Scottish Independence

Do you support Scotland's independence?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 45.7%
  • No

    Votes: 10 28.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 5 14.3%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 4 11.4%

  • Total voters
    35
1,459
United States
USA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence

"The principle of self-determination: the people who live in Scotland, who are the most invested in the future of Scotland, will be making decisions for Scotland themselves.
The Additional Member System employed for elections to the Scottish Parliament is more democratic than the electoral system used for the House of Commons, so the Scottish electorate would be empowered.
Control over defence and foreign policy means Scotland can choose, for example, to no longer have nuclear weapons in its seas or no longer be part of NATO.
Access to North Sea oil and "vast offshore renewable energy" revenue means greater funding for the Scottish Government. In the 1970s, a slogan used for the oil argument was It's Scotland's oil.
It could instigate a "cultural dawn" for Scotland. This has been emphasised by creative pro-independence groups like National Collective."

This thread has anything to do with Scottish independence, supporting it or not, etc.
 
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You need to check your sources again. They're not "planning on becoming an independent state" on that date; they're holding a non-binding referendum which has no legal standing, that's all.
 
Scotland is planning on becoming an independent state on September 18th, 2014.
To be more accurate, Scotland will hold a referendum on independence in 2014 - but even if the Scottish people vote in favour of independence, which is by no means certain, it will take many years for Scotland to become fully independent... and it is not even clear what 'fully independent' means at this point, especially in the context of closer European integration. A yes vote is no guarantee that Scotland will become independent, either.

The main goal of the pro-Independence campaign is the repatriation of sovereign powers to Scotland from Westminster (London). Another major pro-Independence issue is for Scotland to be full members of the EU in our own right. In my view, however, these two central aims of the pro-Independence movement are directly opposed - we're being promised full sovereignty and membership of an economic bloc that requires its members to cede sovereignty... maybe I'm wrong, but this seems like a rather large sticking point to me.

I've yet to be convinced by the pro-Independence campaign, as they are quick to point out the benefits of independence, but less clear about highlighting the potential losses. The repatriation of sovereign powers and the promise of untold riches from North Sea oil and gas are both very attractive - but the former is uncertain given the current structure and operation of the EU/eurozone, and the latter is not entirely certain either.
 
I hope they stay, but it's for the Scots to decide. The Yes/No element is very direct; the most amicable solution, to me, is to renegotiate terms of the union.

Should Scotland go the way of the Irish republic, there are several things which haven't been sorted as of yet. Or, I myself haven't yet heard anything about...

Border control, currency, Trident, Schengen, EU, NATO, roads, motorways, railways, railway franchising, airspace, student visas, embassies, expatriation, extradition, law, gaols, existing statutes including Scotland, crown assests in Scotland, the SFA's position on the International Football Association committee, maritime borders, armies and taxation.

Now, some of those issues are trivial on a political scale, I grant you, but they all do need sorting out if or when it came to independence. I'd be interested to know how those would be remedied.

And TM's point about the possibility of simply transferring sovereignty from London to Brussels/Den Haag/Strasbourg is well worth highlighting and repeating.
 
Yes, but apart from border control, currency, Trident, Schengen, EU, NATO, roads, motorways, railways, railway franchising, airspace, student visas, embassies, expatriation, extradition, law, gaols, maritime borders, armies and taxation..., WHAT has the UK ever done for us??

[/Python]


In all seriousness, independence is possibly going to be a messy, expensive, protacted and acrimonious separation and what might appear trivial could really just mean 'taken for granted' - it will get interesting only after the referendum, as there are many, many issues that might derail any independence movement regardless of what the outcome of the popular vote might be.
 
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Yeah, for example the Queen has to rubber stamp all of these kinds of things.

She could theoretically have the Scotland Act 2017 on her desk, wipe her arse with it and just say, "...nah."
 
Less than a month to go to the vote...

It brasses me off slightly that my workmates - who are all foreign nationals living in Scotland, some for less than a year - are allowed to vote in the referendum. My boss seems to think that two of them are ineligible on the basis that they have been living here for less than a year, but I can't find anything that says that is the case. Fortunately, two of my three workmates (one EU national, one Commonwealth) have stated that they will not vote even if they are eligible, which I think is a very responsible attitude to have. Another EU workmate, however, who definitely is eligible to vote, has stated that they do intend to vote, despite the fact that they are extremely unlikely to stay in Scotland beyond the end of their degree. It seems crazy to me that I would not be able to vote if I were currently still working in London, and yet a German student can vote.
 
I agree it is ridiculous that people living in Scotland for 5 mins can vote yet Scot's born and raised but yet happen to not be in Scotland at the moment cannot.
 
I agree it is ridiculous that people living in Scotland for 5 mins can vote yet Scot's born and raised but yet happen to not be in Scotland at the moment cannot.
Think of what the country would be like after it gained independence. Would you be allowed to vote in the parliamentary elections if you were a resident immigrant? What about if you were a non-resident emigrant?
 
Less than a month to go to the vote...

It brasses me off slightly that my workmates - who are all foreign nationals living in Scotland, some for less than a year - are allowed to vote in the referendum. My boss seems to think that two of them are ineligible on the basis that they have been living here for less than a year, but I can't find anything that says that is the case. Fortunately, two of my three workmates (one EU national, one Commonwealth) have stated that they will not vote even if they are eligible, which I think is a very responsible attitude to have. Another EU workmate, however, who definitely is eligible to vote, has stated that they do intend to vote, despite the fact that they are extremely unlikely to stay in Scotland beyond the end of their degree. It seems crazy to me that I would not be able to vote if I were currently still working in London, and yet a German student can vote.

I heard the other day of English friends whose address is in Scotland but who are working abroad (ie back in England) who have got a postal vote. I find that a little wrong, you should be IN Scotland and present yourself at a polling station, in my opinion.

It's hard to think of a working criterion other than currently-has-a-Scottish-address though, the idea was agreed to very quickly (iirc) presumably on those grounds. And stopping Sean Connery from turning up.

@Famine, that's a tough question, there would be a Scottish passport but that's not mandatory. Subjects can still carry ze German's passport.

I expect it would be a real mess, to be honest.
 
Think of what the country would be like after it gained independence. Would you be allowed to vote in the parliamentary elections if you were a resident immigrant? What about if you were a non-resident emigrant?

Like Irish citizens in the United Kingdom can vote in British general elections but not the other way around?
 
Like Irish citizens in the United Kingdom can vote in British general elections but not the other way around?

I didn't realise that. Personally I think if you're a legally-resident tax-payer in a country then you should be able to vote there.

Yeah, for example the Queen has to rubber stamp all of these kinds of things.

She could theoretically have the Scotland Act 2017 on her desk, wipe her arse with it and just say, "...nah."

Interesting, that could prompt a dissolution which the monarch should only do to protect the constitution. Black Rod was let in to our Commons under duress in June and the MPs followed him back to his Queen under equal duress. In return for our time she agrees informally to uphold any non-Constitutionally-adpative vote in the Houses, both her own and our Commons.

The last time Royal Assent was refused was Queen Anne (Scots Militia?) in 1707, but King Billy did dissolve a parliament in 1834 due to unconstitutional practice therewithin.

I'm pretty sure that Ze German would have a difficult time arguing that a public vote for independence was unconstitutional therefore I'm not sure she'd have grounds to withold Royal Assent. If she did, hmmm, I think that a lot of people would push for a British Republic very quickly. Of course, some people LIKE their laws and constitution being in the hands of one of the weirdest, richest families in the world. Hey ho.
 
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It's a really difficult topic of conversation in work with me.

I work with a lot of Scottish people, and as UK nationals they work without limitation. But if Scotland becomes independent they may have to make a choice, take Welsh/English citizenship or work with limitations. They all live outside Scotland, but many make frequent visits home to see family, including to the Orkney isles. And yet they have no vote on it.

It'll also create a load of paperwork :grumpy:
 
I wouldn't say the paperwork for travel between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the UK would be so onerous, as before Ireland and the UK entered the EU (then the EEC) they had a common travel agreement, and limits were only put in place during World War II, when Ireland was neutral while Britain was on the Allied side, and even then it was just passport controls between the two countries and a ban on British soldiers wearing their uniforms while in the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland).
 
DK
I wouldn't say the paperwork for travel between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the UK would be so onerous, as before Ireland and the UK entered the EU (then the EEC) they had a common travel agreement, and limits were only put in place during World War II, when Ireland was neutral while Britain was on the Allied side, and even then it was just passport controls between the two countries and a ban on British soldiers wearing their uniforms while in the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland).
The movement of tourists and businessmen isn't such a concern. But the movement of engineers, technical information and controlled goods is more of an issue.
 
Good point, I doubt that prior to 1973 there was much technical information being exchanged between Ireland and the UK, and the movement of engineers would have probably been almost exclusively from Ireland to the UK.
 
I bumped into two Scots in a bar the other day, they said that Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland they're so remote. Possibly more tongue in cheek than serious, but a point I did think about a lot, for some reason.
 
DK
Good point, I doubt that prior to 1973 there was much technical information being exchanged between Ireland and the UK, and the movement of engineers would have probably been almost exclusively from Ireland to the UK.

Today I worked in Portsmouth, Cork, Dublin and Manchester. It was a lot of fun, but damn WHAT are people from Cork saying? :D
 
I bumped into two Scots in a bar the other day, they said that Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland they're so remote. Possibly more tongue in cheek than serious, but a point I did think about a lot, for some reason.

It's unlikely, but it's a serious issue...

There is infact a petition at the Scottish Government about giving the Islands a referendum in the event of a Yes vote to establish whether or not the Islands wish to remain part of the UK, go independent as part of Scotland, or even to become independent in their own right. But there is likely going to be no referendum on that any time soon.

But, some 50% of all North Sea oil comes from Shetland's waters, and 90% of all UK oil is North Sea oil. That means that Shetland could have a potentially massive effect, depending on what Shetlanders want to do. But it is highly debatable that Shetlanders 'own' that oil (or at least the right to the tax revenue) - giving that Shetland only has a population of 23,000, it seems ridiculous that they could lay claim to some 45% of all the oil in the UK, which in turn is something like 30% of all the oil in Europe.

Unfortunately for the Scottish nationalists, Shetland and Orkney could employ the exact same logic as they have in demanding a referendum of their own, and the claim that all North Sea oil belongs to Scotland and its population of 5 million. Tell a Scottish nationalist that it might not be as straightforward as that, however, and they'll likely get very angry very quickly.
 
@Dotini I'd be interested to hear why you are in favour of Scottish independence...

Support for independence is gathering pace, and with the vote now just two weeks away, I reckon it is going to be alot closer than the polls have generally suggested thus far.

There is little doubt that the Yes campaign has been far better organised and has engaged the public far better than the Better Together campaign. The simple fact is, the No campaign is (by all definitions) a negative campaign - and the Yes campaign have repeatedly used this fact to their (strong) advantage lately. But it is not hard to see why so many people (still estimated to be around 55%) are inclined to agree that the risks of independence outweigh the potential gains.

I'd like to hear from more people on this subject - particularly those in England and Wales for whom Scottish independence may not have registered yet as being a particularly important subject... my personal feeling is that a Yes vote will almost certainly have massive repercussions for the rest of the UK.
 
@Dotini I'd be interested to hear why you are in favour of Scottish independence...

Well golly gee-whiz, TM, thanks for your interest in my reasons. :embarrassed: I can assure you they're highly idiosyncratic, based on zero personal experience in Scotland or England, and nobody actually involved should take them too seriously. :D

- Scotland is a distinctive and unique nation with its own rich history, geography, speech and all that is necessary for its own identity and success as an independent nation. There is no doubt in my mind that rip-roaring success lies down the path of independence. Scotland is qualified and deserving.

- This is a fabulous chance to make a small but highly symbolic break with England and the UK. From the time of the Norman Conquest until Queen Victoria, Great Britain has been associated with virtually unqualified success in exploration, warfare, science, industry, arts, everything imaginable. Since then, a series of disasters, blunders and pratfalls like the Sykes-Picot treaty, B.R.M racing cars and Tony Blair have let the air out of the balloon. Scotland is better off unloading the tainted luggage of empire.

- The odds are still against a yes vote. Being a hopeless infracaninophile, naturally I'm for the Scottish underdog. :lol:
 
Well golly gee-whiz, TM, thanks for your interest in my reasons. :embarrassed: I can assure you they're highly idiosyncratic, based on zero personal experience in Scotland or England, and nobody actually involved should take them too seriously. :D
Thanks for sharing your opinions 👍

I totally agree that Scotland is a distinctive and unique nation, and I also think that many people (just under half the population) here in Scotland would like nothing more than to make the symbolic break from the UK and unload the baggage of empire etc.. At the risk of making a serious point about this, however, the reality is that it is not a small thing for us at all - it could be ruinous, depending on what form an independent Scotland might take. That seems like a very high price to pay for a 'symbolic' gesture.

Scotland is qualified
It's about time we qualified for something.

edit: On a more serious note, a high-level colleague of mine was at a meeting this morning where it was (allegedly) announced that one of the UK's main funding councils (by which I am currently funded myself) is suspending all capital equipment funding to Scotland until after the referendum outcome is known.
 
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edit: On a more serious note, a high-level colleague of mine was at a meeting this morning where it was (allegedly) announced that one of the UK's main funding councils (by which I am currently funded myself) is suspending all capital equipment funding to Scotland until after the referendum outcome is known.

The Game of Thrones is not for kids.
 
Personally, I think Scotland would be far worse off as an independent nation. Beyond the numerous complexities that rejoining the European Union would hold for them (Joining Schengen, adopting the Euro, etc.), there's also the fact that as a tiny nation they'd have very little international standing, whereas currently Scotland effectively receives preferential treatment (relative to its size) in relation to the rest of the UK when it comes to the UKs international dealings.

There's also the fact that the Scottish Nationalists all seem to be completely in over their heads in regards to their beliefs as to what Scotland would somehow be able to achieve if it became independent of the UK. Rejoining the EU and keeping the Pound would most likely not be possible, for example, and yet the Scots seem insistent that they will be able to this in the result of a yes vote leading to independence. As a result, I lack confidence in said individuals ability to manage international affairs as an independent nation.

Finally, there is the fact that Scottish Independence would suely result in the full name of the UK becoming The United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, which would be extremely hard to fit on forms.
 
I generally don't support Scottish independence for many of the reasons TM listed. Scotland and the rest of the UK are so closely bound together that independence would be very hard to achieve at all, let alone with any sort of ease. I think that the issues that would arise from Scottish independence would be too big to handle.

I will say that I support the right of the Scottish to determine their own fate, and I'll support the whatever result the referendum yields, whether I agree with it or not. Scotland is very much it's own entity, culturally speaking, and if the Scottish feel that they would rather try and be a separate nation, then I'm okay with that. I'd be very interested to see if they can actually make independence happen, though.
 
Scottish independence can't go any worse than Irish independence. We simply swapped the yoke of Westminster for the much tighter one of the Vatican, I doubt the Scots would be so willing to roll over!

I'd be on the fence when it comes to independence, as the risks are considerable, and it would be a huge step into the unknown for both Scotland and rUK.
 
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