Real Guns

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a6m5

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a6m5zero
Anyway, a friend of mine shot a hard drive with his 1911 .45 FMJ and to our surprise it only dented it, 4 shots not a single one penetrated it. My claim that the 22 could beat the 45 and penetrate it ended in a bet. I did my 4 shots (10 meters, 22lr sub sonics) and one penetrated it. :sly:
I bet (Yes, another bet) that if I had high velocity ammo all of the shots would have penetrated it since all of them were extremely close on making it through.

Also note the beautifully expanded 22lr stuck in the metal at 11'o clock. :dopey: (The hole in the middle was caused by a 12 gauge slug)
That is just too cool. Great(and super fun) experiment, Michael. 👍
Again, I'm not a gunsmith but pressure - not caused by a barrel obstruction- that is so excessive that expands the chamber and effectively welds slide and barrel together sounds a lot like overpressure to me. Anything else would have led to relatively harmless gas vent into the frame, can't think of anything else that could have caused this.
That's where I was coming from. First gunsmith was leaning toward that conclusion also. Second guy though, more experienced gunsmith, he looked really hard at the USP to find a fault with it, but he couldn't come up with anything conclusive with the gun, or the ammo. As I mentioned before, they really wanted another USP to compare mine to, but without the side-by-side comparison, it was a dead end.

I'm so sick of this whole thing, but it gets even better. I was really glad to ship off the ammo & the slide to the ammunition maker today, out of sight & out of mind....... Then the UPS carrier declined to pickup the package. Shipping department & UPS driver do not think the hazmat label supplied by the ammunition maker was adequate. I call the ammo company, again, voicemail(3 out of 3 times), so I still can't get rid of this stuff. Frustrating. :indiff:
Also the response of H&K sounds like the answer of a politician, lots of words but in the end their meaning is completely open to interpretation.
:confused:
Exactly. Quick to reply, and I appreciate that, but it's pretty clear that H&K have ZERO interest in investigating the failure, and are fully 100% motivated to shift the blame. I may be afraid of the ammunition company's products right now, but they have been very professional(other than they can't hear their phone ring lol). If they determine that it wasn't the fault of the ammunition after going over the evidence, even if I don't agree with their findings, I would believe that they were indeed professional with their investigation. Heckler & Koch on the other hand, they more than come across as the really sleazy & flaky business that will tell you anything to make you go away empty handed.

It almost feels like you finally meet your idol, and he's a total loser. :dopey:
Keep us posted!
Will do!
 

a6m5

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@a6m5 The only label it should need for shipping is ORM-D... That's what's on it when UPS delivers the ammo to your local dealer in the first place.
I believe you are right....... Except the printout label they gave me was this:

ormd_ammunition_diamond.jpg

*google search for this logo leads to this UPS page*
UPS: Shipping Ammunition.

Check this out(from the UPS link): "Print the ORM-D or Limited Quantity marking and securely affix to your package. If using the limited quantity marking, please place on package as a "square on point" or "diamond"."

🤬 It says that above diamond logo can be used in place of the "ORM-D". Oh, well. I don't trust my shipper or UPS driver on hazmat shipping rules. I guess I'm trying again Monday. :crazy:
 

Eric.

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I printed off the ORM-D label from the UPS page when I had to ship my ammo back to the manf. I dropped it off at a UPS location and luckily they didn't bother to ask what was in the box. UPS does require the ammo to be in a box within the shipping box though, and not loose enough that there could be an accidental detonation of a primer.
 

a6m5

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a6m5zero
I printed off the ORM-D label from the UPS page when I had to ship my ammo back to the manf. I dropped it off at a UPS location and luckily they didn't bother to ask what was in the box. UPS does require the ammo to be in a box within the shipping box though, and not loose enough that there could be an accidental detonation of a primer.
Oh, yeah. It was all boxed up with adequate packing.
Yep that too. Driver doesn't know what he's doing.
Sadly not exactly a shocker. :crazy:
 

phillgt2002

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After just finding out that Canada has a 5 round limit with their guns, I feel bad for any of you living there.
 

Michael88

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I thought detachable magazines were limited to 5 rounds? What happens with guns that have an internal magazine that hold more than 5 rounds? Tubular mags in lever action rifles and shotguns, internal mags of the bolt action Enfield SMLE that holds 10?
 
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I'm pretty sure that only applies to centerfire semi auto rifles (with the exception of the M1 Garand). If it's a bolt/lever/pump/straight pull or a rimfire, it's exempt. It's a bit of a trade off, no derpy import bans and having a shotgun with a barrel shorter than 18 inches is NBD as long as the overall length exceeds 26 inches, but they have the aforementioned mag restrictions, handguns must have a barrel length exceeding 4.25 inches, and the government can declare various stuff prohibited on a whim.
 
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a6m5

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So @a6m5 any updates on the USP situation?
Yes & no. Yes, I was just reading the email from the ammo manufacturer saying that they received the slide & the ammo, but they were about to have a look.

I also spoke with one of gunsmiths who looked at the gun the other day, and he was sort of telling me that if you ask the ammo company, they'll likely tell you that it was the gun, and if you ask the gun manufacturer, vice versa. Of course, I sort of expected that right away. :crazy:
 

Eric.

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Kinda surprised that I didn't experience anything like that with my situation. Why not blame the backyard gunsmithed 300 blackout pistol since it wasn't professionally assembled.
 

a6m5

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Kinda surprised that I didn't experience anything like that with my situation. Why not blame the backyard gunsmithed 300 blackout pistol since it wasn't professionally assembled.
You caught it before your gun blew up, and that probably helps. :lol: Also, with your situation, it absolutely wasn't the fault of the firearm.

In my case, two gunsmiths looked at it, and neither could definitively say that it was the gun, or the ammo. From my amateur perspective, like Michael also said, I don't see how a malfunction by the pistol could crack the case, then weld it together with the chamber & slide while blowing up the lower frame in the process. Again, at least in my mind, that makes no sense.

Thanks for asking how it's going, I'll definitely keep you guys updated. 👍
 

Swagger897

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gah..... decisions, decisions, decisions....

My dads friend has a (well 2), Mausers he's selling, and asked if I wanted one. One being a Mitchells, the other is a 1942 Russian capture. I haven't seen them personally but the picture looked like they were kept up good.

The bad thing is, I have been looking forward to getting a new camera lens, upwards of $550, but then this happened. About two or three years ago before all of the big shootings, I had Mauser fever and was looking for the best one and of course for the cheapest price. Back then, they were around 250-325 for a nice one, but then they sky rocketed after the first few shootings....

Now, I don't know what to do. 8mm ain't as cheap as 7.62x54r, which is the one I settled for, but still enjoy. I don't really like to buy them to hang them on the wall either, but this one I might put a scope on it...
 

Michael88

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You can always buy the camera lens later, it will still be available, the Mauser won't. I would not scope a Mauser, its awkward to do and it ruins a historical rifle that survived World War 2. Why awkward? First you need tall, TALL rings to clear the bolt and the rear sight assembly, so tall the cheek-weld is pretty much non-existent which is uncomfortable for target shooting. Next problem is the safety, you need to modify it to make it clear the scope. And last but not least you have to drill and tap the receiver and fit the bases (because Mauser receivers tend to vary in dimensions)

Believe me, it would be way cheaper and easier to simply buy a modern hunting rifle which run for less than 450 nowadays and scope that one. And that rig will outshoot the Mauser with widely available ammo.
They also already come with drilled and tapped receivers so you can install the bases and the rings without having to pay an expensive gunsmith.

I know a few friends who scoped Mausers, in the end they spent a lot of money and all regretted it.

So in the end there is only one reason to get a Mauser, and thats for their historical value.
Which is ruined by scoping it. So scoping a Mauser makes very little sense.
 

Swagger897

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You can always buy the camera lens later, it will still be available, the Mauser won't. I would not scope a Mauser, its awkward to do and it ruins a historical rifle that survived World War 2. Why awkward? First you need tall, TALL rings to clear the bolt and the rear sight assembly, so tall the cheek-weld is pretty much non-existent which is uncomfortable for target shooting. Next problem is the safety, you need to modify it to make it clear the scope. And last but not least you have to drill and tap the receiver and fit the bases (because Mauser receivers tend to vary in dimensions)

Believe me, it would be way cheaper and easier to simply buy a modern hunting rifle which run for less than 450 nowadays and scope that one. And that rig will outshoot the Mauser with widely available ammo.
They also already come with drilled and tapped receivers so you can install the bases and the rings without having to pay an expensive gunsmith.

I know a few friends who scoped Mausers, in the end they spent a lot of money and all regretted it.

So in the end there is only one reason to get a Mauser, and thats for their historical value.
Which is ruined by scoping it. So scoping a Mauser makes very little sense.
Yeah, I did have that in the back of my mind about the height issue, as I thought about a PE scope for my Mosin, but It's a 1925 Tula and I didn't want to mess that up really.

Monday I might be allowed to have it for the night and inspect it, and see if I'm that serious into getting it.

When my dad emailed me (because it's his co-worker's gun) do I want the real one, or the Mitchell's Mauser one, I leaned back in my chair and squeezed my head because I fell back into the search mode, and thought that I was done when I settled with the Mosin. I was like "seriously, why do you haunt me?"

Anyways, the main reason I'd like to scope it or the Mosin, is that's really the only way I can tell where it shoots. I'm total crap with the irons on my Mosin now, and I feel like if I drilled a PE on there I'd finally be able to tell where it's hitting. I dunno, thinking of what you said, yeah it might suck compared to what others think, and I've always thought that it was pretty darn high up, but it's the accuracy bit that itches my neck really...

I dunno, I dunno if I even get the thing, as ammo is almost as expensive as the gun... and the surplus I've seen looks worse than the Romanian stuff I have now for my Mosin.... Tough decisions.
 

Michael88

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I know you're going to hate this but my suggestion: don't be lazy and learn to shoot accurately with irons, its the most basic way of shooting a long gun and should be mastered before proceeding to optical sights. Practice a lot and you will get better.
When I started shooting ( I started with a Mauser K98!) I could barely hold the black out to 50 meters, but it did not take long till I could shoot 4cm groups at 100 meters.

Start with the Mosin, they have decent sights.
 

a6m5

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Sorry for the interruption, but I have a quick update on my HK USP situation, which likely is also the conclusion.

While testing by the ammunition maker didn't find anything wrong with the remainder of the ammo returned to them, they have decided to replace my gun(along with ammo returned for testing). They just ask that I return the lower frame pieces to them, and they will ship me a new USP in return. That's all I was asking for, so I am very glad & they have been very courteous & professional through the whole thing.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think the trauma will be easy to get rid of. Maybe it'll never go away. I am however getting a gun back, and both my hands are intact, so I am ready to move on as soon as the final exchange is made. I am also grateful for the support you guys have given me. 👍
 

Michael88

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Now that sounds like a happy end, glad it turned out so well for you! :cheers:
Though as mean is this may sound, I think if they found out the ammo was super faulty and dangerous they wouldn't have told you because they're afraid of bad PR and a lawsuit.
I think its very telling they want every single piece of the damaged gun and are willing to replace it no further questions asked.
 

Swagger897

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I know you're going to hate this but my suggestion: don't be lazy and learn to shoot accurately with irons, its the most basic way of shooting a long gun and should be mastered before proceeding to optical sights. Practice a lot and you will get better.
When I started shooting ( I started with a Mauser K98!) I could barely hold the black out to 50 meters, but it did not take long till I could shoot 4cm groups at 100 meters.

Start with the Mosin, they have decent sights.
My Mosin is completely off.... I know they say it's sighted for 300 meters/yards/whatever it is, and I can't even find where it hits at 50 yards consistently.. I bought one of those 400 spam cans and have gone through more than half, still don't know where it groups. I know it's somewhere on the right, but still, I have my hopes that the Mauser shoots better.

When I first started scouts and got into target shooting, I was generally competing with two of my other friends. One who is now a Marine, the other who has been hunting with his dad since he could hold a gun, and both were very good. We could all shout about moa with our own .270s, and try to hit door knobs straight down the lock with the .400s, but none of us could figure out how to fix my Mosin... I have the hood on the front and at 50 yards I have to aim at the 2 o'clock postion, on the hood, to hit the target...
 

a6m5

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Kind of weird that they're taking care of the purchase of the new one.
To be honest, I was kind of hoping they just cut me a check, so I can go shop around?(I even wondered if I should ask for another gun, but I like my USP)

I think it could be because I asked them to "replace" my gun, maybe it's their policy to keep the transaction clean & simple, but my best guess is that they pay much lower jobber rate price if they were to buy the gun versus me buying the same gun at retail. Just my guesses.
Now that sounds like a happy end, glad it turned out so well for you! :cheers:
Though as mean is this may sound, I think if they found out the ammo was super faulty and dangerous they wouldn't have told you because they're afraid of bad PR and a lawsuit.
I think its very telling they want every single piece of the damaged gun and are willing to replace it no questions asked.
First of all, thank you! :) And I don't think that's being overly critical at all, Michael. Regardless of who or what is at fault, they are all valid points. I was diplomatic, they were diplomatic, so the end was good.
 

Michael88

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@ Swagger

If the rifle is that off do a quick sight check: put the rifle on a sand bag, take out the bolt and aim the sights at a 50yds target, then look through the barrel and see if it also points at the target. If it doesn't the sights are off.

Also disassemble the gun and check the barrel for outside damage, make sure the action screws that marry the stock to the gun are tight, check the bore and give it a good thorough cleaning with a good bore cleaner, check the muzzle for damage (burrs). Check the sights, are they loose and moving under recoil?
Last but not least buy some quality ammo to make sure the ammo you running through your gun is not responsible for the bad accuracy.

And let somebody else shoot the gun and see how they hit. In my whole life I've only seen one rifle that was truly inaccurate for no obvious reason (I Still suspect it had a bent barrel). And I've seen many rifles, some as old as 130 years...
 

Crash

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I agree with what @Michael88 said and this way, the ammo manufacturer spun a potentially bad situation for them into a good PR through the small "customer goodwill" price of a new USP.

If you are really considering something else, you can sell the new USP once you receive it and potentially get more on the used market than one that's got x rounds through it already (your old one).

Glad to hear that things worked out and you're getting a new USP replacement though!
 

a6m5

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I agree with what @Michael88 said and this way, the ammo manufacturer spun a potentially bad situation for them into a good PR through the small "customer goodwill" price of a new USP.
You bet. Smart math.
If you are really considering something else, you can sell the new USP once you receive it and potentially get more on the used market than one that's got x rounds through it already (your old one).
True, and I haven't ruled that out, but I gave it some thought, and I couldn't really come up with anything I'd rather have.
Glad to hear that things worked out and you're getting a new USP replacement though!
Thank you! I keep telling myself that I'm getting a new one for a used one, trying to look on the bright side, but man, I wish my old USP was still in one piece. That gun really was a flawless piece. :indiff: It is what it is!
 

Swagger897

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@ Swagger

If the rifle is that off do a quick sight check: put the rifle on a sand bag, take out the bolt and aim the sights at a 50yds target, then look through the barrel and see if it also points at the target. If it doesn't the sights are off.
Did it. With both eyes too, and my dad checked (not sure how reliable that is though).
Also disassemble the gun and check the barrel for outside damage, make sure the action screws that marry the stock to the gun are tight, check the bore and give it a good thorough cleaning with a good bore cleaner, check the muzzle for damage (burrs). Check the sights, are they loose and moving under recoil?
Done done, and done. The first thing I did was clean the thing to look 1925 factory new. I probably got all of the goo (I forget what it's called) out from it in the barrel, and the wood. I was even considering completely overhauling the gun and Moss Pawn and Gun (used to be a pretty famous gun & pawn shop on YT but now I've lost touch with it) would check up on it.
The sights though, ever two or three shots I'll bring down the rear sight (I'm so lost on correct terminology tonight) back down to 100.. Not the cause though, as I did it once every shot.
Last but not least buy some quality ammo to make sure the ammo you running through your gun is not responsible for the bad accuracy.
Waiting on some good weather and when the range isn't full to go test it out. Lately our sportsman's club has been at maximum capacity and people have flooded the range...
And let somebody else shoot the gun and see how they hit. In my whole life I've only seen one rifle that was truly inaccurate for no obvious reason (I Still suspect it had a bent barrel). And I've seen many rifles, some as old as 130 years...
I think I mentioned it above but to reiterate, three of the best shooting friends I know have shot it, no one could get a good grouping with it on the paper... good as in, consecutive shots on the paper.
 

Eric.

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Made a few minor changes to my Glocks a few nights ago. Ordered a couple factory extended mag releases (really just the mag release for the large frame Glocks) and installed one into my G22. Sticks out way too far, I'm going to sand it down to about halfway between its length and the stock piece. I got two in case I wanted to do one for the G27 also, not sure if I will now. Also swapped in a new G22 (among many other models) trigger assembly into the G27, removing the awful "target" trigger that puts even pressure on your trigger finger.

Thank you! I keep telling myself that I'm getting a new one for a used one, trying to look on the bright side, but man, I wish my old USP was still in one piece. That gun really was a flawless piece. :indiff: It is what it is!

Your new one better be more flawless.