Practical Suggestions for Penalty System

1,488
Portugal
Seixal
zefthebestofcour
I loved that game on ps1, that's a blast from the past. Perhaps people think they are playing Speed racer?


It was not just a game... Sven...

It was a Tv Cartoon Series that started long before you were born... And I´ve still seen the original series on TV...

Wacky Races
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wacky Races is a media franchise containing two animated series, several video games, and a comic book, all centered around the theme of various Hanna-Barbera cartoon characters primarily engaged in auto racing (although occasionally employing other means of transportation), usually in odd vehicles and with absurd plot developments. The primary characters present throughout all iterations of the series are the villains, Dick Dastardly and his anthropomorphic dog Muttley.

Television
Video games
 
2,810
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
I loved that game on ps1, that's a blast from the past. Perhaps people think they are playing Speed racer?

The real Speed Racer is a cartoon that goes wwaaaayyyy back (it was called Japanamation I think) I couldn't imagine how much more carnage there would be in GT-S if people the same gadgets as the Mach 5.
 
5,745
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
It was not just a game... Sven...

It was a Tv Cartoon Series that started long before you were born... And I´ve still seen the original series on TV...

Wacky Races
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wacky Races is a media franchise containing two animated series, several video games, and a comic book, all centered around the theme of various Hanna-Barbera cartoon characters primarily engaged in auto racing (although occasionally employing other means of transportation), usually in odd vehicles and with absurd plot developments. The primary characters present throughout all iterations of the series are the villains, Dick Dastardly and his anthropomorphic dog Muttley.

Television
Video games

Actually not that long before I was born :/
But I never saw it, grew up with the Flinstones. (reruns!)
 
60
Canada
Canada
This is not another penalty system complaint thread. Please don't suggest they scrap sport mode or something else, only practical suggestions please.

I know a lot of people blame the AI for how the penalty system works but I don't see this as an AI learning system (I don't think it is learning, maybe I'm wrong), but instead as a collection of static rules that the game follows which can be tweaked. So rather than just complaining about the penalty system maybe we can constructively come up with some ways that they could practically fix the system.

I have a a list of ONLY SIX minor tweaks to suggest that shouldn't be difficult to implement, uses tools the game already contains, and are practical to implement in a single update.

If I could change the penalty system it would be simple (in order of priority):



1. Remove the DR modifier on SR loss and penalties (I want a system that treats every driver on a grid by the same rules)

2. Increase the impact threshold for what constitutes a penalizable collision (impact should change affected drivers vector significantly)

3. In the event of a collision, assign 100% fault to the driver who:

a. brakes in a acceleration zone
b. rear ends another car in a braking zone
c. makes front end contact with the side of another car (t-bone/divebomb/ turn-ins and inside dives)
d. in the case of a multi car collision, only the first two cars to make impact in a chain event will be considered and the above rules will stand.

4. In the case of a side by side collision, equal blame is attributed to both drivers

5.Limit total SR loss in a single race to 25-30% of your total SR
(addendum: Multiply everyone's current SR by 10 and make the total possible out of 999; double the SR loss penalties and keep SR gains the same)

6. Make penalties easier to scrub (pre 1.13, I dont like stopping at the finish line, it's not better than slow cornering IMO)




That's it, I think this is all that PD has to do to make the system work, and these are all thing that don't require a sci-fi AI system in effect. Why cant this be instituted? Did I forget anything?
When you talk about hitting someone's side with the front of your car, what about when you are on the inside of another driver and they just cut across your nose? i know this has happened to you, lol. You're making a pass on the inside of a corner, lets say you have your front fender beside their rear, and of course, the guy either doesn't see you or just doesnt care that you're already beside them, and they cut across your nose, sometimes spinning themselves out off your bumper. And of course, you get a penalty for wrecking them, even though they caused it by not wanting to give their opponent an inch to race. Who should get the penalty there?

I wonder why real race drivers don't whine about the penalty system they have? Well, OK, they do when they get penalized, but nobody changes it much!

Maybe it's because the crux of the penalty system has to do with practical things that can be done on track. Hit a player from behind and pass? Return the position. This is already implemented in PC2 (maybe iRacing too, don't know about that game). You smash your way past another player, the penalty isn't a red dot, it isn't points being lost but you still get the win... It is the prompt return of position or you get a DQ.

Get a timed penalty for corner cutting? You serve it at race end, or if repeated sufficiently, you get a drive-through. This prevents incidents and accidents from players randomly slowing (with no rules about where and when, the player can game the system to his advantage). If PD refuse to adhere to real race rules, firstly, I think the FIA should withdraw their support. But maybe this could be still used if there were designated 'off the racing line' areas in which penalties could ONLY be served there (off-line on the longest straights seems about right).

Allowing players the right to slow down where and whenever they feel like it is insane!

The game already has a detection system that kicks in the Counter-steer Assist. So it already KNOWS when a car is starting to go sideways. I think that if a car DOES get sufficiently sideways (probably well past the CA kick-in point) this fact could be used to zero out any penalty imposed on the trailing car for hitting it. After all, you can't be blamed when the car in front loses it! But this data could also be used to determine whether any light contact from the car behind deserves a penalty or not. After all, if a light bump doesn't cause ANY loss of control (which would be detected by the CA mechanism), it's basically a 'racing incident' unless the trailing car passes in the next sector.

There are already a few F1 tracks with those white lines before heavy braking zones in the game. Those are used IRL to determine that, unless you have a half-car or more overlap as you cross it, you have zero apex rights. Hit the car in front in these zones, you alone get the penalty (and have to return position to the car you hit). This concept could be used invisibly at ALL heavy braking zone areas. In fact, that detection mechanism already exists in the game... The so called 'racing line display' - it clearly marks heavy braking zones in red. If more carefully worked out (it would need a fair bit of playtesting to determine the last possible safe braking point) it could be used to determine if the lead car broke too early, or the trailing car broke too late. And contact past that line could be assigned to whoever caused the issue.

I still maintain that no automated stewarding and penalty system will ever work 100%, but I believe there are existing mechanisms already in the game that are not being utilized to make a highly flawed system a bit better...
I agree with you about the FIA. At its current state its a complete joke to think of Sport mode as an FIA sanctioned e-sport.
What other FIA series has its participants trying to figure out the points and penalty systems on online forums cuz the creators of the seriea never explained it? Seriously, it took months after the game was released before i figured out how the rating, penalty, and championship points systems worked cuz PD has never publicly explained it in detail.
Bad for Mr Yamauchi
Lol

Ok, what about NASCAR short track style "bump n runs"?( when you give a guy a little bump under braking, just enough to move em off line and get by)
Personally i have no problem with being passed like that as long as i dont go off track as a result, or lose multiple positions. I also dont really feel guilty passing a guy like that (especially if they are making their rear bumper wider than Kim Kardashian's posterior) should there be penalties for that? Cuz to me i think that falls in the "no harm no foul" or "thats just racin" categories

I rather doubt the game has a system to recognize whether you could or could not avoid a car that spins in front of you (as is pretty obvious at the moment!). And, if you do contact the spinning car, that usually means you lose time anyway (so a certain degree of penalty is automatic). Naturally, the desire is to avoid the car ahead if you can, because that is the fastest option. But if you can't, you shouldn't be penalized for unavoidable contact. The desire to 'finish off' the sideways car will soon be apparent that it gives the car behind you to attack, and will probably be little used.



But at least they exist... Which is more than we can say for half of the ideas floated in these kinds of threads! Whether they can be leveraged is of course speculation. But the crux of the problem is detection, not implementation. Without that, no implementation is possible. Personally, I don't honestly think PD care (the majority of their player base is incapable of clean racing in the first place and enforcing really clean racing would lose them vast sums of money), but it's interesting to speculate on how things could get better if they did care...
Lol, hit the nail on the head man
They dont care...
If they cared they would have put more effort into revamping the system the first time, and they would have done a better job at explaining to their player base what they were doing to fix it
Actually, maybe its not that they dont care, its that they dont wanna admit how flawed the system really is.
Kazunori Yamauchi and PD have always struck me as perfectionists.
But also the kinda people that dont like to admit when they havent gotten things perfect.
But that just, like, my opinion man...

Been thinking this a while. I think the car in front (even slightly when side by side) should not be penalized after braking zone starts unless the car behind leaves track due/after contact. This way lead car should be allowed to choose its line as long as it doesnt push follower out of track. Its the following drivers responsibility to not hit the car in front while going through a corner.

People really should learn to lift off/brake early while entering braking zone behind another car. One can easily gain the lost distance by adjusting braking power to the car in front AND quite often end up getting better exit by slowing down a bit early.
That's my braking strategy, and it works, just gotta be careful when someone is behind YOU, lol. Countless times ive been following a car into a corner, i brake a little early, but lightly, and BAM, i get slammed from behind by one of the 75% of drivers who always wait til the very last second to brake. Lol, then they accuse me of brake checking after the race...
You just cant win sometimes
 
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1,719
Finland
Finland
HI-tauer
That's my braking strategy, and it works, just gotta be careful when someone is behind YOU, lol. Countless times ive been following a car into a corner, i brake a little early, but lightly, and BAM, i get slammed from behind by one of the 75% of drivers who always wait til the very last second to brake. Lol, then they accuse me of brake checking after the race...
You just cant win sometimes

So true.. People race like they are on qualifying lap. Thats the difference between raw one lap speed and race craft.

People should just few times brake early slightly and they would notice how easy it is to more than gain it back by adjusting to the braking/position of the car in front.

License test? PDI? You listening? ;)
 
1,488
Portugal
Seixal
zefthebestofcour
Actually not that long before I was born :/
But I never saw it, grew up with the Flinstones. (reruns!)


Same main "bad guys" were used for a later on animated series called "Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines"."
 
60
Canada
Canada
So true.. People race like they are on qualifying lap. Thats the difference between raw one lap speed and race craft.

People should just few times brake early slightly and they would notice how easy it is to more than gain it back by adjusting to the braking/position of the car in front.

License test? PDI? You listening? ;)
Ok, plz forgive the noob question, but what license test? PDI? Is that another way to say Polyphony?
Lmao, ive had a gtplanet account for about 3 hrs so far.
Can ya tell?

The problem is that the game has a very hard time to see the difference between a car shoving another car off, and a car bouncing off another car and driving himself off the track. I've been hit in the apex by an outside driver ignoring my car while we're alongside each other and usually get a penalty for that. 10 sec if he manages to bounce themselves off the track.

The system needs to look further than the point of impact, it doesn't seem to take the driving line and positioning of each car into account. And indeed it also needs to look at the after. No harm no foul, ie no significant speed vector change to either car, no need for time penalties. SR Down perhaps, yet not time penalties that interfere with the race.
Heres a neat thought, kinda difficult if not impossible to implement, but it would help...
Predicted trajectory
Or, where i should have been if the jerk hadn't hit me... Lol
Yea, i know
Wishful thinking
 
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1,719
Finland
Finland
HI-tauer
Ok, plz forgive the noob question, but what license test? PDI? Is that another way to say Polyphony?
Lmao, ive had a gtplanet account for about 3 hrs so far.
Can ya tell?

Yes PDI refers to Polyphony Digital. By License test i mean the tests/racing school/ what ever it is called in gt sport, where you have to pass a test to go further in game progression.

Currently only watching a video is required. :indiff: Online driving school maybe? Anyone? :D

:)
 
60
Canada
Canada
Yes PDI refers to Polyphony Digital. By License test i mean the tests/racing school/ what ever it is called in gt sport, where you have to pass a test to go further in game progression.

Currently only watching a video is required. :indiff: Online driving school maybe? Anyone? :D

:)
I startes another thread on this topic before i found this one and i mentioned just that.
Rather than two pointless 3min videos that tell you "not to look bad" it should be a playable course. More importanly, you should be able to fail it, and be required to pass to access sport mode.
And if you race like a goof and your SR tanks to the lowest level, guess what? You're suspended! And you have to re-do the course. If this happens, lets say, 3 times. 3 strikes, you're out! PERMANENT BAN FROM SPORT MODE ON THE PSN ACCOUNT IN QUESTION!!!
That'll make ppl mind their p's and q's
 
60
Canada
Canada
That's actually A good idea. :cheers:



aaand thats a bit harsh. :scared:👍:lol:
Well, maybe more than 3 chances then, lol. Plus, they can still race in single player and lobbies. Or create a new PSN account and try and not be a jerk with the new one
I mean, i was banned from GT for a week once already for circumventing the chat censorship.
And people get banned permanently from COD and a bunch of other games already
Why should GTS be any different?
 
1,719
Finland
Finland
HI-tauer
Well, maybe more than 3 chances then, lol. Plus, they can still race in single player and lobbies. Or create a new PSN account and try and not be a jerk with the new one
I mean, i was banned from GT for a week once already for circumventing the chat censorship.
And people get banned permanently from COD and a bunch of other games already
Why should GTS be any different?

Thankfully gts has the sr match making so lowlifes dont ruin all the races. :lol:
 
655
United States
United States
FluffaRaptor
When you talk about hitting someone's side with the front of your car, what about when you are on the inside of another driver and they just cut across your nose? i know this has happened to you, lol. You're making a pass on the inside of a corner, lets say you have your front fender beside their rear, and of course, the guy either doesn't see you or just doesnt care that you're already beside them, and they cut across your nose, sometimes spinning themselves out off your bumper. And of course, you get a penalty for wrecking them, even though they caused it by not wanting to give their opponent an inch to race. Who should get the penalty there?
Well technically if someone turned in on you and you are far enough behind to pit the car in front of you then it is your fault. I think that for this to be a contended corner you would need sufficient overlap, and your front bumper would have to be overlapped with at best their rear wheel which is not enough. The apex is not yours and you should yield to them. There is no advantage to spinning yourself out when on the outside so this is not a rule that would be taken advantage of. So i think the system would get it correct here.

To be clear, i dont think that time penalties should be given for this type of collision (if at all) just SR downs
 
60
Canada
Canada
Well technically if someone turned in on you and you are far enough behind to pit the car in front of you then it is your fault. I think that for this to be a contended corner you would need sufficient overlap, and your front bumper would have to be overlapped with at best their rear wheel which is not enough. The apex is not yours and you should yield to them. So the system would get it correct here.
I dunno, still seems like it just gives people license to just cut off any passing attempt you make.
Personally, when someone gets a nose inside of me, I'll give em a lane. If they really are faster than me they would get around me one way or another, and i don't like being held up behind a slower car, so i would be a hypocrite if i did that. If it turns out that I am the faster driver, I'll probably find a way past.
No sense in crowding people, that's how wrecks happen
P.S. i agree, its the time penalty that i have the problem with
 
801
United Kingdom
Planet Earth
silz616
I dunno, still seems like it just gives people license to just cut off any passing attempt you make.
Personally, when someone gets a nose inside of me, I'll give em a lane. If they really are faster than me they would get around me one way or another, and i don't like being held up behind a slower car, so i would be a hypocrite if i did that. If it turns out that I am the faster driver, I'll probably find a way past.
No sense in crowding people, that's how wrecks happen
P.S. i agree, its the time penalty that i have the problem with

First off, a front to rear bumper overlap is not enough for you to claim the corner. You are not being cut off, you are pitting the car in front.

Second, Outspacer has made the best suggestions by far on this subject which would all but do away with minor penalty infractions. This was also discussed to death some months ago when the penalties were introduced and people were complaining about them.

To expect a penalty system to be perfect, when even stewards in real racing cannot always get things right, and the fact that no other racing game has this right either, tells me it would be a waste of time and effort to try and do the impossible. Instead, utilising the current SR system to function correctly, and to everybody's expectations would solve the penalty system gripes because like minded, clean racers, who have racecraft and race with respect would be group together for matchmaking. The bump and runners, divebombers and multiple offenders would find themselves in lower SR ranks, which at the minute isn't happening.

There are changes coming to driver ratings, which I hope implement some of the suggestions mentioned.
 
2,896
Canada
Canada
Kaizen-Teian
Not about penalties but related to them.

How about an auto apology option at the end of the race? Often there isn't enough time to do it manually.

So after the race it asks you'd if you like to send a message to anyone the computer registered contact with. With defaults like - "Sorry, that was a total accident" .
 
89
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Please please please, can we have the 999 SR suggestion implemented asap?

Been playing this since late November 2017 and after just over 100 races am at mid DR B and the top of SR S.

Haven't touched any daily races for over a month as it's too easy for divebombers or rammers to just have another go immediately after ruining someone's race.

The SR is the problem IMO.

I don't see how someone with a SR of 99 can think it possible to take the first chicane at Monza at around 80mph faster than the other 19 drivers.

I suppose it's just luck of the draw at the level I'm at at the moment...particularly at Monza.

Had a great race yesterday at Dragon Trail....2nd in quali, down to 4th after first few corners and battled back to 2nd for last three quarters of the race....between 2 and 0.5 seconds behind 1st place all the way.

Didn't throw it up the inside on any corners because I knew there would be contact.

Did the Monza race after which I usually do pretty well at.
Qualified a personally disappointed 4th....bang into 1st corner from behind....14th with 4.7sec penalty in next straight and spent the rest of the race doing my best to avoid corner divebombers who can't pass cleanly on straights.

I long for clean races.

Let's have more segregation bands in the SR system.
 
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