Realism vs. Realism and Driver Aids

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kitchenboy3
I have to admit that I am one of those drivers that still uses some of the driver aids even though they are getting dialed down more and more.
So when playing online and chatting I get a fair amount of derision and scoffing at the perceived incompetence on my part, not that it bothers me, I have big schoulders and can take a ribbing.
Anyway the message these guys are trying to convey is the following, driving the cars with driveraids is not 'real'.
Okay, fair enough, here is my question though, who in his right mind would drive their real live Ferrari or SLS or whatever with all driver aids switched off?
So, who has the more 'real' driver experience here?
 
These 'purists' annoy me. It was particularly grating on rFactor with the CDTP 2005 F1 mod where all these 'elite' drivers would wish to drive with no TCS online despite the fact the 2005 F1 cars relied heavily on TCS. I like to drive a car as it is in real life; i.e. if it has a great TCS system and ABS, I'll use it!

Just because you want to try and make the game more difficult for yourself, don't get pissy at those who want to actually make it realistic.
 
In my experience the cars are just more fun to drive without aids... Not because its more real...
 
The really high performance race cars take a lot of time and effort to learn without the driver aids and being able to drive a full lap on just about any track with them off is quite an accomplishment even more so if you can actually win a race.
 
It seems quite a few people who play GT5 see themselves as some sort of GT Sebastian Vettel and like to tell others how to drive "properly" or "real" which is quite funny since GT is certainly not real and you're correct, real cars have driving aids, the Nissan GTR has a lot of them, even F1 cars had traction control until the FIA banned it. It's just people who like to think they're wonderful because they've spent every spare minute they have getting good at a video game.
 
The really high performance race cars take a lot of time and effort to learn without the driver aids and being able to drive a full lap on just about any track with them off is quite an accomplishment even more so if you can actually win a race.

I never said it wasn't an accomplishment, i salute those that can do this (maybe one day I'll manage too), my question was which is more real
 
Personally, I don't use aids, with the exception of ABS, as I'm quicker and get much more enjoyment out of the game without them.

In real life I almost never disable the traction/stability functions on either of my cars (2008 Mondeo, 2000 911) as to drive regularly beyond the limit of grip on public roads is both stupid and dangerous.

But there should be no shame in using them in the game... you've paid good money for your copy so you should use what you need to use to enjoy the game. Full stop.

But if you can develop your ability to the point where you don't need them you will go much faster :)
 
I never said it wasn't an accomplishment, i salute those that can do this (maybe one day I'll manage too), my question was which is more real

I Know, i'm just throwing that out there for conversation. A lot of people haven't been able to touch the really high performance race cars yet.
 
Well purists should also keep their cars stock, aside from tires, and only street tires should be allowed on nurburg ring period, since your not allowed to run slicks at all. And purists should never install LSDs or adjustable suspensions, or gearboxes, some things you have to install on some cars even stock to keep them drivable wo aids.

Try an enzo with no TC or ASM...heck bought the car defaulted ASM on n-ring, when i never had it on for any other car.....first turn i found out why that was checked on.......
 
only street tires should be allowed on nurburg ring period, since your not allowed to run slicks at all.

IIRC, there's a no slicks rule on public days at the 'Ring, but you can run slicks on closed track days.

Edit...

There will be plenty of people on this forum who can manage full laps of the Ring in an Enzo on sports hard (the tyres it comes with standard) without TC/ASM/SR. A few weeks ago some of us were running on-line races at Daytona road course in a standard Vette on N3's in GT5P (equivalent to comfort soft tyres in GT5) with no aids other than ABS... and the Vette would power oversteer at 170mph on the Daytona banking :lol: If you could manage 10 laps of that under on-line pressures you'd have no problems managing the Enzo on sports tyres.

It's not about being a purist, it's about enjoying the challenge and testing your skills :)
 
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I prefer to be racing against someone who isn't being shown where to brake. No problem if someone wants other aids but it's good to get in rooms where everything is off, maybe because it keeps the crashers out.
 
IIRC, there's a no slicks rule on public days at the 'Ring, but you can run slicks on closed track days.

Yea but are not all official timings done on road tires? Cept the nissan or was it a ferrari? one of them cars that posted a fastest lap and used slicks and was widely booed for not revealing that they had used slicks to set their fastest lap.
 
Depends on what car I'm driving and on what track. Sometimes I'll want to drift a little and step the rear end out, so I'll turn TCS off. I always have ABS on 1.
But I've raced people online, beaten them by a mile, and they've had the nerve to say it was because I use aids. Losers.
 
I have kind of mixed feelings about this. In real life I allways turn the aids off when I want to have some fun. And it really, REALLY annoys the heck out of me when I am in one of those cars that have a switch to turn it off, but it still is actually on.

I regularly drive an ML500 for example and when it starts to snow here I naturally will take the car for a ride, looking for some sideways action. Absolutely impossible with this car, the off-switch does nothing but turning a little light on. I had to pull a fuse to deactivate the system.

Totally different a touareg V8 that I drive occasionally, turn it of and it is almost completely off.

What I am trying to say is that I really try to drive without aids in real life, and that goes for games as well. I actually do think that real sportsdriving and driving aids do not fit together.

Being a racedriver is about controlling the car, knowing what the car will do before it does it, finding that butter zone between sliding of the track and wasting seconds. Its not about flooring the loud pedal and letting the software sort things out. Sorry.

I can understand that you wouldn´t drive a 250.000 EUR supercar in real life without aids immediately, but this is a game.

The reason why people bitch about others using driving aids in a race, is that they put in the effort to try to control the car simply by driving it like it should be driven. People using driving aids could maybe beat them in a race simply because they don´t have to be as careful or as precise.

I mean this is a race, its all about winning. I would be bothered by coming in second place behind someone who uses traction control to be honest.
 
I prefer to be racing against someone who isn't being shown where to brake. No problem if someone wants other aids but it's good to get in rooms where everything is off, maybe because it keeps the crashers out.

I don't use racing line, but do use ASM, abs on 1, and tracktion control
 
Yea but are not all official timings done on road tires? Cept the nissan or was it a ferrari? one of them cars that posted a fastest lap and used slicks and was widely booed for not revealing that they had used slicks to set their fastest lap.

There aren't really any official times for the Ring... just a bunch of manufacturers or magazines running laps at different times under different conditions... it's not a control environment.

I'm pretty sure both the 599 FXX and Zonda R laps were set on slicks.

The fastest road car lap I believe was set by a Radical SR8... which was on road legal track day tyres... the car was driven from England to the Ring, ran its laps and then drove back to England on the same tyres.
 
But I've raced people online, beaten them by a mile, and they've had the nerve to say it was because I use aids. Losers.

Well, it depends on the car that you are racing with. When its an awd car the traction control does not really play a big role. But if it´s a high powered MR car then you acutally do have quite a big advantadge.

If I may be brutally honest, if you want to race with aids on that´s fine. Then please race against other with the aids on. But do not expect sympathy for using driving aids from people who do not use them.

As I said it takes a lot of practice and concentration to actually be fast every lap without making mistakes if you leave the aids off.
 
If I may be brutally honest, if you want to race with aids on that´s fine. Then please race against other with the aids on. But do not expect sympathy for using driving aids from people who do not use them.

Seriously, I don't get this attitude.

Without wanting to sound big headed, I'm a reasonably quick driver in GT games (GTPlanet Division 1, GT Academy 2010 UK National Finalist, can hold my own with anyone in on-line racing), and I have no issues racing people using whatever driver aids they want.

The physics model in GT games punishes people for using aids by slowing the car down... so why is it an advantage for people to use aids? You should be able to beat them easily if you're not using them.
 
There aren't really any official times for the Ring... just a bunch of manufacturers or magazines running laps at different times under different conditions... it's not a control environment.

I'm pretty sure both the 599 FXX and Zonda R laps were set on slicks.

The fastest road car lap I believe was set by a Radical SR8... which was on road legal track day tyres... the car was driven from England to the Ring, ran its laps and then drove back to England on the same tyres.

Pretty sure the big names do do theirs on closed days and nice weather even if it is not controlled.
 
I have kind of mixed feelings about this. In real life I allways turn the aids off when I want to have some fun. And it really, REALLY annoys the heck out of me when I am in one of those cars that have a switch to turn it off, but it still is actually on.

I regularly drive an ML500 for example and when it starts to snow here I naturally will take the car for a ride, looking for some sideways action. Absolutely impossible with this car, the off-switch does nothing but turning a little light on. I had to pull a fuse to deactivate the system.

Totally different a touareg V8 that I drive occasionally, turn it of and it is almost completely off.

What I am trying to say is that I really try to drive without aids in real life, and that goes for games as well. I actually do think that real sportsdriving and driving aids do not fit together.

Being a racedriver is about controlling the car, knowing what the car will do before it does it, finding that butter zone between sliding of the track and wasting seconds. Its not about flooring the loud pedal and letting the software sort things out. Sorry.

I can understand that you wouldn´t drive a 250.000 EUR supercar in real life without aids immediately, but this is a game.

The reason why people bitch about others using driving aids in a race, is that they put in the effort to try to control the car simply by driving it like it should be driven. People using driving aids could maybe beat them in a race simply because they don´t have to be as careful or as precise.

I mean this is a race, its all about winning. I would be bothered by coming in second place behind someone who uses traction control to be honest.

So what you're saying is that people who have paid good money to buy this game and don't spend 5+ hours a day playing it shouldn't be allowed to race online because it upsets the GT elite when they lose?

Incidently I usually put all aids off but it sure as hell wouldn't bother me if I got beat by someone who feels they need a helping hand to compete. After all GT is only a video game and they've hardly robbed me of a place on the podium spraying champagne and waving to my adoring fans!
 
I drive a lot of cars with the driving aids off, i progressed from GT4 into playing PC sims like Rfactor/GTR2 and iRacing, so i have become used to it.

However, some cars in GT5 are extremely difficult to drive, with a lack of any balance and stability under braking, in the real racing world those cars would be fixed with setup, as no driver wants to drive a car he has no confidence in. Those cars often need to be tamed via driving aids in order to be fast. Think of it as a fault with the game in some cases, there are cars that are more difficult to drive than real life, and in order to make them more stable you can turn on the driving aids.


Setting TC/ABS to 1 and Active to Mild can fix almost everything. The other active control (on/off) however should be left off, it seriously slows down the cars, it just isnt worth it.
 
I really don't get the elitists. If you drive without aids, good on you, but don't act like you're better than everybody else because of it.
 
Well now, seems i have opened a can of worms here.
I am a bit surprised at the animosity between the do's and dont's.
As I've said i do admire the patience and dedication to be able to drive without aids, personally I don't have the time to develop to a stage yet where I can drive like that, so, when I am in a room where everything is off I leave again, not because i'm worried about losing but I don't want to keep spinning into the path of those more accomplished then me.
Having said that, I also don't think it is fair that I should be abused for needing someone to hold my hand so to speak.
 
Well now, seems i have opened a can of worms here.
I am a bit surprised at the animosity between the do's and dont's.
As I've said i do admire the patience and dedication to be able to drive without aids, personally I don't have the time to develop to a stage yet where I can drive like that, so, when I am in a room where everything is off I leave again, not because i'm worried about losing but I don't want to keep spinning into the path of those more accomplished then me.
Having said that, I also don't think it is fair that I should be abused for needing someone to hold my hand so to speak.

Seriously, don't take any notice.

There will always be someone claiming they play the game more realistically because they use no aids/no ABS/cockpit view only/clutch and shifter/full racing suit etc etc etc... it really doesn't matter one iota how you play the game as long as you enjoy it... and you race clean on-line ;)
 
So what you're saying is that people who have paid good money to buy this game and don't spend 5+ hours a day playing it shouldn't be allowed to race online because it upsets the GT elite when they lose?

Incidently I usually put all aids off but it sure as hell wouldn't bother me if I got beat by someone who feels they need a helping hand to compete. After all GT is only a video game and they've hardly robbed me of a place on the podium spraying champagne and waving to my adoring fans!

Now don´t be silly. I couldn´t check out the online mode of gt5 yet, since I don´t have internet in my new apartment yet (which sucks hard actually). But I assume that you can set certain rules for a race that you create like in every other racing game/sim?

If that is the case then I assume that there are races that allow aids, and some that don´t.

you can race against all the others that use aids as well, and imo this is the majority of racers out there.

I personally do not want to race against drivers that use driving aids because it makes the fact of beating them or get beaten kind of useless. Compare it to doping if you will. I am proud of the fact that I can race car x on track y with pretty quick times consistently. I know that it would be easier with traction control, since I wouldn´t have to be as careful with the throttle. But I choose not to because I like the challenge of taming the car and learning to drive it.

Now if I race against people that did the same thing and they beat me, than I am perfectly fine with it and congratulate them. Maybe chatting with them after the race quickly about driving lines and braking points in order to find that extra 0.3 of a second. We share one mindset, we take simracing and motorsports in general seriously.

Now using driving aids is making the game easy enough for you to handle, this is a completely different mindset. You want to race with a murc, and because you think its to hard without the aids you just turn them on. Ok, I get that.

But I race these BECAUSE they are hard. I like to learn to drive them and to learn to anticipate its movements. And I personally want to measure myself against others that do the same.

And someone mentioned that Driving aids actually make you slower in GT5. Well for some special circumstances this may be true. But if you race with abs alone, you do have an advantadge. Include traction control and you do have a big advantadge. The point is not necessarily that your laptimes get faster, but that your mistakes do not translate to a slower lap.

You can´t oversteer a bit in that tricky corner in lap 5, because you got on the throttle a tiny bit too early, because the traction control prevents wheelspin.

If you drive without aids, you allways have to stay sharp. It´s a different ballgame. And I prefer racing against people who take their racing as serious as I do.
 
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Seriously, don't take any notice.

There will always be someone claiming they play the game more realistically because they use no aids/no ABS/cockpit view only/clutch and shifter/full racing suit etc etc etc... it really doesn't matter one iota how you play the game as long as you enjoy it... and you race clean on-line ;)

I do enjoy the game and no one will spoil it for me, and as a point of pride I DO race clean. I would rather be a clean 3rd than a dirty 1st.
I spend about 1/2 hour before each session with the aids off, just practising accelerator and brake control etc. and I am getting better at it.
:)👍
 
... if you race with abs alone, you do have an advantadge. Include traction control and you do have a big advantadge. The point is not necessarily that your laptimes get faster, but that your mistakes do not translate to a slower lap.

Sorry, but this is absolutely NOT true.

If you have GT5P, go check out the on-line TT leaderboards and find any top 10 time in any car/track combination that uses any aids other than ABS. In fact find me more than a handful of laps across the top 50 times on all of the leaderboards... don't waste you time, you won't find them BTW.

For anyone who can drive adequately without it, putting traction control on will make you slower. Using ASM will make you slower still.

There is no advantage to use aids beyond saving big mistakes... if you jump on the gas with TC on it might stop you spinning, but it kills so much power that you lose masses of time.
 
I really don't get the elitists. If you drive without aids, good on you, but don't act like you're better than everybody else because of it.

Well, now why do you say that? Where did anybody say anything about being better. It doesn´t make anybody a better person if they drive a game on a console with certain settings or not.

This is about a game and how people like to play it. It´s like a rugby team playing against an american football team. I am sure the rugby players would be bothered if they lost, and maybe point out that the football players had some hardware related advantadges.

All I ask that rugby teams should play against rugby teams, and football teams should play against football teams. I do not say rugby is better than football or vice versa. I say to each his own.
 
Sorry, but this is absolutely NOT true.

If you have GT5P, go check out the on-line TT leaderboards and find any top 10 time in any car/track combination that uses any aids other than ABS. In fact find me more than a handful of laps across the top 50 times on all of the leaderboards... don't waste you time, you won't find them BTW.

For anyone who can drive adequately without it, putting traction control on will make you slower. Using ASM will make you slower still.

There is no advantage to use aids beyond saving big mistakes... if you jump on the gas with TC on it might stop you spinning, but it kills so much power that you lose masses of time.

First of all you have to read my post to the end. I said this: "The point is not necessarily that your laptimes get faster, but that your mistakes do not translate to a slower lap."

Second of all, I think the majority of players at the top obviously are hardcore racers, and most of the hardcore racers tend to turn all aids off. Therefore you do not find much aid-users at the top. Pretty logical if you think about it.
 
Well, now why do you say that? Where did anybody say anything about being better. It doesn´t make anybody a better person if they drive a game on a console with certain settings or not.

This is about a game and how people like to play it. It´s like a rugby team playing against an american football team. I am sure the rugby players would be bothered if they lost, and maybe point out that the football players had some hardware related advantadges.

All I ask that rugby teams should play against rugby teams, and football teams should play against football teams. I do not say rugby is better than football or vice versa. I say to each his own.

LoL, Rugby is better than Football, it's mano a mano , no body armour:tup:
 
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