Official alignment values thread

Discussion in 'GT4 Tuning' started by Greyout, Feb 28, 2005.

  1. Greyout

    Greyout

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    665
    Specifically, the toe settings and the weight distribution.

    The best guess that I can make is that a positive value for toe equals toe out in the front, and a negative value in the rear equals toe out. God knows what the numbers mean. Front toe = 4? 4 what? 4 degrees? 0.4 degrees? 0.4 inches? My theory is only based on the drawing in GT3, which showed red lines indicating where the angles were measured, but even then the + & - signs were too hard to read

    anyway, I was just wondering if anyone could confirm my guess of what positive and negative toe is. The description is of absolutely no help "toe out causes oversteer" blah blah - well I already #@#%! know that! But what is toe out? +? -?

    arg!

    also, is weight in the back a positive or negative value. If you put weight at -50, is that at the front or the rear? what about +50?

    Also, I must say I am a bit disapointed by the lack of effect these mods have. One would THINK that by shifting toe seetings from one extreme to the other, I'd figure it out, but there is very little difference...
     
  2. AEM Spec V

    AEM Spec V

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    29
    Toe out is when the tires appear to be pointed outwards (i.e. \ /, which is positive toe). In real life positive toe (toe out) is good for turning, will induce alittle more oversteer (doubt much noticable) but will help you corner. In REAL life it will KILL your tires, so most people set their toe to zero. But positive toe (toe out), to an extent, will help you corner better. Make any sense?

    *Check out the pocket tuning guide, there is an excellent description on all alignment aspects, including toe, very well written*
     
  3. Greyout

    Greyout

    Messages:
    665
    READ MY POST AGAIN

    I know what toe IS. I even know what Toe settings I want.

    THE QUESTION IS: what setting represents toe out in GT4? Positive or negative?

    I THINK that a positive number = toe out in the front and toe in the rear. By positive, I mean a positive number in the setting slider bar, like +3. The question is, am I right? I would like someone to point of somewhere in the game or in a manual that verifies or refutes this.

    There are a billion ways to display the settings you are adjusting, and PD picked the worst one.

    edit: thanks for your response, its just not what I was looking for, sorry for the harsh posts.
     
  4. AEM Spec V

    AEM Spec V

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    29
    Sorry, I glanced your post. I would assume that it would be positive as the number increases, negative toe is rarely used on any car. Similar to adjusting camber in the game, larger the number the more NEGATIVE camber you get. Whether they are talking about °'s or what, who knows.
     
  5. Duke

    Duke Staff Emeritus

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    I haven't messed with GT4s suspension adjustments. I'll look into it as soon as possible.

    The way GT3 handles toe is described in the sticky thread at the top, about 4 posts in. If that's precisely the way it was indicated in GT4, I'm not sure. But I believe that camber is still listed as positive instead of negative. They had toe correctly in GT3 so I doubt they changed it to make it wrong.
     
  6. Greyout

    Greyout

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    665
    GT3's toe adjustment screen looked like this

    I can't remember which circles had the + or - in them, and honestly, you couldn't read them because of the resolution (at least on my TV)

    it implies that toe out is positive on one end, and negative on the other.

    gawd wtf were they thinking when they made this interface... why couldn't they just zoom in and show what was going on
     

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  7. Greyout

    Greyout

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    665
    The adjustability range is from -4 to +4. There is no indication which way is toe out.

    one reccomended setup from a user calls for -4 in the rear and -2 in the front. I have no idea if he knows what he is talking about, but that suggests that a negative value = toe out, both front and rear, which is different then the GT3 diagram.

    edit: I suppose the + might be on the outside of the front, and the inside of the back.... I really wish I could see those images in the game...

    according the the post in the other thread, a negative value = toe in, but I'm wondering what evidence that is based on. Combining that theory with the GT3 drawing, one might think that a positive number is toe out in the front, and a negative number is toe out in the rear... if the measurement is from the back of the rear tire, looking rearward.
     
  8. Tank Racer

    Tank Racer

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    11
    Not sure how the game designers did it but in the REAL world negitive toe is toe out.....positive toe is toe in. I know this cause I do alignments everyday and I also do the setups on my own circle track car .....hopefully the designers know this too.....oh and thats true wether its front or rear
     
  9. ledhed

    ledhed Premium

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    3,425
    / \
    \ / this equals - 01 ( f) + 01 (r) this will promote oversteer the opposite setting will promote understeer. + 01 (r) will promote oversteer - 01 rear will help cure oversteer and add to stability on a twitchy car like the Stratos for example.
    this game is VERY sensitive to toe settings .
     
  10. my98stang1

    my98stang1

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    i've found it better to have pos front, neg rear \ /
    / \
     
  11. ak

    ak

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    38
    Toe out is a positive number.
    Toe in is a negative number.
    I don't think it changes from front to rear.
     
  12. KSaiyu

    KSaiyu (Banned)

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    Yes, unfortunately in the game negative is toe IN, whereas in real life as you say it is really toe OUT, so it can be confusing in setups
     
  13. Tank Racer

    Tank Racer

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    11
    This is from the sticky at the top for settings



    Toe OUT is when the wheels of the car are pointing away from each other as they roll forward. This is NEGATIVE toe. The degrees referenced in GT3 indicate the total angle by which the wheels are not parallel. In other words, at zero toe, the centerlines of the wheels are exactly parallel with each other and the centerline of the car. At -0.5 degrees of toe, each wheel is pointed -0.25" (away) from the centerline of the car, for a total of 0.5 degrees.

    Toe IN is, therefore, positive. The wheels are pointed slightly toward each other as the car rolls forward.
     
  14. KSaiyu

    KSaiyu (Banned)

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    What the....? That's definetly not how it is for GT4, (I have the Japanese version and it makes CLEAR negative in the game is toe in) and I'm not sure if it was for GT3??
     
  15. sukerkin

    sukerkin

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    2,063
    I've always worked from the assumption that negative values in the game equate to Toe In - I 'proved' this to myself by using it to quell power oversteer in such things as maxed out Zonda's, Esprits and TVR's.

    Nontheless, it is another one of those 'matters of opinion' settings that never really got resolved in GT3. I was rather hoping that GT4 would make the situation plainer :(.
     
  16. KSaiyu

    KSaiyu (Banned)

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    It does make it clear in the Japanese version:

    Under toe it says in brackets (IN<->OUT), and the slider when moved towards IN is negative, while when it's moved OUT is positive, so from -4 to 4.
     
  17. sukerkin

    sukerkin

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    2,063
    That is excellent news Sai. At last one of the 'mysteries' is closed definitively :D.
     
  18. Greyout

    Greyout

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    665
    thats good news.

    I guess we just have to assume that its the same on the US version. This is very frustrating, and quite a blunder from PD.

    and I disagree about toe settings making a big difference in this game. They should, but don't.
     
  19. L8apex

    L8apex

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    6
    Me too! But I've always gone by the logic that the car always pulls to the higher alignment number, whether it be toe or camber or caster (imagine having to adjust caster in the game? Good god!). That being said, imagine just the left side of the car with a higher, positive toe number. It would pull to the left side of the road. Therefore, a positive toe number is a toe out, just as the Japanese version says. that's just how I remember it, in the game and in real life.

    btw. This is my first post. Great forum you guys have here!
     
  20. sukerkin

    sukerkin

    Messages:
    2,063
    Welcome to the Planet, L8Apex.

    First post and an intelligent one too :tup:.

    That's a nice 'mental map' way of thinking on the subject that you've brought to light - easy to remember and most helpful.
     
  21. ledhed

    ledhed Premium

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    3,425
    Get a ford gt and give it only - 01 front and + 01 rear and tell me you cant feel / see a difference ..its VERY pronounced ..Same with the Marcos ..the Ginetta ..the Stratos and most others I tried it on .
     
  22. Greyout

    Greyout

    Messages:
    665
    how about the ballast?

    is weight in the back a positive or negative number?

    is -50 weight in the back or front?
     
  23. Greyout

    Greyout

    Messages:
    665
    fine. I'll guess negative is in the back... who knows for sure though :(
     
  24. Tank Racer

    Tank Racer

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    11
    bumping this cause I still don't think the question has really been answered.


    Is toe out positive or negitive? :dunce:
     
  25. sukerkin

    sukerkin

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    2,063
    It would appear that the concensus is that negative numbers in the game are toe out and positive numbers are toe in.
     
  26. Tank Racer

    Tank Racer

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    11
    I agree but KSaiyu was pretty sure it was the other way around....said it was clear in the Japanese version
     
  27. ledhed

    ledhed Premium

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    3,425
    Negitive is in and positive is out. at least with this game anyway.
     
  28. sukerkin

    sukerkin

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    2,063
    Oops .. type in haste whilst at work and blush at leisure :O

    That is indeed what I intended to say, Ledhed :hides:

    The post by L8Apex wherein he describes a handy way to remember which Toe does what is almost a candidate for a sticky so that this question is resolved for all as far as GT4 is concerned.
     
  29. Acid X

    Acid X

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    6,654
    Location:
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    I can't stress this enough. You people have your OUT and IN crossed. OUT is NEGATIVE. NOT POSITIVE. Here, a DIRECT quote from Duke in the Pocket Guide at the top of this forum:

    I'm really surprised Duke didnt catch this.
     
  30. sukerkin

    sukerkin

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    2,063
    I wouldn't disagree with you Mr. X if it wasn't for KSaiyu's input which directly references the game screens.

    Then again, you're in the US and thus have GT4 yourself (lucky so-and-so). Does this and the fact that you point out that negative numbers are Toe OUT and positive Toe IN mean that the NTSC version of the game differs from the original Japanese release?