No Tune + BoP = Broken Gr4 (and more?)

  • Thread starter Voodoovaj
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2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
This isn't a debate post about the merits of tuning or the BoP. This is just about facts that anyone of us should be able to replicate. (with your own relative lap times)

Here's the test rules. No power or weight changes (set both to 100%). No tire changes (Racing Hards). That's it. Tune all you want.

I chose Lago Maggiore (forward, not the reverse). Pick whatever track you like, I doubt that it will matter.

I chose the the NSX Gr4 as the median car since it seems to have no BoP changes in BoP races. Choose whatever you want as a target car.

I managed to lap consistently in the 2:05's on Lago Maggiore. I could probably get it into the 2:04's with a little more time and a better lap, but I wanted something mid grade to compare against so I settled on my 2:05:577 lap. I wanted something that replicated an average race lap rather than an all out pole lap to "race" against.

My pole time from the Daily Gr4 race there yesterday was 2:04:8.. in the Megane.

With the Megane set to 100%, with a tune, I lapped in the high 2:05's. I recorded a best of 2:05:8 (1 full second slower)

With the Lexus, I got it to go 2:05:7 (no tune, I could not go faster than low 2:07's)

I got the Ferrari to go 2:05:3 (The BoP drops this car by 40 hp which KILLS it's lap time)

2:05...2:05...2:05...2:05

We can quibble over the lap time, and the ability to go faster or slower, but I am 100% confident, in that I will bet my life on this, that I will not go 1 full second faster in any one car without, with the same effort, finding 1 second in the others and I strongly doubt that I can get any one car to be 2 seconds faster than the others. I mention this because, with BoP on, I am 2+ seconds faster in the Megane than the rear drive cars.

Now, we all know that the game shipped with the BoP races allowing tuning. I will argue that BoP is intended to work with tuning and that it is currently broken without the tuning AND that it needs to be reset. It's most apparent in GR4, but I wonder what's happening in the other groups. I haven't tested it yet.

For the N cars, the only one I know that is a problem is the 911 which seems to be 1 category too low (it is really and N600 car, not N500, based on it's lap times). However, I have in no way tested the N cars and this is simply anecdotal.

Anyway, here's an activity for those who want to play with it :D
 
1,324
Canada
Toronto
Did you tune yourself?
If so, how many tunes did you try?

I only ask because when tuning was allowed you could easily shave a half second off between good tunes and bad tunes.
 
1,835
United States
United States
Did you tune yourself?
If so, how many tunes did you try?

I only ask because when tuning was allowed you could easily shave a half second off between good tunes and bad tunes.
I think the big question is like in GR4 are the current OP cars benefiting as well from an optimal base tune that really cannot be improved while other cars could benefit from tuning bringing them closer to the OP lap times reducing their advantage over the other cars as they have a worse base tune from PD that could be improved.

Maybe some of the top tuners considered to be the best at tuning rides could run a few experiments as it would be interesting to see their results.
 

Stotty

My other car's a Porsche
Premium
8,642
United Kingdom
London
GTP_Stotty
For the N cars, the only one I know that is a problem is the 911 which seems to be 1 category too low (it is really and N600 car, not N500, based on it's lap times).

I ran most of the N600 cars and the GT3RS around Suzuka East a couple of weekends ago... just a bot of fun, all stock, and not exhaustive, but the GT3RS was faster for me than all the N600 cars... some by a very big margin.

The F Type was pretty quick too IIRC.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
So, if it's quicker than most N600...it's definitely not an N500. I turned it down to N400 and was still as fast as the N500's
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
Did you tune yourself?
If so, how many tunes did you try?

I only ask because when tuning was allowed you could easily shave a half second off between good tunes and bad tunes.

Yes, I did. Not many tunes. As stated, I shaved almost two seconds off the Lexus base tune. Once you've gained seconds though, you start reaching diminished returns on time. My point is that the cars became SUPER equal in a short amount of time. More equal than with the BoP, but read below.

Also, the bigger picture may be lost here.

If the Megane and the Ferrari can both run in the 2:05's, and maybe 2:04's with a tune @ 100%, why is the BoP Ferrari so severely nerfed to the point of being useless while the BoP Megane is pumped to the point of being all conquering?

I think the big question is like in GR4 are the current OP cars benefiting as well from an optimal base tune that really cannot be improved while other cars could benefit from tuning bringing them closer to the OP lap times reducing their advantage over the other cars as they have a worse base tune from PD that could be improved.

Maybe some of the top tuners considered to be the best at tuning rides could run a few experiments as it would be interesting to see their results.

I concur.

I know that with GT Sport, 1 click up or down on any setting can have a huge effect. Especially on the diff and the dampers. With all the cars having the exact same diff and damper settings, this means some cars are going to be more affected than others. Not to mention any advantage/disadvantage the BoP gives. In essence, the BoP becomes even MORE of a hindrance for some cars because it is nerfing something that is already hindered.
 
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550
Portugal
Braga, Portugal
pedrocor
Didn't get the point...

BoP on GT3 and GT4 on real world have many tunes locked too. And other very limited tunes too.
Never was a question on who was fastest without BoP and free tuning. It is precisely the other way around.
Exactly (except on real world some minor tuning is allowed) how it works on the game.
PD can't be messing with physics and try to figure out the right BoP, that's all.
 
276
United States
Maryland
I wish they would make more Megane Gr.4’s to help Balance the Class. Would be really really really really cool to see different Meganes on the track!!
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
Didn't get the point...

BoP on GT3 and GT4 on real world have many tunes locked too. And other very limited tunes too.
Never was a question on who was fastest without BoP and free tuning. It is precisely the other way around.
Exactly (except on real world some minor tuning is allowed) how it works on the game.
PD can't be messing with physics and try to figure out the right BoP, that's all.

But the real world and the game world and not equal. Does the BoP in the real world change the car's base stats or are the cars in the game already using their BoP stats? I don't know. If the game is starting with BoP adjusted stats, and then the game's BoP is added on top, then that would most definitely break the balance.

My issue is this. On Lago Maggiore, I have been testing the Gr4 cars and, with a tune on them, they are all pretty much equal. I got the Scirroco to lap fastest at 2:04:8. I got the Mustang to lap at 2:05:2. So, it's obvious to me that the game's BoP is unbalancing the cars, which is the complete opposite of what it should be doing.(It's not called the Unbalance of Power).

So, the point of this thread is this, if the cars are ALREADY BALANCED (at least gr4) and the BoP is unbalancing them, then it's obviously broken regardless of what is happening in the real world. I would like to see more people check this out. Considering the main thrust of the game is Balance of Power racing, having BoP be broken is akin online not working.
 
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2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
I wish they would make more Megane Gr.4’s to help Balance the Class. Would be really really really really cool to see different Meganes on the track!!

Although I appreciate the sarcasm, it appears that the Megane is not the problem. Without BoP, the Megane is actually a mid pack car. The problem is actually BoP.

The 458 is MAHOOOOSIVELY nerfed for no reason. It will lap in the high 2:04's to low 2:05's. The BoP cripples it and makes it lap in the high 2:08's to low 2:09's!

The Megane, on the other hand, goes a second faster per lap compared to its base.
 
72
United States
United States
I ran most of the N600 cars and the GT3RS around Suzuka East a couple of weekends ago... just a bot of fun, all stock, and not exhaustive, but the GT3RS was faster for me than all the N600 cars... some by a very big margin.

The F Type was pretty quick too IIRC.

So, if it's quicker than most N600...it's definitely not an N500. I turned it down to N400 and was still as fast as the N500's

The N ratings are strictly by horsepower, not performance.

You also need to understand that the 911 GT3 RS is unique in that its an RR car. The oversteer off-power is much more pronounced than with FR or MR, and if tire wear were more of a factor, it would be a lot worse on its tires, which is the reason why Porsche switched to an MR layout for the 991 RSR GT3 car.

It's balanced.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
The N ratings are strictly by horsepower, not performance.

You also need to understand that the 911 GT3 RS is unique in that its an RR car. The oversteer off-power is much more pronounced than with FR or MR, and if tire wear were more of a factor, it would be a lot worse on its tires, which is the reason why Porsche switched to an MR layout for the 991 RSR GT3 car.

It's balanced.

Have you actually tried it?

How do explain that the Porsche is MANY seconds faster with BoP on and it's to pace with the N600 cars with it off (at 100% power and weight). That is the definition of unbalanced.

Same with GR4. The Megane is many seconds better than the other cars with BoP on (unbalanced) and equal with it off at 100% (ergo, balanced).
 

Stotty

My other car's a Porsche
Premium
8,642
United Kingdom
London
GTP_Stotty
The N ratings are strictly by horsepower, not performance.

You also need to understand that the 911 GT3 RS is unique in that its an RR car. The oversteer off-power is much more pronounced than with FR or MR, and if tire wear were more of a factor, it would be a lot worse on its tires, which is the reason why Porsche switched to an MR layout for the 991 RSR GT3 car.

It's balanced.

Err... I've owned a 911 for over 10 years and have well over 150k miles of experience driving various versions on road and track... I know where the engine is ;)

In GTS, the GT3RS doesn't have much oversteer off the power, even with rear to set to 0 and LSD decel set to min. And despite having significantly less power, is faster than all the N600 cars.
 
2,321
Wales
Wales
TSR_GTWelsh
I just want to point out, suspension settings are not part of BoP at all, in any way shape or form. Unless you can prove the cars are all as easy to drive as each-other. For me setup doesn't make a car much faster, it can however make the car much easier to drive, which results in it being much faster.

Some cars are just awful (Lambo GT3) and as a result of this "settings: fixed" bull, are pointless to use.
 
369
United States
Ohio
Raced in the GR4 Daily yesterday against my better judgement. Total **** show. I drove the M4, qualified 9th in a field of (you guessed it) mostly Meganes and Scirrocos. All the Meganes I qualified ahead of proceeded to use me as their brakes because they can’t drive and use the OP car.

Back to just GR3 until they try and balance GR4 again.
 
72
United States
United States
Err... I've owned a 911 for over 10 years and have well over 150k miles of experience driving various versions on road and track... I know where the engine is ;)

In GTS, the GT3RS doesn't have much oversteer off the power, even with rear to set to 0 and LSD decel set to min. And despite having significantly less power, is faster than all the N600 cars.

I wasn't meaning to correct you, only to suggest that the 911s have a unique performance characteristic because of their drivetrain which can be difficult to drive if you dont know what to expect.

For you, it may not be that the car is significantly faster than other N500 cars, but that you're experienced with the car and know how to get the most out of it. *shrug*

Either way, we're off topic, I agree Gr. 4 needs fixing, locked BoP settings greatly benefit FF cars as it is.
 
1,835
United States
United States
I just want to point out, suspension settings are not part of BoP at all, in any way shape or form.
In most real world racing that employs BoP Ride heights, Aero, and in some orgs gear ratio's are locked as well. All suspension parts must be approved for the class as well so the range of spring rates, or shock adjustability can also be limited within a certain range to limit affecting the actual BoP ratings.

I would like to see either all cars be BoP adjusted on each individual circuit since all daily Sport races in this game are one off races and not part of a series to be of very similar lap times and for tuning to be allowed to set up a car to match a drivers preferences.

You should be able to choose any car within a class that has BoP employed and have as good a chance to win as any other car in the class.

I have no problems with locking items that can actually improve the lap time if all cars are balanced evenly at each circuit.
Handling and stability changes through suspension set up does not always have to result in being significantly faster to offer benefits in confidence and more stable behavior in certain situations.
 
899
United States
Phoenix Az.
HuddyBob
I took your Pepsi Challenge... well, I kinda messed up... I used GT3 cars... which I have only 4.
I have many more GT4 cars, so, maybe if I'm allowed (Missus) I'll try GT4's over the weekend at some point.
Suzuka - 2hrs in each car... because I am comfortable on this track.
In Gt4/5/6 it was not uncommon for me to spend over 8hrs tuning a car, so, these are not final tunes, but, represent a good base, for my driving style.
When i got to the point where I was driving in my ghost for most of the lap I figured that was all I was getting out of these cars with the following simple tunes;
-Race Hards.
-Power and weight at 100%, ride height unaltered.
-Played with areo only to balance... max up front and whatever it took out back to balance the car.
-No time to dial shocks/springs... left them alone and there is typically balance/feel/consistency/speed to be gained there.
-Dialed the roll bars based on stock spring/shock settings.
-Trans and diff dialed for the track, for each car.
Again, basic tune, then run it as hard as "I" can.
I am in no way saying I am fast, therefore I am also not saying this is the fastest these cars will go.
Figured since the 991 is my go to car it would lay a beating on all others if for no other reason than my familiarity with it.
IMG_0174_zpsqifn6kan.jpg

That 458 has a fair bit left in it, and is a beauty with part throttle lift mid corner, which Suzuka rewards... indicative in the time.
The 4C was easiest to go fast in, and has some left... needs more hp's to keep up with the 458, feels more predictable than the 458 in the twisty stuff.
The F-type "felt" the most lethargic, and "felt" totally out of it's league, and was difficult on corner exit... yet was easiest to drive and somehow matched my go to car... /scratching head. I did not dislike it, nor i am apt to spend much more time in it... or, maybe I will... that car confuses me.
The RSR surprised the heck out of me... it's my go-to car. As such I was most comfortable in it... yet slowest (if 1/1000th counts).
Ferrari really handles nice once dialed in (with simple roll bar and diff changes it's really rather nice to drive) too bad BoP makes it such a ham-fisted experience. There is a lot more to be had in this car with spring/shock tuning. Weight transfer never felt right.

So, is BoP broke?
Heck yes.
the 458 "should" be a competitive car in sport mode, but, it's handling is so ruined very few are running it.
The F-type will run with the 911... but not in sport mode from what i have seen.
The 4C is a beauty, and I think that relates to sport mode... popular car, seems to get good finishes.
991... is probably well represented in sport mode... steady pace wins the race.

Before my 2hs in each car is questioned...
I went back to cars to ensure that it was not just my time on track that was making up... well, time. I finished in the F-type, but could not beat my ghost from earlier in the day.
Started at 4:30, finished at 8:30.
 
531
Finland
Finland
Couple of nights ago I was racing in Nur24h lobby with friends. BoP Gr4 SH.

I started last. Chose the Megane. Finished first with a 8.55 and it wasn't even a good lap. Up 10 places. Was a crap tune as well, might have been full stock actually. Was also my first lap of Nur24h in an FF Gr4.

For comparison my fastest time so far from pole is 8.50 in my Aston. I'm guessing the Megane would destroy that.

Get it fixed PD.