Original Track Redesigns - Good or Bad? [READ OP]

[Hallitrd]

I believe there will be two versions of The Trial Mountain Circuit, the new version and then the original version. In the original version, the solution to the the final high speed chicane turn, I guess PD will have it similar as it is on the Goodwood Motor Circuit final chicane, barriers and wide low curb.
This final high speed chicane at Trial Mountain, is one of the most iconic turn in the GT series in my opinion.

 

[tankuroded]

For reference: in GT5/GT6's Trial Mountain, pit crews can spawn in rather strange locations:

 

[freedom1104]

if im very honest i like trial mountain as it is, just revamped the vegetation assets and rocks and road texture with better lighting and roadside objects is more than good enough than some funny redesign

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'd rather they were updated to reflect a functional real world venue, accepting that in the GT universe people spend millions on unnecessary tunneling and bridges to build circuits. The circuits should still look as though they were built for their purpose. The OG circuits were a reflection of what PD could achieve at the time and what was entertaining given the other game constraints, those things have changed, so the circuits should too.

Sincerely,
A fan since 1998

 

[Rangeraus]

A few things...

Location
I have had a hunch since GT Sport's launch that PD will only add in original tracks when they have a real-life location that they can laser-scan to satisfy their graphical/display requirements.

As per the trailer, Trial Mountain is based in the Sierra Nevada mountains in the USA. Whether that approximate topography (where the track is specifically laid out) actually exists I don't know... but it may have something to do with track layout or design.

Racing
Given the amount of time and effort (and money) that it takes to find/decide a location, scan a location and create it in-game, it makes sense that PD would want it used in-game as much as possible.

The old version of Trial Mountain would probably still have produced processional racing in Gr3 (possibly even Gr4), as the straights were not long enough, and the track was not wide enough. So that would have ruled out its suitability for quite a few vehicle categories already.

So, this is why I think PD have made the changes they have. I get that it may remove some of it's character/nostalgia value, and probably won't feel quite the same... I will judge this when I drive it myself. But a lot of people would get bored very quickly if you can't actually race there.

Conclusion
I don't have too much of a problem with it - they've retained some of the familiar elements and it should allow for good racing. Which is what it should be about.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I believe there will be two versions of The Trial Mountain Circuit, the new version and then the original version. In the original version, the solution to the the final high speed chicane turn, I guess PD will have it similar as it is on the Goodwood Motor Circuit final chicane, barriers and wide low curb.
This final high speed chicane at Trial Mountain, is one of the most iconic turn in the GT series in my opinion.

Yeah there won't be.

 

[Dave A]

A few things...

Location
I have had a hunch since GT Sport's launch that PD will only add in original tracks when they have a real-life location that they can laser-scan to satisfy their graphical/display requirements.

As per the trailer, Trial Mountain is based in the Sierra Nevada mountains in the USA. Whether that approximate topography (where the track is specifically laid out) actually exists I don't know... but it may have something to do with track layout or design.

I think that is certainly the case now, but I don't think it was the case back in the PS1 days. In GT2 it was suggested that Trial Mountain was in the UK (it was the location for the British National events). But certainly since GT5 the detail PD go into the set locations for thier fictional tracks has been high, maybe prior to GT5 too, but I don't think they thought as hard about the locations back when they made GT1 and GT2.

Given the amount of time and effort (and money) that it takes to find/decide a location, scan a location and create it in-game, it makes sense that PD would want it used in-game as much as possible.

The old version of Trial Mountain would probably still have produced processional racing in Gr3 (possibly even Gr4), as the straights were not long enough, and the track was not wide enough. So that would have ruled out its suitability for quite a few vehicle categories already.

So, this is why I think PD have made the changes they have. I get that it may remove some of it's character/nostalgia value, and probably won't feel quite the same... I will judge this when I drive it myself. But a lot of people would get bored very quickly if you can't actually race there.

I agree, it needs to be judged when we've driven it. I think the changes made have been with an eye on competitve racing and consistency between all of the tracks.

I don't have too much of a problem with it - they've retained some of the familiar elements and it should allow for good racing. Which is what it should be about.

Same, I think people forget that there are other slow corners in Trial Mountain and personally, I always preferred the first half of the track to the second anyway. But I'll leave the judging until I have tried it myself.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

I agree the changes to TM look very drastic. I also agree that changes to promote safety and good racing is necessary as time goes on and people get smarter.

However, TM as we see it takes some strides in becoming a proper racetrack, yet is still a ways from actually being one, as other members have pointed out the total lack of runoff and safety on the track. This I think makes it a rather identity confused track, because it attempts to appease the nostalgic fans and FIA at the same time, yet it doesn't feel like it does either at all. Of course, with this being a very early build, things could, and are most likely to change. But with the entire trailer based in TM, I don't know how much they can change it before release before people start calling BS all over again.

Me personally, I've always loved the death chicane in the OG TM, simply because it was a quick and easy way to flip cars to check out their underbodies (look, I'm weird, okay? Leave me alone). Again, with no runoff and being rather blind, you could very well be taking the corner full speed, only to be greeted by the front bumper of a car that just spun out, held on the driving line by the pit wall. Not to mention all the accidental side nudges such a chicane would induce. I want to be optimistic and say that the changes to TM are indicative of the planned improvements to the rest of game; maybe we will actually have consequences for bottoming out or scraping a lip of a car. Maybe we will actually have suspension damage simulation for mowing over humps and bumps now.

If it were up to me, I'd keep the changes to TM as seen in the trailer, with one exception: the final chicane. I'd carve out the new chicane, while leaving the old tarmac of the old chicane completely untouched. I'd then put yellow lines and chevrons over the old tarmac to act as track limits, so anyone who crosses the line gets penalised for track cuts. That way, the track is FIA ready, while OG fans get to drive the old chicane casually for fun.

It really is a shame about the flattening out of the back straight, though. It's Trail Mountain, it's supposed to be hilly and rocky. Can GT3 cars not handle something so gentle? I guess that means we're never ever getting Seattle if that's the case I'm going to miss the rock outcroppings and the monkey on that one tree trunk on TM.

Here's the thing though: I don't know if TM should have been FIAtified to begin with. Not every road in the world is meant to be raced on. Heck, not every track in the world is meant to be raced on, with the Nordschleife being the most prominent example. Yet, even tracks that aren't meant to be raced on have their merit and value. The Tokyo Expressway tracks in particular, born in the e-sports focused title GTS, is a well known nightmare for racing. No way would FIA ever certify those tracks for racing, yet they're raced in the FIA sanctioned Nations and Manufacturers Series. I don't really know if TM really needed the extensive redesign to be better suited for racing. I'm willing to bet most people who clamour for classic tracks don't even play Sport Mode. I think TM would be better off catering to the nostalgic crowd, because I don't think you can keep the atmosphere and theme of the original TM while making it safe and civil enough to race on. The walled in by rocks feeling and constant elevation changes are what made Trail Mountain Trail Mountain.

Besides, as a ex-frequent Sport Mode player myself, I think the Sport Mode players have more than enough tracks to have a proper race on. We don't need TM. I actually think Grand Valley and Apricot Hill are the only original track that's worth racing on, as much as I love the classic tracks.

 

[MIE1992]

I think redesigns are entirely necessary for most of the original courses (especially from the PS2 era) except for Apricot Hill. That one seems largely fine as-is. Online racing would be a mess if they kept them entirely intact. Either that, or they'd largely be barred from online races, making their inclusion next to worthless. We should also consider that the PS2-era courses were made to accommodate six cars, too, and we've been able to see far more cars than that since the PS3 era.

Besides, real-world courses always undergo changes - just look at courses like Le Mans, Fuji, Monza, Interlagos, and Suzuka. Why should GT's original courses be exempt from this facet of track design?

 

[BrunusCL82]

I really liked the addition of TM and I also liked the extension of the track length. This was important to support the number of more than twenty cars online.

However, I didn't like the visual concept of the runway margins. I think the ideal would be to extend the two lateral areas of the layout, cutting the slopes, widening the runway, to build something similar to the Dragon Trail.

Another thing. I did not like that the asphalt has intermittent and duplicated lanes, as if it were a circuit taken from a highway. I searched the landscape and found no exits and entrances to other roads (Maybe, El Capitan Circuit - considering that TM is also located in Sierra Nevada). So, this visual option makes the concept a little silly and with arcade appeal.

About the great cliff, at the end of the opposite straight line, I think that, visually, the ideal thing would be to place a wall with wire fences, typically as it is placed in the oval circuits.

 

[Nielsen]

PD created these tracks so they are free revise them, but obviously the circuits also need to stay true to themselves. Trial Mountain appears to do this sufficiently.

 

[Big_Homie23]

The revamped Trial Mountain seems to be rather good. Keeping some of the old components that made the track and modernizing it to being viable for modern racing.
I am definitely ok with the increased length of the straights and widening of the track along with getting rid of some of the elevation changes
(such as the hills exiting the tunnel to lower the chances of accidents happening at the blinding left corner) Although people are still going to ram regardless
Getting rid of the yeet chicane I am mixed with because that made the track memorable and the argument for "safety" falls flat when you have the blinding death chicane of dragon trail - which made THAT track memorable

But the aesthetic has been neutered in a way. The tunnel lights are no longer the yellow beams on either side of the track and are now a single white stripping of lights
The trees exiting the tunnels no longer have branches and leaves hanging over the course that would partially block sunlight which used to look beautiful back in GT3-4.
Those are minor details that we may miss but all in all, the track still is Trial Mountain and I am sure nostalgia will hit back in certain ways along with a welcoming new feel.

 

[danh25]

I think the trial mountain will have many aesthetic changes and maybe even a little bit about the layout because I found it a clearly WiP track.

 

[Tornado]

It seems most of the actual layout changes were brought about because Trial Mountain's pit access was kind of crap all the way back in the PSX days. Everything else so far seems like it's mostly aesthetic changes and profiling changes, which GT tracks have had before. They futzed with Midfield in GT4 even after the track was in GT3, and High Speed Ring was very different from how it was in the first two games as well.

 

[Satomiblood]

I think it looks good. While I would’ve been fine with the layout being unaltered, they didn’t bastardize the track.

 

[venancio]

I think the last chicane could be a fast one, but it would kill any chance of overtaking and because the online competitions I believe that's the why they chose this slow chicane.

 

[05XR8]

It's probably why they lengthened the straights.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Sure, to be clear I'm not saying I'm against changes at all, just that drawing a comparison to specific real world changes is not really a fair comparison for the most part.

I'm all for making fictional tracks a bit wider in places and changing a couple of corners, but they may have gone a bit too far with this one. We'll only be able to truly judge by playing it though, obviously.

Certainly they haven't changed it only for safety/realism/FIA reasons though. If a real world track proposed this to the FIA they would be asked how many drugs they were on when they made the submission.

"So yeah, we were thinking the rocks and trees would work as a great barrier on the exit of this corner. The kerb in front should provide an excellent ramp to ensure the rocks really catch the cars"

"Also don't worry about the exposed trees and huge banks on the back straight where the cars are doing 300kph, we've installed some wooden picket fences there"

I think you're missing the point. PD updated the track to bring it into the modern era, not to satisfy FIA regulations.

I’m okay with the layout being changed a bit to be more modern/realistic, but I want to feel the nostalgia and frankly the whole atmosphere is sort of gone..

No, the atmosphere has been improved to build upon nostalgia - not keep it stuck in the past.

 

[TS050]

I think you're missing the point. PD updated the track to bring it into the modern era, not to satisfy FIA regulations.

He didn't miss the point. He kinda explained exactly why the track updates weren't done to satisfy FIA regs

 

[Hallitrd]

I believe there will be two versions of The Trial Mountain Circuit, the new version and then the original version. In the original version, the solution to the the final high speed chicane turn, I guess PD will have it similar as it is on the Goodwood Motor Circuit final chicane, barriers and wide low curb.
This final high speed chicane at Trial Mountain, is one of the most iconic turn in the GT series in my opinion.

Yeah there won't be.

To be more clear what I meant about the two versions.
Layout 1 - New and redesigned TM as can be seen in the trailer, with the new two final turns.
Layout 2 - New and redesigned TM as can be seen in the trailer, but with also redesigned final high speed chicane. Two barriers will be added with low wide curbs. It will be similar solution as on Goodwood Motor Circuit final chicane.

We will see.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Some very good points for and against guys. Amended the OP to include some of these points too. Thanks for keeping the discussion civil 👍

I know esports is all the rage. And for the younger fans to the franchise it's difficult to imagine a world without online gaming. Yet the first GT was designed purely as an offline game for FUN. It would be a tragedy if PD would only ever include race tracks that are FIA or Sport Mode ready in the next game, and by changing a lot of the original tracks to fit these criteria. I think a lot of people forget that a large majority of the playerbase doesn't do Sport Mode, and it's important to also have circuits that are fun to drive, even if they are slightly unrealistic, doesn't promote overtaking and/or have small pitlane capacity. Everything Gran Turismo is now, owes its existence to the very first game with only 8 fictional tracks.

In Assetto Corsa for example, Kunos includes the original Monza layout with the banking alongside the modern layout. In real life the banking is now in disarray and no one would ever race there. And yet, in a super realistic sim such as AC people still love to drive the old layout because it presents a different challenge and an opportunity to recreate nostalgic races (if not entirely new ones with modern cars). I'm not saying we don't need the new layout of Trial Mountain, but I think both the old and new layouts can coexist in the game. I mean, if PD can give us GR Supra 2019 and 2020, and 2 Clios with only a different grille, surely they can give us 2 Trial Mountains right?

Or to think another way, imagine if famous circuits lose their famous corners, or have it altered completely. Can you imagine Laguna Seca without corkscrew, Spa without Eau Rouge or Nordschleife without the Karussell? IMO, the fast final chicane is as legendary as those corners for us old players.

 

[Samus]

I think you're missing the point. PD updated the track to bring it into the modern era, not to satisfy FIA regulations.

Yes I was reiterating the fact to people who have claimed fictional tracks (This and those in GTS) were created and updated to meet FIA standards, that it certainly is not the case.

 

[PletdeKoe]

I like it

 

[Boedefeld]

but a game with only old content feels old.

A game with only good tracks and content feels good. There is absolutely nothing wrong with old content. Do we not like certain tracks in real life because they're so old?

 

[Castrol96]

Feel like Blasphemy when they changed the track.

It's good honesty, just feels weird after soo long... Still feels like I'm dreaming they showed Trial Mountain.

Tracks always change during builds, Dragon Trail is an example


Wondering how Autumn Ring, Grand Valley, Deep Forest, Apricot Hill might look if they return?

 

[VBR]

The best option would be to have both the Classic track & the updated version, like we had with Le Sarthe & Suzuka in GT5/6. They need to tart up the old lay out & throw it in the mix as well. PD are not very thoughtful when it comes to options, & do like to alienate their customer base!

 

[RacingGrandpa]

There are so many real world tracks I would want before any old fictional.
But I haven't got any history with GT prior to GTS.

 

[Magog]

I don't see what was wrong with the original Trial Mountain besides cheaters cutting the last chicane. Place some barriers. Problem solved.

 

[WhiteFlight1]

I agree the road markings are silly as it seems like it's supposed to be public roads. Remove those and add some barriers here and there and we're good.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Can you imagine Laguna Seca without corkscrew, Spa without Eau Rouge or Nordschleife without the Karussell?

All of those tracks have seen significant revision throughout their lives, even those corners have had work done and changes made...

... I think the point is, there's a number of ways PD could have handled this; alternate configurations of chicane (like the NGK at Nürburgring), two different track layouts (new and classic), and generally speaking I'd be fine with all the options... but, and maybe this is just me as a player since the start and someone who doesn't bother with sport mode, it doesn't matter that much to me that this corner has been re-profiled. More specifically, it matters less to me than the venue being re-worked to feel like a newer, more realistic feeling experience compared to racing the same Trial Mountain I did 23 years ago. I'm genuinely more excited to drive on new Trial Mountain than I would be had it just been the same as the last 6 or so generations.

That's not to say I think the new layout will be better than the old one, we'll have to see when the game lands... the bus stop at Spa is one of the worst corners in the game, I'd hate for it to feel like that... but the likes of Sainte-Croix has quite a few similar corners and actually I quite enjoy that circuit (albeit that it suffers from the typical PD "not a road but not a circuit" problem that Trial Mountain also does).