Original Track Redesigns - Good or Bad? [READ OP]

[LeGeNd-1]

I don't normally make new threads but original Gran Turismo tracks are a topic I hold quite dear (and I believe there are lots of others who are the same) so here goes.

Just like everyone else who have watched the trailer, I'm so excited to see Trial Mountain back in the next game. I have been playing since GT1 and it's not an understatement that I've probably turned thousands of laps on the track. Before I even knew about the Nordschleife, I had already memorized TM to memory. However, my excitement turned to horror as soon as I saw the track map, and it sank further upon seeing the onboard footage seeing how badly the track layout and surrounding scenery has been changed.

What are the changes?

• Track has been widened in a lot of places.
• Cliff faces pushed back.
• Tunnel lighting is totally different (single white light in the middle instead of yellow on both sides).
• Undulations on the backstraight are flattened.
• Tree canopies on after tunnel are pared back. Remember how gorgeous the sunlight streaming through the canopy in GT3 looked?
• Downhill esses are wider and less steep, so it's less exciting and challenging.
• Finally, worst of all, that fast final chicane is now Tilkeified into a slow mickey mouse section. There is only one correct line through the old chicane, and a tricky bump on the exit that can catch you out if you're not careful. Now it's basically just Spa's bus stop that encourages divebombing.

Some people like the change and argue that it is necessary, so below I have provided some of those arguments and counter-arguments to show that most of them don't make sense and/or could be accommodated while still maintaining the original DNA of Trial Mountain.

1. Change is necessary for modernisation.
OK, I can accept change is sometimes necessary. I didn't even like the esports direction of GT Sport at first but now I'm hooked (500+ sport mode races and counting).

• I understand the way the original tracks were designed doesn't look good anymore for current generation (a narrow tunnel of road with walls/trees on both sides, with no surrounding scenery and basically the whole thing just floating in mid air).
• I can accept that graphical updates are necessary, and the surrounding scenery needs to be filled in for those wide angle replays during broadcasts.

BUT we can do that without radically changing the layout and flow of the track.

• High Speed Ring looked radically different (and much longer) in GT5/6 but still has all the character of the original from GT1-4.
• Grand Valley and Midfield also had some corners changed (esses before tunnel squared off in GV and first 2 corners squared off in Midfield), but mostly survived intact.
• Apricot Hill, Deep Forest, Autumn Ring and the Special Stage tracks survived pretty much intact in GT5-6, and no one ever complained they looked unrealistic or bad to drive.
• The SS Routes have been replaced with Tokyo Expressway in GT Sport, which are completely different and (correctly) called a different name, so I'm okay with that.

2. Old Trial Mountain doesn't meet FIA safety standards or realistic physics.

• Dragon Trail's death chicane would never be approved in real life either. Same with all Tokyo Expressway tracks due to lack of runoff.
• The new TM chicane, also doesn't have any runoff area on the outside. Which actually makes it even worse than the old design in terms of safety because you're arriving at higher speed, and the wall is now 90 degree to the track.
• Physics looks to be mostly the same from GTS, which is also similar to GT6, so it's not even an argument at this point. I've driven Trial Mountain as a mod in Assetto Corsa and it's perfectly drivable even with more realistic physics.
• The great thing about fictional tracks is you can make amazing driving experiences without thinking considerations of cost, safety, regulations and all those limitations IRL. So why limit yourself? We will still have all the realistically modeled real world tracks in the game too.

3. Old TM straight/pitlane is too short for 20+ car races.

• They could scale the whole track larger (like new High Speed Ring) so it could fit on the main straight without changing the basic layout.
• Alternatively, they could be more creative in designing the pit shape (e.g. Eiger Nordwand has one that doubles back on itself).
• Ultimately though, I don't think this is an issue because the current pitstops in GTS always have your car teleporting straight to a pitbox after you entered. It makes no difference whether you have your own spot or not. We've raced at Tsukuba, Willow Springs and Goodwood which has short pitlanes (even Tokyo South with its weird parking garage pit - and it only has a spot for ONE car!).

4. New chicane will provide more overtaking opportunity.

• Maybe yes, but given a chicane by nature doubles back on itself, you will get overtaken straight away again on the second part. It looks like it increases overtaking, but it will just promote desperate last corner divebombs with no actual position change.
• The old chicane is very tricky to get right which leads to more mistakes, and you can take advantage of the mistake by slipstreaming them into T1 and overtaking there.

5. Issues with rolling starts & reverse layout as first corner.

• Tidgney (a frequent GT World Tour competitor) in his GT7 trailer review made a point that, in Sport Mode races with rolling start, people in mid and rear field positions would probably start in the middle or just before the chicane. Effectively punishing them before the race even began. It's the same problem in GTS currently whenever there are races on Sarthe/Spa/Suzuka/Barcelona. No such issues with the old fast chicane because it's easy flat from rolling start speeds.
• If we ever race new Trial Mountain in reverse, the chicane is going to be the first corner. You all know how Monza starts tend to go...

Conclusion...and some solutions!
I was so excited about seeing old tracks come back to life, but after seeing what they've done to Trial Mountain, I'd rather they just live in memory before they butcher anymore of these

But I also like to be positive, so I'd like to propose some ideas for compromise

1) Dear Polyphony Digital and Kazunori Yamauchi, if you are reading this, please consider adding BOTH the "Historic" and "Modern" version of Trial Mountain, along with any other original tracks you're planning to bring back and renovate.

Before people say it's a waste to have multiple versions of the same track, let me just remind you that we've done this before:
In GT4 we have Fuji 80s/90s/modern.
In GT5 we have La Sarthe 2005/2009.
In GT6 we have Monza and Brands 80s/modern.

2) Alternatively, you could just insert the old chicane into the grassy field area inside the new chicane, as I demonstrated HERE. Similarly with Deep Forest, none of the changes conflict with the old layout and you could easily keep the old roads intact, as I showed HERE.

If they can include 3 ovals in GT Sport without any NASCAR cars, and 3 rally tracks that are barely used online, surely they can include the original version of Trial Mountain/Deep Forest in addition to the renovated version?

Thank you for the consideration.

Yours sincerely,
GT fan since 1998

Spoiler: Extra food for thought

Great video by TeamVVV on the Deep Forest changes, which sums up my feelings perfectly:

 

[Suzumiya]

I would be fine with the layout change if the design language wasn't so inconsistent. The road lines at some parts of the track are utterly confusing, like this is their first time making race tracks. I would get it for something like Sardegna Road Circuit but it's a pretty closed off circuit from the rest of the roads it seems, so the roadlines and such do not make any sense at all to me, and the back straight needs some armco badly.

That being said... god, I hope they don't touch Grand Valley's layout at all.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Ideally, it would only be the graphics. However, I get that the older tracks might not be suitable for large grids...and especially not suitable for e-sports. I'd rather get something than nothing. I am a bit sad that even the PS5 version (resplendent with ray tracing and HDR) can't match the atmosphere of the Gran Turismo 3 version with the god rays shining down through the carefully arranged tree canopy at trial mountain.

 

[HarVee]

Things evolve with time. Tracks evolve with time. I welcome the changes done to Trial Mountain as it makes what is old feel new. And GT needs to find ways to mix the old with the new in order to succeed in the market space. There is a lot of nostalgia for old content, but a game with only old content feels old.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Trial Mountain is a unique case when compared to Midfield, Grand Valley and Deep Forest. It wasn't built like a traditional racetrack with appropriate runoffs - it had sheer rockfaces, a questionable last chicane and a small pit lane. OK I'll admit that these elements gave the track character but it always felt like a fantasy track that couldn't be built in real life. This new version makes it seem less of a fantasy track and more of a real road circuit. PD won't need to change up Midfield, Grand Valley or Deep Forest because their designs seem quite realistic and would only really need a graphical upgrade to work, in addition to the renovation of the buildings and facilities.

 

[regnar]

As been mentioned in some other threads, one thing to consider is some of the original tracks don’t have enough pit poxes for the current game play which may force resign of a portion of the course for that matter alone.

 

[RACECAR]

I feel pretty confident about High Speed Ring, Apricot Hill and Midfield Raceway not being altered too much should they return. Until yesterday, these were the most modernised fictional circuits that were redone with 16 car fields and online racing in mind so at best some modern scenic touches here and there will be done as most of the ground work on those is already kinda there.

As far as Trail Mountain is concerned, it was kinda well overdue for modernization as when you compare it back in GT6 to the three tracks I mentioned (All of which as also widened abit), it just looks severely outdated from both a fidelity standpoint and a design standpoint. There's also the fact that with the way the pit lane was and the number of cars has swelled up as well as the online racing aspect, that also was a big factor in that reprofiling.

 

[JTB10000]

Tokyo Expressway South Inner/Outer has its pit area as a small parking garage that can only fit a few cars so I don't think PD is too concerned with pit box numbers.

They've probably made these changes to Trial Mountain to make the course look more like a real world area turned race track like the GTS fantasy tracks. Hence why it has a location now.

I would be fine with the layout change if the design language wasn't so inconsistent. The road lines at some parts of the track are utterly confusing, like this is their first time making race tracks. I would get it for something like Sardegna Road Circuit but it's a pretty closed off circuit from the rest of the roads it seems, so the roadlines and such do not make any sense at all to me, and the back straight needs some armco badly.

That being said... god, I hope they don't touch Grand Valley's layout at all.

I agree with this though. It's possible it's all of these inconsistencies are because it's a WIP like most things in this trailer seem to be, however.

 

[MisterWaffles]

Well nostalgia or not, it's going to have to be capable of supporting a 20+ grid online in the GT Sport section of the game for it to be worth adding. I say these more realistic changes to classic tracks are a necessary part of game balance moving forward. Sadly, that necessitates the removal of Yeet Chicane.

 

[ThruxtonGT]

Most real world tracks have been modified in some way since the mid 90’s.
Silverstone is massively different. Spa with its bus stop chicane and tarmac run off areas, Hockenheim losing its Loop through the forest and the addition of the chicane in the final sector at Catalunya to name a few.
I don’t have a problem with any of the original tracks modernising either.

 

[regnar]

Still waiting for those pit stops shown in the Gran Turismo HD Concept trailer from 2006

@1:14

 

[Samus]

Most real world tracks have been modified in some way since the mid 90’s.
Silverstone is massively different. Spa with its bus stop chicane and tarmac run off areas, Hockenheim losing its Loop through the forest and the addition of the chicane in the final sector at Catalunya to name a few.
I don’t have a problem with any of the original tracks modernising either.

Those were all fixing real world issues though.

Silverstone was to modernize the pits.
Hockenheim was because of logistical issues and the environment.
Catalunya was for safety reasons, slowing them down through the last corner.
Spa was also safety related.

Fictional circuits in a video game don't need to address these issues, except the pits perhaps being too small.

 

[FoRiZon]

My complaint about the new Trial Mountain is not the stretched part, its the fact that the final "chicane" (more like 2 corners) is way too big for something that should've been the size of a Ford Chicane in La Sarthe and I very doubt the Pit Enlargement and Streched Circuit has to do with it.

 

[VincentVendetta]

I don't mind modernizing Trial Mountain; if anything, I think they haven't done enough yet; there are still parts of the track without any wall to stop cars from hitting a giant rock or going offtrack and hitting a tree. Same kind of modifications would be needed for Deep Forest, and more ("Hey there's a giant cliff where cars could go down, should we do anything about it?" "Nah, just put a small rail on the left side, it'll be enough. It's not like cars can go airborne.")

 

[Aphelion]

Ehhh, the final chicane was, in all honesty, one of the most hilariously fun, yet ridiculously stupid corners of any circuit ever created. I don’t remember a time when I went through that corner and something utterly ridiculous Didn’t happen. It pretty obviously needed to go.

I do however hope that both layouts exist, to be used in less than serious events. I love that layout so much.

 

[05XR8]

There are Sport mode races at Tsukuba. I'm sure any track added will accommodate 20+ cars. I'm sure Autumn Ring can support 20+ cars.

 

[ThruxtonGT]

Those were all fixing real world issues though.

Silverstone was to modernize the pits.
Hockenheim was because of logistical issues and the environment.
Catalunya was for safety reasons, slowing them down through the last corner.
Spa was also safety related.

Fictional circuits in a video game don't need to address these issues, except the pits perhaps being too small.

A fictional circuit that was designed in a time before online competition.
The old circuit still remains in the old games for those that want to play it.

 

[Samus]

A fictional circuit that was designed in a time before online competition.
The old circuit still remains in the old games for those that want to play it.

Sure, to be clear I'm not saying I'm against changes at all, just that drawing a comparison to specific real world changes is not really a fair comparison for the most part.

I'm all for making fictional tracks a bit wider in places and changing a couple of corners, but they may have gone a bit too far with this one. We'll only be able to truly judge by playing it though, obviously.

Certainly they haven't changed it only for safety/realism/FIA reasons though. If a real world track proposed this to the FIA they would be asked how many drugs they were on when they made the submission.

"So yeah, we were thinking the rocks and trees would work as a great barrier on the exit of this corner. The kerb in front should provide an excellent ramp to ensure the rocks really catch the cars"

"Also don't worry about the exposed trees and huge banks on the back straight where the cars are doing 300kph, we've installed some wooden picket fences there"

 

[ThruxtonGT]

Certainly they haven't changed it only for safety/realism/FIA reasons though.

No I think they probably changed it due to issues they had trying to import the track from the PS3 games. It’s very likely that it’s a complete rebuild from scratch. It makes sense to modernise it for online competition.

 

[FoRiZon]

Sure, to be clear I'm not saying I'm against changes at all, just that drawing a comparison to specific real world changes is not really a fair comparison for the most part.

I'm all for making fictional tracks a bit wider in places and changing a couple of corners, but they may have gone a bit too far with this one. We'll only be able to truly judge by playing it though, obviously.

Certainly they haven't changed it only for safety/realism/FIA reasons though. If a real world track proposed this to the FIA they would be asked how many drugs they were on when they made the submission.

"So yeah, we were thinking the rocks and trees would work as a great barrier on the exit of this corner. The kerb in front should provide an excellent ramp to ensure the rocks really catch the cars"

"Also don't worry about the exposed trees and huge banks on the back straight where the cars are doing 300kph, we've installed some wooden picket fences there"

Those seems to be easily fixed with adding guardrails and sone fence besides the track particularly for those sections.


If PD wants to and dont mind some of the eye candy being interferenced. Ideally they could add 2 version of the track, but we'll see.

Layout and road wise seems fine legally speaking.

 

[RACECAR]

Tokyo Expressway South Inner/Outer has its pit area as a small parking garage that can only fit a few cars so I don't think PD is too concerned with pit box numbers

Both of those are also the only newer layouts that do this while every other fictional circuit and layout still have pit lanes to hold that many. Seems to tell me that for the most part, they are concerned and these two exceptions are simply PD's classic inconsistency at work.

There are Sport mode races at Tsukuba. I'm sure any track added will accommodate 20+ cars. I'm sure Autumn Ring can support 20+ cars.

Feel like Autumn Ring will be another track to get an altered final corner. It won't be nearly as obvious on the track map as Trail Mountain, but it's another example of a track that is outdated in its design and last I checked, the full circuit's pitlane also can't hold 16 cars. It will likely get the widening treatment, hell I predict any returning fictional that isn't the previous three I already mentioned will get varying degrees of the widening treatment.

 

[Samus]

Nearly the whole track would require metal barriers, fencing and tecpro barriers in front of those. Even then, some areas still wouldn't pass FIA tests. Particularly the corner at the end of the straight, they wouldn't allow that with no run-off at all. Doesn't matter if they do put barriers/fences, not going to do much good if you hit it at 300+kph.

I think this whole "PD are making tracks that are FIA certified" is just something fans came up with. All PD ever said was their recreations of the real tracks were also certified, IIRC.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Grand Valley and Deep Forest had modernised redesigns in GT4 I believe. So its nothing new.

 

[ThruxtonGT]

Grand Valley and Deep Forest had modernised redesigns in GT4 I believe. So its nothing new.

High speed ring had major changes when it returned in GT4 compared to GT1 & GT2

 

[SimTourist]

Yeah, I don't like the fact that they changed the layout. These tracks were fun precisely because they were made with no consideration for real world safety or some online championships, it was fun getting on two wheels in that final chicane on Trial Mountain, gave some humour to an otherwise dry and serious game.
I'd say limit the FIA influence to real world tracks, the original circuits should be preserved as fans remember them.
Imagine if they brought back Cape Ring, the FIA would have a stroke.

 

[RACECAR]

I think this whole "PD are making tracks that are FIA certified" is just something fans came up with. All PD ever said was their recreations of the real tracks were also certified,

Yep, pretty much. Even a representative from the FIA themselves said that they have nothing to do with PD's design of the fictional circuits. So this idea that the FIA is somehow "Involved" is definately invented by the fans as none of that ever came from the FIA or PD.

 

[Veinz]

I’m all for bringing the old tracks back, but you also have to modernize them. They had to do something about the last corner on the old version of Trial Mountain. That would be a **** show in Sport Mode in GTS.

But there is a limit. I wouldn’t like seeing things like a bunch of low speed chicanes added to High Speed Ring or something.

 

[Alex p.]

I don't normally make new threads but OG Gran Turismo tracks are a topic I held quite dear (and I believe there are lots of others who are the same) so here goes.

Just like everyone else who have watched the trailer, I'm so excited to see Trial Mountain back in the next game. I have been playing since GT1 and it's not an understatement that I've probably turned thousands of laps on the track. Before I even knew about the Nurburgring, I had already memorized TM to memory. However, my excitement turned to horror as soon as I saw the track map, and it sank further upon seeing the onboard footage seeing how badly the track layout and surrounding scenery has been changed.

The track has been widened in a lot of places. The cliff faces pushed back. The tunnel lighting is totally different (single white light in the middle instead of yellow on both sides). The undulations on the backstraight flattened. The tree canopies pared back (remember how gorgeous the sunlight streaming through the canopy in GT3 looked?). The downhill esses are less dangerous and worst of all, that fast final chicane is now Tilkeified into a slow mickey mouse section There is only one correct line through the old chicane, and a tricky bump on the exit that can catch you out if you're not careful. Now it's basically just Spa's bus stop that encourages divebombing.

Before you say ok boomer, hear me out. I can accept change is sometimes necessary. Hell I didn't like the esports direction of GTS at first but now I'm all aboard. I understand the way the original tracks were designed doesn't look good anymore for current generation (a narrow tunnel of road with walls/trees on both sides, with no surrounding scenery and basically the whole thing just floating in mid air). I can accept that graphical updates are necessary, and the surrounding scenery needs to be filled in for those wide angle replays during broadcasts. BUT we can do that without radically changing the layout and flow of the track. Remember High Speed Ring? Looked radically different (and much longer) in GT5/6 but still has all the character of the original from GT1-4. Grand Valley and Midfield also had some corners changed (esses squared off in GV and first 2 corners squared off in Midfield), but mostly survived intact. Others like Apricot Hill, Autumn Ring and the Special Stage tracks survived pretty much intact in GT5-6, and no one ever complained they looked unrealistic or bad to drive. The SS Routes have been replaced with Tokyo Expressway, which are completely different and (correctly) called a different name, so I'm okay with that.

And before you say the old track isn't "safe" or not suited to new physics, I'll just say that Dragon Trail's death chicane would never be approved in real life either. Physics looks to be mostly the same from GTS, which is also similar to GT6, so it's not even an argument at this point. I've driven Trial Mountain as a mod in AC and it's perfectly drivable even with more realistic physics. The great thing about fictional tracks is you can make amazing driving experiences without thinking considerations of cost, safety, regulations and all those limitations IRL.

Some people mentioned below that the old TM doesn't have enough pit garages to hold 20 cars. Well they could always make the whole track a bit larger scale wise (like HSR) so it could fit on the main straight without changing the basic layout. Alternatively, they could make the pit double back on itself (youtube Eiger Nordwand pit to see what I mean). Besides, the current pitstops in GTS always have your car teleporting straight to a pitbox after you entered. It makes no difference whether you have your own spot or not.

I was so excited about seeing old tracks come back to life, but after seeing what they've done to TM, I'd rather they just live in memory before they butcher anymore of these

PD/Kaz, if you are reading this, please consider adding both the "historic" and new version of Trial Mountain, along with any other OG tracks you're planning. We've seen 2005/2009 La Sarthe and 1980s/modern Monza/Brands at the same time in older games so anything is possible 👍

Sincerely,
A fan since 1998

I'm fully with you on this one. Was actually about to open the same thread.

Honestly, I'm just so very much disappointed in the new version of the track. It just looks bland, plain, unattractive, without any character, boring and simply bad looking graphically speaking.

In all honestly, I might even prefer the GT1 version with the sunset to this, and definatly put the GT 3-6 versions over it. I much rather race on them upscaled to higher resolutions, than on this new monstrosity.

I shudder thinking about what they will do to Deep Forest, Grand Valley, Autumn Ring, Apricot Hill, Midfield Raceway, etc.
Really dropped the ball there, Polyphony.

 

[Azerach]

How many rants would we have about..
Being squeezed into the orbit launcher at last chicane.
Being bumped just as the car is about to go over one of the many jumps causing the car to rotate in air and turn you around.
Being bumped from behind just before a jump causing you to overshoot the braking zone.
Being unable to pass because the original track is a train of cars in narrow windy roads.

Despite its name sport mode needs a bit of coersion to promote sportsmanship.

 

[Lord Protector]

I’m okay with the layout being changed a bit to be more modern/realistic, but I want to feel the nostalgia and frankly the whole atmosphere is sort of gone..