P-D, please hear my cry

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p-coletray

p-coletray

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p-coletrey
And let this suggestion fly
Straight to the developers inbox
For speed, for speee-eeeee-eed

K, nuff poetry,

Question: is there a reason that I spend a bugillion on suspension and adjustable drivetrain parts? After all my research and downloads and thred reading, I just seem to screw it up worse than factory settings, so whats the point? Most of us (vast majority) are casual gamers and garage oil-change mechanics. We can read, but not comprehend the settings all that well.(I somehow made it to lvl 24 (rhymes with fugatti)) The menus are more than slightly sucky and the 2,000 word description for each separate setting was written by a long winded english teacher.

Rant: Really, throw us a bone, give us a chance to be fast, help save menu upload, open, adjust, read again, adjust, read again, adjust, what was that setting?...scroll down, read, no wait, open, adjust, close...race, 10 minutes later... CRAP! I screwed it up worse! Repeat...Ouch my brain hurts! 3 hours later... Back to sporty suspension. Win! Doesn' t make sense!

Request: put in some recommended settings based on track, terrain, vehicle, and make a menu that looks like it belongs in 2011 From there we can learn the finer tuning a little easier. I know you know that we know that you know the algorithms, so please, help us little minded people out.
 
It would be nice in practise, to be able to pause and adjust spring rates etc. Just like other games.
 
All we really need is a practice run before the race. It´s stupid that we have championships without practice and qualifying.
 
My general tuning method is try the track in the stock settings, and then adjust accordingly. (Most obvious tip out there I guess).

I found that many race cars are set too high for my liking.
 
Read faster. I'm no motoring genius but after a little research all of the upgrade benefits became obvious. Actually that happened in GT2, by now I'm totally comfortable with most of it so it shows a little bit of practice is all it takes and you don't need a certificate in mechanical engineering.

Menus rule.
 
Iv always found this to be the fun part of GT games tbh. When you can get the settings right it can be a rewarding experience but its not for everyone so your suggestion of settings options isn't a bad idea at all.
 
I am a tad annoyed that break bias and suspension are wholly generic and just setup totally wrong for the vast majority of cars. But cars you can buy that is not a horrible deal you can take it out drive it see what needs "fixed" for your driving style.

Beyond that download some of the tune guides on the tune forum look at tunes to similar cars, mr, fr, etc, similar weight and power, you can get an idea of a decent baseline just doing that or what settings should ballpark look like.
 
haha, nice read. I understand where you're coming from. I hate reading the description for toe, camber, springs etc. so I just noted down what each one of them do and how to induce oversteer and understeer. Now hopefully I won't have to look in there everytime I want to change a few settings. Concentrate on understeer and oversteer first and when you're comfortable with those things, then you can fine tune your car for better performance.
 
Fortunately (or unfortunately), the setup options in GT5 are so simplified and generic that it really only takes a few minutes and you've pretty much got it figured out. You'll quickly get to the point where you'll buy a customizable suspension and immediately tweak a few settings and be off and running...and probably not have to change it again. (lower both ends -5, fix the toe values -10F/+10R, add a little negative camber, adjust the brake bias, and call it a day. :))

For most cars it's just a matter of some sway bar tweaks for over/understeer (or maybe some LSD adjustment), and setting the final drive gearing for a specific track. You really don't need to get much more concerned with it than that except in rare cases, or when you are up against someone who can consistently drive a car at the limit of it's setup on every lap; which is pretty rare.

IMHO... when it comes to setups in GT5, pretty close is close enough...usually.
 
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MidianGTX
Read faster. I'm no motoring genius but after a little research all of the upgrade benefits became obvious. Actually that happened in GT2, by now I'm totally comfortable with most of it so it shows a little bit of practice is all it takes and you don't need a certificate in mechanical engineering.

Menus rule.
Click to expand...

that's kinda what I'm talking about, This is my first GT, I bought a PS3 and G27 last year for dirt 2, btw which has awesome quick menu's, and feels like it was designed sometime after Windows 3.1. I get the whole purist mood of simplistic menus and we don't want to influence the holiness of the custom options of GT, but there's probably a million buyers like me that feel that we have the skills, and we'd like to be at pro level of knowledge, but downloads and reading, and studying, and again, spend hours adjusting and waiting for menu's, that's for real race car drivers, not for leisure gamers.

It just makes sense to have a built in E-Z setup button, so we can get the hang of it via experience.
 
calan_svc
Fortunately (or unfortunately), the setup options in GT5 are so simplified and generic that it really only takes a few minutes and you've pretty much got it figured out. You'll quickly get to the point where you'll buy a customizable suspension and immediately tweak a few settings and be off and running...and probably not have to change it again. (lower both ends -5, fix the toe values -10F/+10R, add a little negative camber, adjust the brake bias, and call it a day. :))

For most cars it's just a matter of some sway bar tweaks for over/understeer (or maybe some LSD adjustment), and setting the final drive gearing for a specific track. You really don't need to get much more concerned with it than that except in rare cases, or when you are up against someone who can consistently drive a car at the limit of it's setup on every lap; which is pretty rare.

IMHO... when it comes to setups in GT5, pretty close is close enough...usually.
Click to expand...

Hang on, Hang on whoaaaaa. simple is 1-7 for roll bars. not simple is double decimals for some of the other settings. If it didn't make a difference, I don't think they would make it so strangely precise.
 
calan_svc
lower both ends -5, fix the toe values -10F/+10R, add a little negative camber, adjust the brake bias, and call it a day. :)

QUOTE]

LoL the only think im not agree with you is your toe value ... if you use this setting you really dont know nothing about what it does. But for every other setting its what i do most of the time.
Click to expand...
 
p-coletray
Hang on, Hang on whoaaaaa. simple is 1-7 for roll bars. not simple is double decimals for some of the other settings. If it didn't make a difference, I don't think they would make it so strangely precise.
Click to expand...

:lol:

No, not simple is making 10 laps and then measuring inside, middle, and outside tire temperatures and adjusting camber, spring rates (in 50 lb increments), and air pressure in 1/2 PSI increments to shave .01 seconds off a lap time. (Or pulling into a pit to actually remove and re-valve a set of shocks).

Setting a spring rate slider to anything between 8 and 9 (for example) for identical results is pretty simple. :D

renagade
calan_svc
lower both ends -5, fix the toe values -10F/+10R, add a little negative camber, adjust the brake bias, and call it a day. :)
Click to expand...

LoL the only think im not agree with you is your toe value ... if you use this setting you really dont know nothing about what it does. But for every other setting its what i do most of the time.
Click to expand...

Well, I know exactly what toe does on a real race car, but as for what units PD's slider values are really in once they find their way into the physics engine, I don't have a clue...so I'll give you that one. :)

EDIT: Wait... should that have been .10 and not 10? :lol:

For a default setup, I would normally run 1/16" of toe out on the front to help with turn in, and maybe 1/16" or so of toe in on the rear to help with high speed straight line stability...and then adjust from there if needed. If tuning for max speed, set both to 0.

The values I mentioned on the sliders are just starting points that I seem to usually go with.
 
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p-coletray
...that's for real race car drivers, not for leisure gamers.
Click to expand...

To be fair that's pretty much the theme driving/racing sims are going for. There are games for people who don't want to mess around with spring rates and camber angles, and these particular devs have made one for people who do.

The easiest way is probably just to ask people on here. It might not be ideal but it'll get you going.
 
Request: put in some recommended settings based on track, terrain, vehicle, and make a menu that looks like it belongs in 2011 From there we can learn the finer tuning a little easier. I know you know that we know that you know the algorithms, so please, help us little minded people out.
Click to expand...
You already have it. It's called "sport".
I'm sorry if you can't understand the pretty easy-to-understand descriptions, and I constantly get annoyed when people appear to believe the game should be designed for diehards, but I believe if you really want to understand what the suspension settings do, you will.
FYI, Full-race suspension is generally to stiff for fully lightened vehicles, save money and just buy semi-racing, add some nice camber, that's about it.

Edit: you know you can read stock, sports, and semi-racing suspension settings, right? Base it off them.

Bottom line: You either do or don't want to tinker, if you do, you can and will, if you don't, what are you upset about?
 
calan_svc
Well, I know exactly what toe does on a real race car, but as for what units PD's slider values are really in once they find their way into the physics engine, I don't have a clue...so I'll give you that one. :)

For a default setup, I would normally run 1/16" of toe out on the front to help with turn in, and maybe 1/16" or so of toe in on the rear to help with high speed straight line stability...and then adjust from there if needed. If tuning for max speed, set both to 0.

The values I mentioned on the sliders are just starting points that I seem to usually go with.
Click to expand...

I spose my confusion lies with the concept that snow rally camber pert near full out I toasted the competition by about 3 minutes. however I can't find any camber setting that helps my 1200hp veyron corner worth beans on the flats of daytona.
 
p-coletray
...however I can't find any camber setting that helps my 1200hp veyron corner worth beans on the flats of daytona.
Click to expand...

And you aren't going to. The Veyron doesn't have a lot of front downforce and is WAY too heavy to avoid pushing like a pig in high-speed corners. You can however improve it quite a bit and get it to handle decently on technical low-G tracks, by changing the LSD and torque split values.

Here, try this setup: veyron.xls

Merry Christmas! :)
 
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p-coletray
that's kinda what I'm talking about, This is my first GT, I bought a PS3 and G27 last year for dirt 2, btw which has awesome quick menu's, and feels like it was designed sometime after Windows 3.1. I get the whole purist mood of simplistic menus and we don't want to influence the holiness of the custom options of GT, but there's probably a million buyers like me that feel that we have the skills, and we'd like to be at pro level of knowledge, but downloads and reading, and studying, and again, spend hours adjusting and waiting for menu's, that's for real race car drivers, not for leisure gamers.

It just makes sense to have a built in E-Z setup button, so we can get the hang of it via experience.
Click to expand...

I've got every GT and even now all I ever do I set the downforce at max and make sure the car won't max out by upping the max speed on the gearbox and I get on fine.
 
spiker
I think I found the OP's problem.
Click to expand...

calan_svc
And you aren't going to. The Veyron doesn't have a lot of front downforce and is WAY too heavy to avoid pushing like a pig in high-speed corners. You can however improve it quite a bit and get it to handle decently on technical low-G tracks, by changing the LSD and torque split values.

Here, try this setup: veyron.xls

Merry Christmas! :)
Click to expand...

Apparently newbies don't comprehend anything you said, but thanks for the sweet SS calan. Glad that experienced racers need a little guidance also.

And thank you PD! for putting it on the users shoulders to de-code your algorithm matrixes and distribute them when in need!
 
p-coletray
Apparently newbies don't comprehend anything you said, but thanks for the sweet SS calan. Glad that experienced racers need a little guidance also.
Click to expand...

Ehhh... you lost me there. (what does SS mean?)

Let me know how the setup works out. ;)
 
fdjizm
They should allow you save "per track" setups so you can just pick your tune for that track etc..
Click to expand...

+1 this...

In the 21st century, I got to WRITE my settings down with pen and paper for EACH car, each track once I get it dialed in? Earth to Kaz...:sly:
 
I think that I understand the OP in this way, many people don't know how to tune and they will like have more and comprehensive tune language.
Many people that run sims a long time don't have many this problem, but other's have.
It is a injustice that many devs. think that all people understant the tune language, and their meager words lead people to understand their meaning. This is a wrong posture from the devs. not only on GT5, but believe me, on FM3 is worse.

Just yesterday I was racing online with people who would like to improve the vehicle but does not understand the effects that certain adjustments can do in the car.

See the point? Not everyone must have a Phd in mechanical area. And many games fail in this area.
 
The whole point is that those of us who actually have tuned a race car in the real world can open up this tuning menu and actually do the exact same things. You want dumbed down alignment specs and a fancy/pretty menu? You might be playing the wrong game. For those who are 'casual gamers', there's a brief description that will actually educate you about some of these things - if the game just spit out recommended settings, you'd just go with those, having no clue and never learning what each setting did.

Suspension tuning can come across as a dark art, it's easy to mess it up, but it's very rewarding and worthwhile to put the effort and time in to tune the suspension properly.

Invest a little time to learn about this stuff and you may be surprised - it's not all that complicated. The fun is in learning just how each thing affects the car. You can start by looking at it in general terms of understeer and oversteer, but the reality is that say, if you want to add a bit of oversteer to a car you could stiffen the rear springs or sway bar, stiffen the rear shocks, or vice-versa soften the front, you could toe-out the rear, take a little rear camber out, alter the preload on the differential, etc - all of those things will "increase oversteer" but all in different ways, so play around with things and see how each effects the car.

On a side note, it's frustrating that the brake bias is A) unrealistic in its stock setting and B) universal for all cars
And I would also like it if we could adjust caster, but I'm overall very happy with the suspension tuning capability in the game. A flashy menu? Pretty low on the priority list.

-Ryan
 
2 pages of replies and no one is moaning about moaners, fantastic. Whine and moan and get the product you want, defend it and say nothing, you get a blank disc :)
 
I see your point and its valid. For I am a casual GT fan. I get tired of having to go back and fine tune stuff that I don't really know much about. I have been with GT since the first installment. Each game the physics improve so you can't simply do exactly as you did before. I think the option to save setups like in GT5P is perfect. If one setting is screwed not all is lost. Why they didn't repeat for GT5 is beyond me. Every track is different and every car is different.

For example, while playing F1 2010, you pretty much have to set up your car slightly different for each track. GT5 is a different racer but its still a racing simulator in which would require tweaks for each to try to get the best times possible. A setup for Nurburgring will differ from High Speed Ring for example. Take the complex strand from the earlier GT and it will differ from the Top Speed course. They need to include different levels of tuning for all levels of racers. Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, and Expert for example. Lower ends levels can give you recommendations and presets. Higher ends gives you noting and let you go at it yourself. The goal would be to have the lower level gamers work their way up to the comfort level of the more advanced racers.
 

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