Opinions on the Scion Tc and other cars.

[///M-Spec]

The argument over the Skyline GT-R's curb weight has become nonproductive. It is also very OT. The issue is now closed.

The topic: Scion tC and it's competitors. Discuss.


M

 

[Jim Prower]

The tC, in my opinion, just doesn't have the visual pizaaz to look like a Scion. looks like a Hyundai, to offer a comparison.

Perhaps the Next tC should be based on the next Celica.

 

[T13R]

New GTi MKV, get it at base price (Who really needs the extra options? It already comes with alot of stuff), add 500-600$ of ECU tuning (just a simple software change) and you are pushing out about 250 hp and 300 lb.ft of torque at the crank. The torque band is also extremely flat making cruising in any gear really enjoyable, and if you need to speed up you don't even need to downshift. Even in stock form the car is already fast and handles very well. As for looks, that's in the eye of the beholder.

Someone said the Mazda 3 has high quality materials. I sat in one at a recent car show and the plastics used seemed kinda cheap looking and felt cheap, especially compared to the GTi.

 

[skip0110]

Someone said the Mazda 3 has good materials in the interior. I sat in one at a recent car show and the plastics used seemed kinda cheap looking, especially compared to the GTi.

Well a GTI starts at $22K (USD) and the Mazda 3s starts at $17.5K so you can expect some difference there...

 

[T13R]

Well a GTI starts at $22K (USD) and the Mazda 3s starts at $17.5K so you can expect some difference there...

I completely agree with you, but since cobragt will probably be looking to modify the Mazda 3 and possibly add a turbocharger kit ($3,800 USD) the price difference of both cars modded ($22.5K - $21.3K) is now of $1,200 (USD). So the price difference now is much smaller, and I really don't think the turbocharger kit comes with a free installation either...

Another point of interest is weight, the Mazda 3 being lighter will probably be faster at 230 hp than the GTi at 250 hp.

Edit:
Looked into pricing and weight from official Mazda website and VW website (although VW hasn't corrected the weight yet) and the results are the following:

Base price Mazda 3: $17,930
-- with possible turbo mod: $21,530

Base price VW GTi: $21,990
-- with software mod: $22,490

Weight Mazda 3: 2808 lbs -> 1276 Kg
Weight VW GTi: 3100 lbs -> 1409 Kg (quite heavy, only real problem of the GTi)

PWR Mazda 3 @ 230 hp: 5.55 Kg/hp or 12.2 lbs/hp
PWR VW GTi @ 250 hp: 5.64 Kg/hp or 12.4 lbs/hp

Mazda 3 @ 230 hp: 93.61 $/hp
VW GTi @ 250 hp: 89.96 $/hp

 

[Kent]

Ok, just a few things here...

1) Why is the Skyline such an important topic in a thread with the title "scion tc..." ?
Also, why is that topic over-riding the Mazda 3, TC, Civic, etc etc discussion?

Does anyone here really think the Skyline is in any way shape or form a competitor for the Scion TC?

2) 194GVan mentions the turbo on a Civic...
I thought Civics were NA.

Of course, I believe that is the truth and so I assume any turbo on a Civic is an after market add-on. With that in mind... Anything with a turbo is going to show some power in the top end of the rev range.

Now to get with the topic of the thread.

I think the Tc looks good and has some value. However, I don't like the idea of buying a Scion.
I do like the Tc's 4 wheel disc and 160hp base engine though.

Competitors to the Tc can be varied based on what you are willing to test drive... If 4 door cars aren't a problem I suggest:
(all '06 models since that's what I assume this discussion is about)
VW Jetta
Honda Civic
Toyota Corolla
Mazda 3 (although I've heard bad stuff)
Acura RSX
Nissan Altima or Sentra

Of those, as my daily driver I chose the Corolla ("S" model).
I love my car... 1188kg and 125 ft.lb torque.

Any way...
Later

 

[skip0110]

Edit:
Looked into pricing and weight from official Mazda website and VW website (although VW hasn't corrected the weight yet) and the results are the following:

Base price Mazda 3: $17,930
-- with possible turbo mod: $21,530

Base price VW GTi: $21,990
-- with software mod: $22,490

Weight Mazda 3: 2808 lbs -> 1276 Kg
Weight VW GTi: 3100 lbs -> 1409 Kg (quite heavy, only real problem of the GTi)

PWR Mazda 3 @ 230 hp: 5.55 Kg/hp or 12.2 lbs/hp
PWR VW GTi @ 250 hp: 5.64 Kg/hp or 12.4 lbs/hp

Mazda 3 @ 230 hp: 93.61 $/hp
VW GTi @ 250 hp: 89.96 $/hp

Excellent information there, once you add in the fact that a ECU mudification is going to have less of an effect on drivability than a turbo setup, the GTI looks to be (solidly) a better buy than the 3.

 

[toyomatt84]

Oh come on now, you really think he put that there to specifically piss you off? I dont see any other civic owners here putting up a fit about it, just let it go already.

I cant believe youre arguing it though, ive ridden in a t3/t4 b18c civic hatch numerous times, outside of that vtec power range, the acceleration isnt exactly stunning. But then again once it gets revved up and the turbo spools, holy ****, hold on to your hats kids.

Who invited you into this? But, seriously, Ghost C and I are always on debate with eachother. It's just the way he and I converse. He's got strong points of information, I've got strong points of information. We just feel the need to express them in a strong manner. We've been doing this for quite some time now, and only now you feel a need to step in? Sorry, you don't get a party hat. You're not welcome.

Ok ok, I will admit, I may have put that as a quote in my sig here at GTP at that very time just to have a shot at him, but it wasn't meant as an insult or anything, just a friendly jab. I use it as a quote for my sigs on several other websites, it's even one of my away messages for AIM.

AHA! I knew it.

 

[cobragt]

I came across a 95 MR2 for 2g. It's in good condition, good motor but has like 100,000 miles on it. I love MR2's but with insurance and all, I dont think getting it would be a good idea but it's so lovely! I'm gonna wait like a few months before I make my choice because I might come across something special!

 

[xcsti]

Some one correct me if I'm wrong but mr2's are pretty easy to find new engines/drivetrains for, right? As long as the body is good it seems like a good deal.

 

[cobragt]

the body is perfect, believe me but I'm more worried about insurance

 

[GT4_Rule]

The mileage too. 100k miles aren't very good...160k km sounds like a lot. Id advise you against it.

I don't personally like the styling of the GTi, looks too much like a Carolla. Which isn't bad but isnt good either. The effect of the Audi's gaping mouth grille is also at work - the whole front just isnt as good as the last gen's.

And if you perform the ECU reprogramming, won't that void the warranty since you're changing the basic thing about the car; for example, if the engine breaks down after, say, 3 years, and you take it back for warranty repair, wont they say no because since you modded the software, that might be the culprit (which is pretty stupid, but they use those arguments dont they?) and deny repairing your engine?

 

[JCE]

Edit:
Looked into pricing and weight from official Mazda website and VW website (although VW hasn't corrected the weight yet) and the results are the following:

Base price Mazda 3: $17,930
-- with possible turbo mod: $21,530

Base price VW GTi: $21,990
-- with software mod: $22,490

Weight Mazda 3: 2808 lbs -> 1276 Kg
Weight VW GTi: 3100 lbs -> 1409 Kg (quite heavy, only real problem of the GTi)

PWR Mazda 3 @ 230 hp: 5.55 Kg/hp or 12.2 lbs/hp
PWR VW GTi @ 250 hp: 5.64 Kg/hp or 12.4 lbs/hp

Mazda 3 @ 230 hp: 93.61 $/hp
VW GTi @ 250 hp: 89.96 $/hp

Great comparo, I'd still choose the Mazda3 mainly based on the fact that insurance will be cheaper, I think it looks better (this one is my opinion), it's quite a bit lighter (with weight reducing mods even lighter!), and it is still cheaper even after the mods--and if you count the cheaper insurance it's a no-brainer--I'd take the 3.

P.S. Regardless of the interior opinions can we all agree that the exterior is extremely sexy on the hatch model? The saloon is ok--but the hatch is very good looking I think.

 

[cobragt]

yea, the mr2 does have alot of miles.

 

[194GVan]

Why dont you go test drive these cars youre considering? the tC, the Mazda 3, etc...

 

[cobragt]

I have test drove the cars. The Tc handled with ease, was tight around corners and just wanted to go fast. The lancer ralliart begged to go fast and it took corners better than the 3 tc and gti, sentra spec r included. But out of all of them, the gti was the most powerful, of course.

 

[YSSMAN]

Have you looked at the naturally aspirated version of the Chevrolet Cobalt SS? That can be had for well under $20K with leather, 5MT, bodykit, sport suspension, and 17in wheels... Performance should be a bit better than the tC (due to lower weight I presume), and you can get it in either two or four doors. Another BIG plus with the Cobalt is that insurance rates are cheap... It was (I belive) number 5 on the cheapest cars to insure list, and added to that, fuel economy is pretty good on the 2.4L engine.

...However, I have herd that on SOME (thats SOME) of the Cobalts, the build quality is absolutely horrible. You do get a 3-year 36,0000 mile warranty when new, but no one is sure how long the problems will last as the car has been out less than a year.

The Cobalt I drove was a 2005 LT Sedan with the 4L60E variant automatic. It was quiet, rode nicely, and was a bit more refined than Neons and Focuses I've driven. But weight is an issue for the car, and the base 140HP engine is adequate at best. I assume the new SS versions completely transform the car, so I would suggest giving it a look...

 

[GT4_Rule]

The SS beat the RSX Type-S in a comparo in Car & Driver too.

It rocks!

 

[cobragt]

I actually drove the N/a ss cobalt. Its fun but it didnt make me proud to be in it, to say the least. What I want, is a car that's simple but looks great. The tc and mazda 3 have the qualities I'm looking for and when I see either one on the street I turn my head. Now dont think I'm all about looks, I want something with great looks and performance. With the tc or 3, I'd get a car with great looks and good performance for their class. I like the cobalt ss but it just reminds me of the srt4 so much, like chevy's attemp to copy dodge but that's my personal view. Now I wont take the cobalt out of consideration because it is a good car with good performance for its price.

 

[niky]

Go for where your heart leads you... can't go wrong with either the TC or the 3.

Doesn't surprise me that the ralliart feels nimble... considering it's the oldest and probably lightest chassis amongst your picks. Don't ask me what that means in terms of safety, though... both the Lancer and the Sentra are pretty long in the tooth and aren't as solid as the others. I wouldn't recommend either one, despite being a former die-hard Sentra-phile.

I'd still pick the 3 over the others... and any power deficit either the 3 or tC has compared to the GTi is just an aftermarket mod away (oh, okay, a whole bunch of mods, then).

@Kent: what bad stuff about the 3? Oh yeah, don't go for the automatics... I have an instinctive distrust of any Mazda AT. The manuals are sweet. Some have complained of rear brake issues on early 3's (could lead to snap oversteer) but I think that's resolved now.

 

[Kent]

Well...
You know how I just bought a Corolla right?
My close friend also just bought a new car... '06 Civic (top of the line, think it's a DX).

Any way, I wasn't interested in the 3 but my friend was seriously interested in the 3. With that in mind, he spent some time test driving the Mazda. After testing and comparing to the other competitors he was seriously unhappy with the ride quality as well the feel of the build quality.

Since I wasn't interested in the Mazda from the start (except for a small part of me that loved the looks of the hatchback and the 2.3 engine), I didn't pursue the 3 as a possible buy.
At this point I am fine with that.
However, I would have liked a test drive just to see if the quality of the build and the feel of the car are really as bad or "cheap" as my buddy said.

In any case, that's just one guy saying the car didn't match up to the other big names... No big deal.
If a 3 is a possible buy for anyone here I suggest they go and drive it. 👍

Regardless of all that... I see the VW GTI as one of, if not, the best FF compact sports car for sale on the American market.

All the specs about turbos and add-ons don't matter to someone like me all that much.
I preffer to judge the stock car first then deal with mods if I buy the car (buying a car with the intention of spending several thousand in mods is a good sign that you should have bought a more expensive car in the first place).

Also regarding the GTI, I think the Jetta and the GTI are the only two cars in the entire Audi/VW line-up that manage to look good with the new grill design. 👍

Finally I just want to mention that (regarding specs and a comparison between the GTI and its competitors)...
There are some things numbers can't represent.
The quality of the interior, the "build quality," the feel of the car as a whole, the appearance of the car... The list goes on and and on.

So, I think it is best to look into the car you like most based on the exterior and interior appearance, as well as the feel of the seating and driver's position. After judging a car on those qualities it may be time to consider TWR/ PWR.

Simply put:
I would rather have a good looking car with a comfy, good looking interior than a slightly faster car without any of the traits listed above.

 

[cobragt]

well think of this, the gti is turbocharged, the tc and 3 arent. Now you can make a supercharged tc that will be equal to the gti and still cost less and there's a mazdaspeed 3 coming out and I bet that will be like 20 or more grand.

 

[cobragt]

Well...
You know how I just bought a Corolla right?
My close friend also just bought a new car... '06 Civic (top of the line, think it's a DX).

Any way, I wasn't interested in the 3 but my friend was seriously interested in the 3. With that in mind, he spent some time test driving the Mazda. After testing and comparing to the other competitors he was seriously unhappy with the ride quality as well the feel of the build quality.

Since I wasn't interested in the Mazda from the start (except for a small part of me that loved the looks of the hatchback and the 2.3 engine), I didn't pursue the 3 as a possible buy.
At this point I am fine with that.
However, I would have liked a test drive just to see if the quality of the build and the feel of the car are really as bad or "cheap" as my buddy said.

In any case, that's just one guy saying the car didn't match up to the other big names... No big deal.
If a 3 is a possible buy for anyone here I suggest they go and drive it. 👍

Regardless of all that... I see the VW GTI as one of, if not, the best FF compact sports car for sale on the American market.

All the specs about turbos and add-ons don't matter to someone like me all that much.
I preffer to judge the stock car first then deal with mods if I buy the car (buying a car with the intention of spending several thousand in mods is a good sign that you should have bought a more expensive car in the first place).

Also regarding the GTI, I think the Jetta and the GTI are the only two cars in the entire Audi/VW line-up that manage to look good with the new grill design. 👍

Finally I just want to mention that (regarding specs and a comparison between the GTI and its competitors)...
There are some things numbers can't represent.
The quality of the interior, the "build quality," the feel of the car as a whole, the appearance of the car... The list goes on and and on.

So, I think it is best to look into the car you like most based on the exterior and interior appearance, as well as the feel of the seating and driver's position. After judging a car on those qualities it may be time to consider TWR/ PWR.

Simply put:
I would rather have a good looking car with a comfy, good looking interior than a slightly faster car without any of the traits listed above.

great post and in bold, I'm exactly like that. If I cared about a faster car only, I would get the cobalt ss supercharged or the srt-4. Now while the cobalt looks good, it just doesnt stand out, and the turbocharged neon just looks like a neon with a face lift. the tc has such a cool look to it, reason why that's my main car to get, same with the 3. The hatch version of the 3 really gets my eye, the sedan looks good no doubt. And I havent forgot about the ralliart lancer, sentra spec r and gti. Now the raillart and spec r look just like their lower trims but with ground effects and that's making me kind of move away from them but they dont look bad at all. I actually like how the ralliart looks over the specr. I wonder how the GTi compares to the srt4. And I'd like to know how the supercharged tc compares to the gti and srt4 stock.

 

[niky]

Probably what Kent's friend was talking about was the plastics. Some of Mazda's plastics aren't all that, and the ride is on the firm-ish side.

Coming from a Protege MP3, though, the ride's never really bothered me.

If you don't care about speed, then it's definitely with the naturally aspirated Japanese that you must go...

The GTi is probably a few ticks slower than an SRT4, but should probably be even (or faster) than a supercharged tC (considering the tC is on a Camry wheelbase).

I'm still not sold on the ralliart (remember, it's an oooold chassis), but this is for you, man. If it rocks your boat, kick it. Light and simple is often more fun to drive than heavy, modern and powerful.

And there's a lot of knowledge wafting around on how to transplant EVO engines into a FWD chassis. But that's crazy talk.

 

[cobragt]

I know of someone on a lancer website who did a engine swap with his lancer. he used a evo engine, no lie. If you want me to find the thread, I will

 

[cobragt]

Probably what Kent's friend was talking about was the plastics. Some of Mazda's plastics aren't all that, and the ride is on the firm-ish side.

Coming from a Protege MP3, though, the ride's never really bothered me.

If you don't care about speed, then it's definitely with the naturally aspirated Japanese that you must go...

The GTi is probably a few ticks slower than an SRT4, but should probably be even (or faster) than a supercharged tC (considering the tC is on a Camry wheelbase).

I'm still not sold on the ralliart (remember, it's an oooold chassis), but this is for you, man. If it rocks your boat, kick it. Light and simple is often more fun to drive than heavy, modern and powerful.

And there's a lot of knowledge wafting around on how to transplant EVO engines into a FWD chassis. But that's crazy talk.

If I do get the tc, i wont sc it, I'd tc it. From what I have heard, tc's are monsters when on boost and that's interesting. the front bumper end on a tc just begs for a intercooler

and dont get me wrong, I want good get up(speed) out of the box, like I'd be happy with 160hp and 160 ftlb of torque. I can work from 160hp with force induction devices and get over 200hp and that'd be good enough for me because I'm no street racer, I tend to take the bait of ricers and their hondas but for the most part, I dont street race. I would like to go tracking but with shcool and work, that's a no, maybe in the summer.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Phew

After the arguments gone its much quieter here which is better