Nürburgring: GT4 vs EPR vs Real

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Wolfe

Physics Critic
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Hey everyone, I recently returned from an incredible trip to Germany, and before you ask, I lapped the Nürburgring not once, but twice! :crazy:

Although there is no game that I know of that allows you to drive a rental BMW 525i Touring, ;) I would like to share with you my impression of the track itself, and how GT4 and Enthusia's 'rings compare (Forza's 'ring is a joke, as well as PGR2's).

First of all I think I should mention that the museum near the Südscheife (modern, F1 course) contains an entire room devoted to Gran Turismo 4, with maybe 30 TVs and PS2's installed in the walls, and a 3-screen, DFP-equipped, full-motion simulator version in the center (Sony/PD really enjoy promoting their product :dopey: ). The simulator is free, and spectators can watch your performance on a separate black-and-white TV from the same cameras that are used in replays on the home version. I did the simulator only a couple of hours before I did my laps, so a comparison was easy to make.

Things GT4 does better than Enthusia:
The curbs that are prominent on many corners are visually and physically more correct, but not perfect. The natural (hills/trees) scenery along the uphill section between Adenau and the Karussell is more correct. My first lap was sunny, and yes, German grass is that bright of a green in the sun :rolleyes: . GT4 features the graffiti on the track that we're all familiar with. The buildings and signs littered along the sides of the course are a little more detailed. Overall, GT4's Nürburgring looks much more realistic than Enthusia and any other racing-game representation I've seen, especially the scenery surrounding the course.

Things Enthusia does better than GT4:
While GT4's 'ring looks more realistic, especially beyond the guardrails, Enthusia's ring is more realistic; between the guardrails. The track width is better than in GT4 (GT4's width is too narrow). The sizes/lengths/durations/angles of the corners are better (GT4's are too small/short, and some are too wide). The cambers of some of the turns are better (and camber actually means something in Enthusia's physics; GT4 seems to ignore the benefits of a banked turn, making the Karussell more difficult than it really is). Overall, GT4's version of the course is too small - like it shrunk in the laundry - while Enthusia's is more accurate; this is proven by comparing laptimes with real-life laptimes. The locations and sizes of trees are better in some places. GT4 greatly exaggerates its jumps; IIRC, pretty much any car can get air in GT4, but I don't think the 525i could, even if I wasn't held back by my dad, who was reluctantly riding shotgun (him: :nervous: me: :dopey: ).

Things both games need to improve on:
Corner curbs are too small. Some corners, particularily the ones at the beginning, have much more camber as they approach the curb. GT4's 'ring is too bumpy. Enthusia's 'ring is too smooth. Both games feature non-existent run-off space, especially at Metzgesfeld. The Karussell seemed like it tilted a lot more (maybe just felt like it? :D ). Neither game features the public roads that run along various parts of the track, especially the one just beyond the opening in the guardrail on the left side of the sharp right-hander in the Pflanzgarten (nit-picky, huh? :) ). Both games start at what I believe is a non-existent starting point (the tourist entrance is where PGR2 and Forza start, and real-life races dip into the F1 course a little bit, as well as start from there).

Overall, I was very impressed with how accurate both Enthusia and GT4 turned out to be, and even more impressed with how staggeringly grandiose and daunting the real 'ring is. I'm glad PGR2 or Forze weren't my only sources of practice, or I'd probably be working my #@$ off to pay for a wrecked rental BMW! :D

Oh, and my laptime was just over 12 minutes. It had rained, but...yeah, I know. :yuck: :(
 
Wow. Nice post, very interesting. Next time I drive the Nurb I'll feel thouroughly disappointed with it's length, but maybe they'll sort it out for GT5.
 
Again I would agree with most of what you have said (I also have driven the 'ring a number of times), I would say that on balance I would give the nod towards GT4 as the most realistic game version of the 'ring at the moment.

Enthusia's version is just far, far to smooth, I would also disagree that the GT4 version is too bumpy (but some of the jumps are overdone). The bumpyness of any road surface will alway increase with speed, try driving the 'ring in GT4 at a lower speed and a lot of the bumps smooth out, also the set-up of the car you are driving will have a major impact on how they feel.

Evo magazine in the UK ran a 'ring special in the current issue and the 'bumpyness of the track was discussed in comparison to GT4, have a look at this link.

Damn good write-up however. 👍

Regards

Scaff
 
Good, detialed and interesting write up man! Nice Job and I'm happy you enjoyed it and had a great time!

Wish we could get our hands on the Evo article as well.....!Thanks for the heads-up Scaff!
 
Great write-up Wolfe2x7 👍 👍 I've never even considered Enthusia before, but it sounds like it's got something going for it...

Wolfe2x7
Hey everyone, I recently returned from an incredible trip to Germany, and before you ask, I lapped the Nürburgring not once, but twice! :crazy:

:dopey: :yuck: :crazy: :sly: :ill: (That's every shade of green I can find) You didn't tell the rental company you were going on the 'Ring did you??? :sly:

Wolfe2x7
First of all I think I should mention that the museum near the Südscheife (modern, F1 course) contains an entire room devoted to Gran Turismo 4, with maybe 30 TVs and PS2's installed in the walls, and a 3-screen, DFP-equipped, full-motion simulator version in the center (Sony/PD really enjoy promoting their product :dopey: ). The simulator is free, and spectators can watch your performance on a separate black-and-white TV from the same cameras that are used in replays on the home version. I did the simulator only a couple of hours before I did my laps, so a comparison was easy to make.

That just makes me want to go even more...!!! Thanks for the info 👍
 
Wolfe2x7
Both games start at what I believe is a non-existent starting point (the tourist entrance is where PGR2 and Forza start, and real-life races dip into the F1 course a little bit, as well as start from there).

GT4 uses the old start/finish, before the F1 track was included.
 
Yeah... the Ring is definitely too short in GT4. I saw that video with GT4 next to real life and the GT4 BMW 120i could keep up with a real life RUF.... makes no sense. :D
 
Theres not THAT much difference, GT4 is pretty accurate but it's the Nordschleiffe without the Nurburgring included, races at the ring now include the Burburgring circuit as well as the Nordschleiffe and that's a normal circuit's lenth longer than the old ring we race on in GT4.
 
smellysocks12
Yeah... the Ring is definitely too short in GT4. I saw that video with GT4 next to real life and the GT4 BMW 120i could keep up with a real life RUF.... makes no sense. :D


I know that video, it has been edited so you could see the same parts of the track all the time together... of course the ruf was faster...
 
Thanks for all of the positive replies and comments! :) To be honest, I wasn't exactly sure people would tolerate me "messing with the giant," so to speak. :) Especially with Enthusia being as unpopular as it is. :(

Actually, the CTR wasn't faster than the 120i, and the 120i didn't just keep up with the CTR...
valli
I posted this on a ring thread but I don't think it's been posted before. It's a side by side clip of 4 minutes at Nürburgring, real life footage of a RUF Porsche and footage from the BMW demo, done by me a few months ago:

https://www.gtplanet.net/index.php?c...&p13_fileid=179

I time-stretched the BMW video so both cars hit the curves at the same time, very impressive IMO. You have to remember there's a camera position difference in the clips and more important, the field of view is different too.
"Time-stretch" means "slow down." :ouch:

Touring Mars: No, we didn't tell the company (Europcar) that we were going to the 'Ring, but my dad stashed the 'Ring map we bought between the passenger seat and the center console, and then we forgot about it when we returned the car... :embarrassed: No harm was done to the car, though, because I'm an expert driver. :lol:

gt_masta: I don't think BMW sponsors their own rental service there; you're probably thinking of BMW's Ring Taxi service, where you pay about $200 to have a professional driver whisk you and up to two friends around one lap of the 'Ring in a brand-new M5 (they already have the new, V10-equipped E60 M5). The cost of the rental, gas, and the entry fees for both laps ended up being cheaper than the taxi. :) Also, it would have been difficult to get to the 'Ring from Koblenz without the rental car.

famine: Thanks for the clarification; apparently PD and Konami really are wrong (considering their 'Rings are supposed to be modern).

300zxfairman: The course is about 12-14 miles long depending on the variation. The version that GT4, EPR, Forza, and PGR2 use is just the 12-mile-long Nordschleife by itself, which is only used for tourist drives, like I did. :)

Adam West: I'm not sure off-hand exactly how much the trip cost; it was kind of a big graduation present from my parents. I think it was like, $2000. The trip was actually a school trip with my high school German teacher and a few of the other students. We started off staying with host families in Magdeburg (southeast of Berlin) for 10 days. During this time we also went to Wolfsburg (home of VW), Weimar, Wernigerode, Buchenwald (concentration camp), and Berlin.
After that we went to Hohenschwangau, home of the Neuschwanstein (the castle that Disney based his castle after) for a few days. Then we stayed in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, at the foot of the Zugspitze, the tallest mountain in the Bavarian alps and the tallest point in Germany. Garmisch-Partenkirchen is where my dad caught up with us, mid-trip. A couple of days later (including a day in Munich where I got my picture taken in front of the BMW headquarters :) ), my teacher and the other students returned to america, but my dad and I stayed longer.
We spent some time in northern Bavaria, actually the exact area that our German ancestors came from, and met many nice people. We even found and had beers with someone who had the same last name as us, even though it turned out - by comparing family histories - that we weren't related. After that we spent two nights in Koblenz, which is the closest city to the Nürburgring. That's when we rented the car and did the 'Ring. On the way back to Munich (our flight took off from there) we stopped in Stuttgart, but the Mercedes and Porsche museums were already closed for the evening. :( However, as a result, I can say I've been in the home city of every German manufacturer. :) Wolfsburg (VW/Audi), Munich (BMW), Frankfurt (Opel), and Stuttgart (Porsche/Mercedes).

It really was too good to be true; I've always wanted to go there, and being able to do so...spending time with my dad, speaking German, seeing and being at the top of the Alps, going to the birthplace of our family, as well as the birthplace of BMW...drinking beer (now I wish I was 21, or back there again), driving on the autobahn and on one of the most famous racetracks in the world (but not after drinking the beer :dunce: )........
👍 👍 👍 👍 👍
 
Wolfe2x7
It really was too good to be true; I've always wanted to go there, and being able to do so...spending time with my dad, speaking German, seeing and being at the top of the Alps, going to the birthplace of our family, as well as the birthplace of BMW...drinking beer (now I wish I was 21, or back there again), driving on the autobahn and on one of the most famous racetracks in the world (but not after drinking the beer :dunce: )........
👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

Lucky bastard! lol

I don't speak any German and have no desire to, I'm not even sure if I am at all German (perhaps 1/2, my dad was adopted).....but Germany is the only European country I'd really like to visit for an extended period of time and drive on the Autobahn and the Ring. I'm sure Italy would be fun, too.
 
kennythebomb
Lucky bastard! lol

I don't speak any German and have no desire to, I'm not even sure if I am at all German (perhaps 1/2, my dad was adopted).....but Germany is the only European country I'd really like to visit for an extended period of time and drive on the Autobahn and the Ring. I'm sure Italy would be fun, too.

What about the Netherlands? 👍 💡 :dopey:

:cheers:
 
Wooden shoes, tulips, windmills.... lol... Nah, I'm sure any European country is fun and interesting to visit for a while. Amsterdam, Barcelona, Rome... great cities to spend a week or more.
 
Well, back on topic. Sadly, I have never been to the real track, but I would like to give my two cents on GT4 vs. EPR.

GT4's version of the 'ring seems very small and very bumpy. The only real footiage i have seen was in a documentary of F1 in the 1970's (The Quick and the Dead: Superb documentary of anyone can find one!) so I dont have much to compare the arcade versions to real life.

I find Enthusia's track more of a challenge, however. It is much darker around the track which gives it a more real-life appearance. I could also tell that some of the turns were different, but I dont know which ones quite yet seeing as I have only raced on the EPR track a few times.

Anyways, for all you hardcore GT4 fanboys out there I would still deffinatley like to recommend you play EPR if you havn't done so yet. Playing EPR seems to rid myself of many bad driving habits that I have obtained while playing GT4. If you have a wheel this game should be a must! While nearly imposible to play with the regular controller, the wheel makes for some fun playing. Anyways, my two cents is done.
 
wolfe, great write up, my only question is - isn't the damn rent car insured automatically against crashing? I would expect so otherwise I would never rent a BMW

and next time don't apologize for a slow lap time - driving Dad is something that I still hate, and I am 38 - I would never ever drive him around NOrdschliefe, but I am sure he would like to drive ME - your dad must be awsome 👍
 
romanryunin
wolfe, great write up, my only question is - isn't the damn rent car insured automatically against crashing? I would expect so otherwise I would never rent a BMW

Except on racetracks..and besides the T&Cs of the rental are dealt with by the rental agency and not by BMW!

You can usually spot the word Nordschliefe on rental contracts even if they are in German 💡
 
Scaff
Enthusia's version is just far, far to smooth, I would also disagree that the GT4 version is too bumpy (but some of the jumps are overdone). The bumpyness of any road surface will alway increase with speed, try driving the 'ring in GT4 at a lower speed and a lot of the bumps smooth out, also the set-up of the car you are driving will have a major impact on how they feel.
Different cars definitely provide a much different experience. The Garaiya JGTC car was bounced so much that it became hard to control, but the Pennzoil Nismo Skyline was a lot less rough.
 
Great post and a great read. I played Enthusia a couple of weeks ago and was very surprised at how much I enjoyed it and it's physics ... it really is a nice little game. My friend and I took a spin on the ring, of course, as we had done previously with GT4 and Forza and we both came to the same conclusions you have done (with the added benefit of 'real life' 👍 ).
 
I had neither the time nor the patience to sit through enthusia and unlock the ring and all the other various tracks. that game is just so ridiculously boring and lifeless.

Anyway, great post. It's always fun to read about how things compare to real life. Maybe one day we'll all go to the ring and make our own comparisons. :D
 
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