Sexual Harassment

I thought this thread was going to be point towards another thread that is full of proving shenanigans of shenanigans.
 
So is this thread intended to be a discussion of sexual harassment, or a discussion of why the subject hasn't had its own thread despite popping up occasionally in other threads? At this point I'm somewhat confused. Or is it to be a discussion of sexual harassment allegations and accusations? Because the mere allegation can destroy lives even if a total fabrication.
 
And there's a whole bunch of films now that won't be on television ever again, including American Beauty, The Usual Suspects and Se7en.
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I think this borders on ridiculous to be honest.

I'm glad that I have the ability to differentiate the art from the artist.

Mel Gibson, Michael Richards, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Louis C.K., Charlie Rose, Ben Affleck, Richard Dreyfuss, Dustin Hoffman, Steven Seagal, Jeremy Piven, Tom Sizemore, Sylvester Stallone and George Takei.

Hollywood names that I found in only five minutes of googling that are being accused of various acts of harrasment. I assume their movies and sitcoms are still being aired, so why not also Spacey's?

I will continue to watch their body of work, including Spacey's, as their motion pictures and/or stand-up acts has nothing to do with what they're being accused of.

If television channels, news outlets and streaming media like Netflix are to be consistent in this banning of certain artists work then the screens will all go black twenty-four hours per day in a year or two for there will be nothing left to air. Exaggerating a bit of course.

So many people probably have skeletons in their closets, so many people should be innocent until proven guilty but in these times we live in many people are immediately considered guilty and all it takes is a headline on CNN or FOX.

The world's a twisted place and Hollywood apparently even more so, who knows who did what. The real victims who are telling the absolute truth with no agenda behind it should hopefully be vindicated in the end. All I know is I won't allow other people or corporations to censor works of art from me and tell me what I should or shouldn't watch.
 
JockeP22
I assume their movies and sitcoms are still being aired, so why not also Spacey's?
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Indeed - and worse, in Spacey's case, is that the entire production of House of Cards is now cancelled, along with the termination of all of the associated jobs, from acting through to making the tea.

Because of an allegation (well, several), without conviction or even prosecution.

In Louis CK's case, the allegations came on the opening night of his new film, which was pulled without ever being shown as a result.
 
JockeP22
I think this borders on ridiculous to be honest.

I'm glad that I have the ability to differentiate the art from the artist.

Mel Gibson, Michael Richards, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Louis C.K., Charlie Rose, Ben Affleck, Richard Dreyfuss, Dustin Hoffman, Steven Seagal, Jeremy Piven, Tom Sizemore, Sylvester Stallone and George Takei.

Hollywood names that I found in only five minutes of googling that are being accused of various acts of harrasment. I assume their movies and sitcoms are still being aired, so why not also Spacey's?

I will continue to watch their body of work, including Spacey's, as their motion pictures and/or stand-up acts has nothing to do with what they're being accused of.

If television channels, news outlets and streaming media like Netflix are to be consistent in this banning of certain artists work then the screens will all go black twenty-four hours per day in a year or two for there will be nothing left to air. Exaggerating a bit of course.

So many people probably have skeletons in their closets, so many people should be innocent until proven guilty but in these times we live in many people are immediately considered guilty and all it takes is a headline on CNN or FOX.

The world's a twisted place and Hollywood apparently even more so, who knows who did what. The real victims who are telling the absolute truth with no agenda behind it should hopefully be vindicated in the end. All I know is I won't allow other people or corporations to censor works of art from me and tell me what I should or shouldn't watch.
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We are now in age of political correctness and it would be politically incorrect to separate the artist from the art. I'm sure some will test the waters but many organizations or networks are going to be wary of being associated or in any way tainted by a relationship to a blacklisted artist, lest they be painted with the same brush. No one wants to be the subject of a social media blackballing from which they may not recover. Kind of reminds me of McCarthyism in a way.
 
Johnnypenso
We are now in age of political correctness and it would be politically incorrect to separate the artist from the art.
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I agree with the rest of what you say but I don't think an unwillingness to separate somebody's work from themselves is necessarily a political correctness.

On that note... there are hardly any full-length Top of The Pops rescreenings in the UK thanks to the questionable proclivities of many of the hosts back in the day.
 
WhoosierGirl
I think I have made it clear why I asked what I asked, you can believe me or not. You can think my question is "uppity" or I'm "goading for a challenge" but, you would be wrong and I don't think I could change your mind, and that is fine with me. I am a very curious person and the reason's why a subject may or may not be of interest to people sometimes interests me more than the actual subject.
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Why can't you change my mind, this is based on the premise, rather than simply setting up the thread and having engaging conversation come about it from something you initiated, you went a different way. Now if you are simply asking a question rather than trying to make a point then sure you've changed my mind. However, I'm basing this off things I've seen you say on some of the other threads in this sub forum that give me the slight idea you were perhaps annoyed or disturbed by it not being a subject of discussion.

Outside of that I did give you reasons for why it probably didn't get made, which were to answer your question on the basis it was simple curiosity.

BobK
So is this thread intended to be a discussion of sexual harassment, or a discussion of why the subject hasn't had its own thread despite popping up occasionally in other threads? At this point I'm somewhat confused. Or is it to be a discussion of sexual harassment allegations and accusations? Because the mere allegation can destroy lives even if a total fabrication.
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Same and why I posed my initial post the way I did. It came across as "hey I expected this subject to be talked about, but I'm shocked it's not and find it strange the community hasn't. What's the problem?"

The OP has since said she wasn't aiming for that and more so simply asking a general question of why.
 
Personally, I don't speak up regarding this issue for kind of two main reasons.

1. I'm confused as hell.

Can someone explain to me the difference between harassment, and sexual harassment?

When does harassment become sexual? Who decides when it becomes sexual? Why is sexual harassment so much worse than non-sexual harassment?



Slightly different aspect of this overall issue, but it's an aspect of "rape culture" that I'm confused as hell about, so humour me with this.....is kissing someone without their consent sexual harassment? Is it rape?


2. With the way the "PC Left" and 3rd wave feminism has been acting lately, I'm actually slightly scared to speak out on the issue, on certain platforms. I don't at all condone rape, I don't condone harassment. But I also don't feel like I live in a "rape culture perpetuated by the patriarchy." It feels that unless I grab a rainbow flag and start running through the streets yelling "Down with the Patriarchy!!!!" I'll be labelled a he-man woman hater, amongst other "ists" and "phobes".
 
twitcher
2. With the way the "PC Left" and 3rd wave feminism has been acting lately, I'm actually slightly scared to speak out on the issue, on certain platforms. I don't at all condone rape, I don't condone harassment. But I also don't feel like I live in a "rape culture perpetuated by the patriarchy." It feels that unless I grab a rainbow flag and start running through the streets yelling "Down with the Patriarchy!!!!" I'll be labelled a he-man woman hater, amongst other "ists" and "phobes".
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We do live in a culture that's been shaped in law, doctrine and authorised history by privileged, elderly white males. That's one of the reasons that we're genuinely able to say "that was acceptable then". To all intents and purposes it's been a highly selective patriarchy. The bit in bold is the sensible stance along with having a fair system which everybody agrees on (not just the Oxbridge bar members) that gives everybody a chance to make a complaint and have it judged without fear or favour.

twitcher
is kissing someone without their consent sexual harassment? Is it rape?
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It would have to be a hell of a kiss for one's johnson to make a play. It's not rape. The circumstances/manner of the kiss would make the difference to whether it was an assault or not, I would think that there would need to be a number of persistent acts for harassment to occur.
 
twitcher
Personally, I don't speak up regarding this issue for kind of two main reasons.

1. I'm confused as hell.

Can someone explain to me the difference between harassment, and sexual harassment?

When does harassment become sexual? Who decides when it becomes sexual? Why is sexual harassment so much worse than non-sexual harassment?
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The word "harassment" has a very different meaning legally vs. common usage. I once charged my wife's ex with harassment, and they were ultimately convicted, because they filled up my company answering machine with drunken messages and prevented my customers from leaving messages. When you add a sexual element to it there could be a broad range of activities that are considered sexual harassment and some might be a 4th degree misdemeanor and some might be rape, depending on the legal definition. It's confusing to use the same term for such a wide range of illegal activities.
 
TenEightyOne
We do live in a culture that's been shaped in law, doctrine and authorised history by privileged, elderly white males. That's one of the reasons that we're genuinely able to say "that was acceptable then". To all intents and purposes it's been a highly selective patriarchy. The bit in bold is the sensible stance along with having a fair system which everybody agrees on (not just the Oxbridge bar members) that gives everybody a chance to make a complaint and have it judged without fear or favour.
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Ok, I'm willing to concede the point that as a white North American male, I do live in a society that was shaped largely by white men. I'm not willing to concede that this society I live in is predicated on rape, that we live in a society where subconsciencly and systemicly, we are encouraged to rape women. From my understanding, that's what rape culture is, and I disagree with that assessment.


It would have to be a hell of a kiss for one's johnson to make a play. It's not rape. The circumstances/manner of the kiss would make the difference to whether it was an assault or not, I would think that there would need to be a number of persistent acts for harassment to occur.
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Ok, now bear in mind that this is a bit of a silly stretch, but it is based off some of the rhetoric I have encountered regarding the issue of sexual harassment, where basically any non consensual, physical contact, can be labelled as sexual harassment (amongst other things of course).

When I was a child, up until I was about 6 or 7, when my parents used to drop me off for school, they would give me a kiss goodbye - followed by the standard, "ewww, don't kiss me in front of my friends, gross!"

Were my parents sexually harassing me? It was unwanted, it was physical, it was repetitive, and I think we can classify kissing as "sexual". Did my parents think it was ok to force their kisses on me because we live in a rape culture which encourages that behaviour?
 
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JockeP22
I will continue to watch their body of work, including Spacey's, as their motion pictures and/or stand-up acts has nothing to do with what they're being accused of.
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I said similar to a friend who messaged me upset that Jeffrey Tambor (Arrested Development and others) and Jesse Lacey (from the band Brand New) had both had allegations made against them in recent weeks.

Whatever comes of either (and I don't think either has been prosecuted or seems likely to be, though the former's future career has no doubt been harmed) it doesn't affect my enjoyment of watching their shows or listening to their music.

The only time that has been the case for me was with Ian Watkins from Lostprophets, whose crimes were pretty horrific and whose music I've not been able to listen to since.
 
homeforsummer
whose crimes were pretty horrific
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I know - anyone with a password that simple should be shot out of a cannon into the side of a nuclear bunker.


But, like Spacey, he's significantly harmed the livelihoods of the people around him. They're undoubtedly losing out on money from record sales, and even though the band reformed without him as No Devotion, they've not troubled any UK charts at all.
 
twitcher
Ok, I'm willing to concede the point that as a white North American male, I do live in a society that was shaped largely by white men. I'm not willing to concede that this society I live in is predicated on rape, that we live in a society where subconsciencly and systemicly, we are encouraged to rape women. From my understanding, that's what rape culture is, and I disagree with that assessment.
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I stopped short of calling it a "rape culture" and I think you should too, because it isn't. What's evident is that there have been times when male behaviour towards women has been less than ideal and has, at times, been considered perfectly normal.

twitcher
Ok, now bear in mind that this is a bit of a silly stretch, but it is based off some of the rhetoric I have encountered regarding the issue of sexual harassment, where basically any non consensual, physical contact, can be labelled as sexual harassment (amongst other things of course).

When I was a child, up until I was about 6 or 7, when my parents used to drop me off for school, they would give me a kiss goodbye - followed by the standard, "ewww, don't kiss me in front of my friends, gross!"

Were my parents sexually harassing me? It was unwanted, it was physical, it was repetitive, and I think we can classify kissing as "sexual". Did my parents think it was ok to force their kisses on me because we live in a rape culture which encourages that behaviour?
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The context is important. It would be facile for somebody to argue that your parents sexually abused you when they kissed you outside school. A parent<->child kiss at the school gate is not considered sexual and I think the vast majority of society would agree with that. The reasons why you found it socially unacceptable would also be well understood. There are some fringe academics who think that this constitutes an assault of sorts but they're in a tiny minority in their field and, in my opinion, as dangerous to society as blokes who think it's alright to pat a pretty bird's arse, she's only there to make tea after all.
 
Famine
I know - anyone with a password that simple should be shot out of a cannon into the side of a nuclear bunker.
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I remember reading that some Government agency was extremely proud that they cracked his password and that it was a message to those who tried to hide stuff behind encryption and such.

The average hacker would have cracked that paedophile's password in 2 minutes.
 
twitcher
Slightly different aspect of this overall issue, but it's an aspect of "rape culture" that I'm confused as hell about, so humour me with this.....is kissing someone without their consent sexual harassment? Is it rape?
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TenEightyOne
It would have to be a hell of a kiss for one's johnson to make a play. It's not rape.
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Fortuitous timing from the Police Service of Northern Ireland:

 
Famine
Fortuitous timing from the Police Service of Northern Ireland:
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I think they've pulled it out, here's a cap.

PSNI.JPG
 
Not exactly the best wording, is it?

I can imagine the likes of Breitshart having a field day over that. "See?! The cultural Marxists are trying to ruin our pick-up game, REEEEEEEE!"
 
And this is exactly why I haven hesitated to really get involved in this issue, because I'm still confused as hell.

Kissing someone is rape? Honestly, how diluted has the definition of rape become? I honestly don't know how to have a geniune conversation on this topic when some of the basic terms central to the topic at hand have massively inconsistent and overly broad definitions (at least according to some of the parties involved, from what I can gather).

On one hand, coming out of many left leaning media outlets, we see the pledge to stop violence against women. Cool, I'm 100% on board with that (as long as said women are also doing their part to help prevent violence). But then you have these same media outlets putting forth the idea that biological sex is a social construct upheld by the patriarchy, and that there is actually no such thing as "men and women."

So if there's no such thing as women, how do we stop violence against them. And if men and women are the same, why do we want to stop violence against only half the population?
 
twitcher
Kissing someone is rape?
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No.

twitcher
Honestly, how diluted has the definition of rape become?
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Not diluted at all. The only grey area in a rape case is consent.

twitcher
I honestly don't know how to have a geniune conversation on this topic when some of the basic terms central to the topic at hand have massively inconsistent and overly broad definitions (at least according to some of the parties involved, from what I can gather).
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The definition of rape hasn't changed, you can cross that off your list of altered basic terms.

twitcher
And if men and women are the same, why do we want to stop violence against only half the population?
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Who is "we". Are you suggesting that some of those who want to stop violence against women are okay with violence against men? Seems broadly unlikely.
 
UKMikey
I'm not sure she represents any kind of mainstream opinion.
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Of course not and I never passed it off as such.

TenEightyOne
Who is "we". Are you suggesting that some of those who want to stop violence against women are okay with violence against men? Seems broadly unlikely.
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Key word is "some".

Some - an unspecified amount or number of.
 
Northstar
Of course not and I never passed it off as such.
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I've edited my post since you replied. I don't think made-up people can be said to represent anyone's opinion.
 
UKMikey
I've edited my post since you replied. I don't think made-up people can be said to represent anyone's opinion.
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I apologize for not doing thorough background checks.

So what about the women slapping men in media thing I brought up? Where is the outcry over that?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...n-hitting-your-man-is-not-cute-its-abuse.html
https://psychcentral.com/lib/is-it-ok-for-women-to-abuse-men/
https://hubpages.com/relationships/forum/28074/is-it-ok-for-a-woman-to-hit-a-man
 
Northstar
I apologize for not doing thorough background checks.

So what about the women slapping men in media thing I brought up? Where is the outcry over that?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...n-hitting-your-man-is-not-cute-its-abuse.html
https://psychcentral.com/lib/is-it-ok-for-women-to-abuse-men/
https://hubpages.com/relationships/forum/28074/is-it-ok-for-a-woman-to-hit-a-man
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All of those quite rightly conclude that it's abusive and not okay. You quote them as if they're saying somehow that it's okay?
 

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