll restart GT4 and replay it. I don't feel that PD needs to know when I play it, how long and with what cars. If they want that info, send me a prelim copy and I'll give them loads of feedback. My general feeling is that they need only to know that I bought it on the day it came out and am happy with it.

Honestly after the issues with GT4 as a game, they're in an uphill battle already.

Can you say Linux ?

Yes, I certainly can.

 

[IMADreamer]

This is sort of off topic but yet on. I think everyone that is complaining and saying it's the end of GT if they go to this system is wrong. 95% of the people here are going to buy this game, and most of them will in some way download new content whether it be a car or track. Imagine if they didn't put your beloved Skyline or Supra on the core disc. OH NO!! Half the young people would rush out and download them. The same goes for the supercars, if they aren't on the disc people will go download them. If the cars are only .50$ each then people are going to say, oh well I have that in my pocket I will just save that and then I can buy a car. Sooner or later you have a hundred bucks worth of cars and you crap yourself, but that's beside the point.

This is going to prove successful to PD because of what I just said. Sure people may bitch and moan the whole time but they are still going buy the game and probably extra content.

 

[Raitziger]

i totally agree to IMADreamer. Some people just have this "gotta get em all" inside of them and that is pissing them off.
And why should sony have to give us something free?(if modelling a new car takes a month) .
In pc world people can more easily create own content, and should be in SONY&#180;s intrests also.Players do work of creating content and sony&#180;s products get more popular.(example: Half-life <-> counter-strike)

 

[JTSnooks]

My whole take on the deal is that PD is expecting GT:HD to sell for two reasons.

1) Online play, which people have been crying for for years. It's already been said that every GT4 car will come with the game, all you have to do is earn them. If you're too lazy to earn them, you can pay for them.

2) As a demo and testbed of GT5 graphics, if not physics. They'll package 30 or so high-definition cars and apparently 2 extremely detailed tracks in the game for people to play around with for fun when they're not playing GT:HD Classic online with their friends. Then, if people want to they will be able to download updated cars/tracks for the game if they get bored of online or the cars they already have, and can't wait for GT5 to come out, which will be prepackaged with tons of cars and tracks.

So, if you want to play GT online, the game is almost worth it already (although many would argue that they should've had it for GT4 and don't want to pay again for it), plus you get the added bonus of getting a nice, playable demo of GT5. If you really like the demo, they'll release updates that you can buy for it to expand it as big as you want to hold you over until GT5 comes out.

Up to this point I see nothing sinister about their plans, and I have no problem with the route they're taking. I'll likely buy a PS3 and GT:HD just for the demo aspect, and will probably buy a few cars and definitely some tracks to play around with. Overpriced? Maybe, but if you think so, don't buy it. Just wait for GT5. Now if GT5 comes with the same amount of cars/tracks as GT:HD Premium (which makes no sense, because then you'd have no reason to buy GT5 if you already have GT:HD), then I'll be pissed. But until that point (likely 2 years away at least), I'll reserve judgement.

 

[harrytuttle]

This has been tried before. Lets spin back a few years to the advent of DVD players. There was another type of player introduced at the same time called DIVX and was only available at Circuit City and Good Guys.

I remember DiVX quite well, unfortunately. It, among many other proposed ideas, failed miserably (more recently, see Sony's CD rootkit). But that's not going to stop the studios from trying. The recent influx of new video-on-demand and web-based video projects have practically given the studios the easy way out. It's so much easier to eliminate the "analog loophole" when the entire chain is digital. Of course, piracy will still find a way to store copies, but then we have "ony pirates will have copies", not legitimate consumers.

I don't feel the need to pay a subscription for something I should own.

That is the one saving grace we have. Americans may be lame when it comes to civil liberties, but they know what they want when it comes to entertainment.

I think that MS is banking on people having a high speed bandwidth connection. It'd be ridiculous to even consider Dial-up. In fact, we'll likely see the death of AOL sooner than we'll see on-line subscription software.
What happens the first time there is a DDOS on the MS Office server? and the eastern seaboard can't begin its work day until Redmount reboots their server? Is it a justifiable expense knowing that an outage is going to put your entire workforce on idle for two hours?

I actually think that web-based applications are good for a large company with multiple locations, especially with the collaboration features it facilitates. For home users, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Home internet service (if it exists) is hardly as reliable as business lines. I can't wait until some kid can't finish his senior project because his ISP had a fit that day.

Now, to check this back to GT:HD.

Oh, right. I forgot.

 

[SPEED-RACER]

So all the GT loyalist around the world without an internet line just get left behind, what a pity, were is PD's loyalty to its fanbase. I know a few guys that would boycot sony just because of this. GTHD is making PD seem money hungry, but the truth is they're really just killing their fanbase, by the time GT5 comes out more than half their GT loyalist are just going to be playing the next best of the shelf racer. But this is just my opinion.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yes, but we don't know what's going to happen. Sony and Polyphony are aware of all the net chatter, and GT producer Kazunori Yamauchi said in an interview a couple of weeks ago that whatever form GT HD releases as, hasn't been decided. They're going to be fussing with the game for a few more months at least, so it may have everything included for all I know, with additional content downloaded in Classic and Premium Edition later for those who want to keep adding stuff to it.

So what form GT HD will be at launch, not even Kaz knows right now.

 

[kusanagiblade]

Hey look on the bright sight, they might reduce the price of the game.