So, we are Nazi's now?

[made in holland]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140612,00.html

Does History Repeat Itself?

Something terrible is happening in the land of wooden shoes, windmills, Rembrandt (search) and wonderful breakfasts.

A Dutch hospital is euthanizing — killing — newborn babies who don't measure up to an arbitrary standard set by the hospital. The hospital at first requested guidelines for so-called "mercy killings" of newborns. It then revealed it has been engaging in the practice without any guidelines at all. Three years after the Dutch parliament passed a law allowing doctors to actively kill patients they deemed terminally ill, in great pain and with no prospects for recovery, it has come to this. At least with the elderly sick, they had to be consulted about their wishes. Newborns receive no such privilege.

I'm not surprised.

Once a single category of life is declassified as having no intrinsic value and a right to life, it is a very short step to declassify other categories when they are considered inconvenient, or burdensome.

Holland is a perfect example of what happens when there is no governing moral standard. The Dutch have decriminalized most drugs and people smoke dope openly in venues set aside for the practice. Prostitutes display their wares like mannequins in department store windows. And now we have at least one hospital murdering already born babies because someone has decreed them unworthy of life.

If ever there was a slippery slope to be studied, this is it.

The Dutch are now grappling with their open border policy. They have admitted thousands of radical Islamists who have not assimilated and are threatening the stability of the nation. A Dutch filmmaker (search) was murdered last month by a radical who didn't like a film he made criticizing Islam's treatment of women.

And now we have the killing of newborns. All of this in a country where the Nazis murdered Ann Frank just because she was Jewish and therefore less than human.

Does history repeat? In Holland, apparently it does.

Does this man even has the slightest idea what he is talking about?

 

[Duke]

From having read that, I can't say that he does.

 

[sn00pie]

Ouch. Bad case of poor journalism. I feel sorry for the author.

This guy (Cal Thomas) wrote a book called "The Wit and Wisdom of Cal Thomas", he must be quite full of himself.

 

[Duke]

I didn't read the author's name. Cal Thomas is quite whitebread-conservative, but at least he's not usually a blithering idiot.

 

[Ev0]

Well, he certainly was a blithering idiot when he wrote that article. That article gave me a good laugh!

 

[cardude2004]

Never heard of him, but then again, I live in the US.

 

[Anderton Prime]

I don't understand, why is he an idiot? Is this story untrue? Please explain.

 

[Kent]

Not to be "that guy."

But does any one care to address the idea of euthanizing babies?

Continue with the remarks regarding Cal... That's ok, but I still wondered if any of us were going to address the subject and not the author.

By the way, I have no previous knowledge regarding what's going on in the hospitals in holland, so if any of you guys from that area of the world would care to fill us in, please do so.

I would really like to hear that this is not actually happening.
Then again, some may have views that differ from my own.

Any way,
Later.

 

[Ev0]

I'm pretty sure the author is trying to make people misinterpret the whole issue of baby euthanization. Firstly, I would wager that the number of babies that have been euthanized at the hospital in question is very low, which is probably why he did not cite a specific number. And the babies that have been euthanized probably had a very low chance of survival, or could have lived a life of illness and pain.

That, and the parents obviously would have been consulted the choice of euthanization. I could only imagine what would happen if the parents were never consulted about the decision.

And look at the source. Fox News, probably the most conservative mainstream news source in the world, bashing a socialist nation. Hmm....

 

[Kent]

Just looking for facts here

Imagination and wagers are not really along those lines, but I would have to agree with some of what you said.

Still though, none of this covers my simple request.

So when one of you with a factual understanding of this has the chance, please inform us all.

btw, evo,
Who do you consider to be "independant" in their reporting?
(amongst the "mainstream" news sources)

 

[a6m5]

Pretty shocking stuff, but as someone noted, it is FoxNews. I hope it's not true.

 

[Ev0]

Well, in the mainstream media, I would say that there is no such thing as completely balanced and unbiased reporting, although I feel that The Daily Show is about as good as it gets. And I am dead seroius.

*Edit* And I would also like to see if there are any real numbers to backup the reporter's claims.

 

[Duke]

Never heard of him, but then again, I live in the US.

Cal Thomas is an American syndicated newspaper columnist. All the McPapers like USA Today carry him. He's fairly conservative in the Rush Limbaugh school - fundamentally right about 65% of the time, but so off base the remaining 35% that it ruins his average.

I don't understand, why is he an idiot? Is this story untrue? Please explain.

Well leaving the issue of baby-murdering out of it, let's look at that 'Anne Frank' line. Just because she was in Holland when she was arrested doesn't mean she was killed by Dutch people or even in Holland... ol' Cal seems to have forgotten that Holland was invaded by Germans, fer cryin' out loud.

 

[milefile]

It is true. Medicine in Holland had undergone an ethical collapse. It is properly called Nazism. Childeren under twelve are routinely euthanized without parental consent (which is not to assume that parental consent justifies it). This is a stop along the way of advanced liberalism: government controlled secular socialism. There is an abundance of information on the subject if you just do a search for it, and not all of it is American right-wing opinion.

In my opinion it is maybe the most detrimental development in Western Civilization in fifty years.

This is why Roe v. Wade is still a hot topic in America.

 

[a6m5]

It is true. Medicine in Holland had undergone an ethical collapse. It is properly called Nazism. Childeren under twelve are routinely euthanized without parental consent (which is not to assume that parental consent justifies it).

I can not believe that. How could it get to that point without other nations intervening? Isn't this worse than China?

 

[Arwin]

It is true. Medicine in Holland had undergone an ethical collapse. It is properly called Nazism. Childeren under twelve are routinely euthanized without parental consent (which is not to assume that parental consent justifies it). This is a stop along the way of advanced liberalism: government controlled secular socialism. There is an abundance of information on the subject if you just do a search for it, and not all of it is American right-wing opinion.

In my opinion it is maybe the most detrimental development in Western Civilization in fifty years.

This is why Roe v. Wade is still a hot topic in America.

This is the most disgusting and offensive thing I've ever had the 'pleasure' of having said about my country. I tip my hat to you milefile, great job there. 👍

 

[Arwin]

Just looking for facts here

Imagination and wagers are not really along those lines, but I would have to agree with some of what you said.

Still though, none of this covers my simple request.

So when one of you with a factual understanding of this has the chance, please inform us all.

btw, evo,
Who do you consider to be "independant" in their reporting?
(amongst the "mainstream" news sources)

The way some of conservative U.S. had reported on this issue happens to have made a frontpage article on my morning paper. I'll attempt a quick translation, please excuse the slightly off English that results from that:

"Barbaric Holland is the new boogieman of the U.S."

From our correspondent
Jan Tromp
New York

It started mid-October in the Grand Forks Herald, a local newspaper in North-Dakota: "Dutch doctors have in the last months 4 times pumped a deadly dose of drugs into newborn babies, whom they believed to be terminally ill."

News on the code of conduct in Groningen [place in the North of Holland] for euthanasia in newlyborns spreads itself as a heath burn through the U.S., through local newspapers, radio talkshows, and many a conservative website.

"Holland has become worse than any conservative could have ever predicted," writes the philosopher John Mark Reynolds on his website. "It stands powerless against terrorism, it is quickly losing its national identity (including its language) and it is morally bankrupt."

In October, pediatricians of the Academic Hospital of Groningen have set up a protocol to be able to, in a few exceptionally rare cases, end the lives of young children. The hospital expects that the protocol will, in the whole of the Netherlands [16.5 million inhabitants], cover about 10-15 children will suffer so badly and hopelessly.

The presidential elections have done well for conservative America. They speak their minds. The anti-abortion faction now thinks it can book a victory. Religious right circles see the protocol of Groningen as the basest form of barbarianism that should be condemned as such.

"The Protocol of Groningen", says Hugh Hewitt, presenter of a national radioshow, "could have stood first on the agenda of the Wannsee Conerence." On 20 January 1942 the head of nazi-Germany in villa Wannsee in Berlin decided to eradicate the Jews.

The evil should not only be condemned, it should also be contained and conquered. John Mark Reynolds: "Some people look to the Netherlands and think it is attractive. But the Netherlands is a society run to the ground. It stands hostile to the production of babies. The country has embraced a culture of death."

Besides the total inability to grasp the issue, there is apparently a fear that the evil Dutch practices might make their way to North Dakota, Texas, Missouri. Brain Shavings, a conservative site from Ohio, calls for vigilance: "My progressive friends, can you at least start to see why so many of us who believe in the sanctity of life are this alarmed?"

 

[milefile]

A society where more people die than are born is rightly called a culture of death. If Europe doesn't make changes there will not be anyone left to complain about overseas admonishions.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Well leaving the issue of baby-murdering out of it, let's look at that 'Anne Frank' line. Just because she was in Holland when she was arrested doesn't mean she was killed by Dutch people or even in Holland... ol' Cal seems to have forgotten that Holland was invaded by Germans, fer cryin' out loud.

But he specifically stated that it was the Nazis who killed Anne Frank. I admit it's not the best way to put it, and it leaves things somewhat open to interpretation (which shouldn't happen in good journalism) but I don't think he was openly saying that he thought the Dutch were responsible for Anne Frank's death.

 

[Arwin]

A society where more people die than are born is rightly called a culture of death. If Europe doesn't make changes there will not be anyone left to complain about overseas admonishions.

You truly have no idea what you're talking about. I also don't understand how you can look yourself in the mirror when you complain about foreign countries misrepresenting yours and then you go on claiming the most terrible things without having seen the slightest shred of evidence.

Your comment on a society where more people die than are born is totally off the map. Don't worry, if we run out of white Arian supremists who like killing children for fun we will just simply import African / Eastern Islamic Religious Extremists, Chinese Communists, or Indian Buddhists / Christians / Muslims, as their culture is one of locust-like expansion. No amount of U.S. teen pregnancies and anti-abortion policies will allow it to win that rat-race. Of course it would be totally silly to even want that, and in case there is anyone here silly enough to miss it (you never know these days), all this was meant highly ironic.

To get back on topic, letting these children live is downright torture and you have to be incredibly cold-hearted to not act on that. There are not many people out in the world that would act differently, but in other countries you just don't hear about it. We make strict guidelines and try to keep things in the open for scrutiny, in case something does go wrong. The same with drugs, prostitution, abortion, and so on. We don't put our heads in the sand, we deal in the way we think best. That you disagree fine, but you can still respectfully disagree. Calling us Nazis is a favor that I hope none of us will ever return. But then this is something the author of this article did no less than 2 columns back also, so I suspect he takes such comparisons lightly and is hard at work in devaluating the comparison into a common swearword.

 

[Arwin]

But he specifically stated that it was the Nazis who killed Anne Frank. I admit it's not the best way to put it, and it leaves things somewhat open to interpretation (which shouldn't happen in good journalism) but I don't think he was openly saying that he thought the Dutch were responsible for Anne Frank's death.

Yes, but it is even worse. Anne Frank wasn't killed in this country, but died in a deportation camp in Germany, Bergen-Belsen, in 1945 a few weeks before the camp was liberated (part of the reason why her dad survived). Note that she died, so wasn't even really killed, of typhes. And it's not just that it leaves things up to interpretation, but by the title and the last line the author purposely sets it up to be interpretated in exactly that way.

The author clearly tried to make a point here in the most pathetic way. He must be good in the other 65% as neon_duke points out, or else the majority of his readers aren't informed enough to notice how far off his 35% is.

 

[87chevy]

Well the original article was terrible. Clearly he was blowing out of proportion and being very vauge intentionally. I trully hope Arwin that you are right about the doctors using very strict guidelines. But they are doing this up until the age of 12? without parental consent?? That would scare me a little.

But what scares me more is what's going on in my own country. This whole neo-con, religous Right movement is terryifing. Now i'm getting chain emails all about how the fore-fathers intended this to be a Christian nation and 'freedom of religion' actually meant freedom to choose your branch of Christianity. God help us!

 

[Arwin]

I've translated the original press release from the website of the Academic Hospital of Groningen (http://www.azg.nl/azg/nl/nieuws/persberichten/) and highlighted a few points for you.

Original press release:

29 October 2004 - Pediatrictians and child neurologists of the Academic Hospital of Groningen believe that doctors should in very rare cases have the option to end the lives of young children.

When adults suffer seriously and hopelessly, they can and may ask their doctors for euthanasia. When a doctor follows the procedure as defined by law, this will not have any legal consequences for him. For young children this is different. They cannot themselves ask for euthanasia and so they are legally incapable of determining their own destiny [I don't know the term for this in English]. Even so there are children, often newborn babies, who suffer very seriously and hopelessly. These children will stay alive even without intensive medical treatment [in all other cases, in most countries a doctor will recommend the parents not to seek treatment], but are facing a life of intense pain. This covers about 10 to 15 children a year in the whole of the Netherlands [16.5 million] which do not have any hope for the future. These children, which can also not be treated with painkillers, could be releived from their serious and hopeless suffering.

Pediatricians from Groningen have in the last years developed a protocol that can be used as a guideline for cases of active termination of life. The protocol is intended to guarantee careful handling [of such cases] and makes the work process of the medical team transparent and testable.

The protocol, that has came into being after deliberations with pediatricians in the whole of the Netherlands and discussed with the D.A., describes exactly in which cases the medical team can save the child from further suffering. The child must for instance suffer seriously in a way that cannot be through any other means, such as drugs, be releived. Also there may be no chance for improvement (hopelessness). The complete medical team (a seriously ill child is usually surrounded by a multi-disciplinary team of treating doctors adn nurses) has to be convinced that there is no other means to help the child, and also any doctors that have been consulted on the case outside the team have to agree. Consent of the parents is also compulsary. Finally, the termination itself has to fulfill all criteria for careful handling.

 

[Famine]

A society where more people die than are born is rightly called a culture of death. If Europe doesn't make changes there will not be anyone left to complain about overseas admonishions.

Most first-world countries enter a stage where birth and death rates are roughly equal but fluctuating. Total population can go up or down each year, depending on whether the death rate exceeds the birth rate marginally or vice cersa. It's not uncommon to see the population grow or shrink due to a five year period of one being consistently higher than the other and it's not statistically significant,

The UK's birth rate is going up as a direct result of an increasing teenage pregnancy rate. While each new life is a "good thing" in a society where medical car keeps most of them free of any worries of premature death, it's coming at the expense of a wrecked childhood of the mother - we're netting 11-year old mothers in the hundreds each year.

 

[Arwin]

Most first-world countries enter a stage where birth and death rates are roughly equal but fluctuating. Total population can go up or down each year, depending on whether the death rate exceeds the birth rate marginally or vice cersa. It's not uncommon to see the population grow or shrink due to a five year period of one being consistently higher than the other and it's not statistically significant,

The UK's birth rate is going up as a direct result of an increasing teenage pregnancy rate. While each new life is a "good thing" in a society where medical car keeps most of them free of any worries of premature death, it's coming at the expense of a wrecked childhood of the mother - we're netting 11-year old mothers in the hundreds each year.

Then there is immigration. Our population hasn't decreased at all. In fact, our population has increased by more than 2.5 million in the last 10 years, if I'm not mistaken. However, we've become more strict on immigration and we're slowly reaching a break even point. But our population so far hasn't decreased since WWII. So not only is the concept of a culture of death downright silly, the comment is based on no fact.

The fact that we are one of the most densely populated countries and areas in the world (take a world map on population density, look at Europe and you'll have no trouble spotting the red blot that's us - unless you're colorblind) is another good reason why it's not necessary for us to grow more in population. But we've so far never shrunk. Who knows we might this year thanks to new immigration policies, but if so, it won't be by more than 10.000 ...

 

[Ev0]

But what scares me more is what's going on in my own country. This whole neo-con, religous Right movement is terryifing. Now i'm getting chain emails all about how the fore-fathers intended this to be a Christian nation and 'freedom of religion' actually meant freedom to choose your branch of Christianity. God help us!

This also scares me. These people choose to ignore facts in order to keep their agenda valid in their own minds, and as such will likely pressure the US government on issues such as abortion and stem cell research.

The UK's birth rate is going up as a direct result of an increasing teenage pregnancy rate. While each new life is a "good thing" in a society where medical car keeps most of them free of any worries of premature death, it's coming at the expense of a wrecked childhood of the mother - we're netting 11-year old mothers in the hundreds each year.

This is why early abortions are a good thing. The concept of an eleven year old mother just sickens me. And I doubt the parents of the eleven year old will be able to help out much, seeing how they already failed miserably at raising a child. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the baby has all sorts of problems, since I doubt the body of an eleven year old is fully developed for pregnancy.

And thanks for finding the numbers on the childhood euthanasia. If anyone is interested, about 0.0000009% of the population of the Netherlands is eligable (sp?) for childhood euthanisation. This is hardly any epidemic as the fox news article tries to make it seem. And of course, this is only possible with parental consent.

 

[Solid Lifters]

It is true. Medicine in Holland had undergone an ethical collapse. It is properly called Nazism. Childeren under twelve are routinely euthanized without parental consent (which is not to assume that parental consent justifies it). This is a stop along the way of advanced liberalism: government controlled secular socialism. There is an abundance of information on the subject if you just do a search for it, and not all of it is American right-wing opinion.

In my opinion it is maybe the most detrimental development in Western Civilization in fifty years.

This is why Roe v. Wade is still a hot topic in America.

Please show us the "abundance of information" that led you to your erroneous conclusions of the Dutch people. That way I can point out how wrong they are.

 

[Smallhorses]

"Barbaric Holland is the new boogieman of the U.S."

From our correspondent
Jan Tromp
New York

"Holland has become worse than any conservative could have ever predicted," writes the philosopher John Mark Reynolds on his website. "It stands powerless against terrorism, it is quickly losing its national identity (including its language) and it is morally bankrupt."

This is a little off topic, but its a little preposterous to hear stuff like this coming from America!
The Dutch have shown tremendous foresight in my opinion, that their language is only spoken by around 20 million (maybe more) worldwide, and is hence unlikely to become the means by which all international communication takes place.
To this end the have very successfully begun to learn English in ways that other countries can only envy. Dutch as a language will never die, as long as there are people in Holland. Just because they have chosen to embrace the world culture doesn't mean they're allowing their own language to die.

To be honest when I read posts by many of the Dutch members of this site, I can safely say their grasp of English far outstrips many of the so-called native speakers of the language, the Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and British amongst us.

I have my own opinions on the euthanasia issue, and I won't share them with you here, but as a non-religious person, you can probably guess where I stand.
To hear some of the nonsense coming from religious folks denouncing the termination of a handful of terminal cases, when historically religion and religious wars have caused more and bloodier deaths than anything else in the history of humanity is sheer hypocrisy.

Quite how the mercy killing of some tiny children beyond any hope of a normal life can lead to comparisons with some of the most evil folks, i.e. Nazis, that have ever graced the face of the planet is also way beyond me. Eradication of an entire race because of misguided prejudices cannot and should not be compared to the people of the medical profession in Holland. I can quite easily see why Arwin and Made In Holland have been upset by the inane rantings of people that are quite happy to tar an entire population with the same brush.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Most of it is nonsense. It's bigoted drivel spouted off by Catholic "Right-to-lifers" who still can't grasp the concept that death is not the most terrible thing that could happen to a person.

I just hope milfile has some facts for us to go over, and not this pathetic twaddle.

 

[a6m5]

The protocol, that has came into being after deliberations with pediatricians in the whole of the Netherlands and discussed with the D.A., describes exactly in which cases the medical team can save the child from further suffering. The child must for instance suffer seriously in a way that cannot be through any other means, such as drugs, be releived. Also there may be no chance for improvement (hopelessness). The complete medical team (a seriously ill child is usually surrounded by a multi-disciplinary team of treating doctors adn nurses) has to be convinced that there is no other means to help the child, and also any doctors that have been consulted on the case outside the team have to agree. Consent of the parents is also compulsary. Finally, the termination itself has to fulfill all criteria for careful handling.

Thanks for the translation, Arwin. I'm glad to hear it was just case of FoxNews escalating the story(again) in pursuit of it's own agenda.

FoxNews is considered a total joke by even most Americans. Some people even call it the Right's propaganda machine, and are target of jokes by comedians here all the time. They should start reporting real news accurately or change their name. With the "news" in the name of network, some tend to get the impression that it's CNN. U.S. is an free country, there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, just make sure you call it what it is.