Starting in 2nd gear: a bug in GT?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 4: Prologue' started by Pontiac Le Mans, Nov 29, 2004.

  1. Pontiac Le Mans

    Pontiac Le Mans

    Messages:
    65
    As Cooper S states correctly in his excellent GTP lessons guide, with powerfull cars, you start faster in 2nd gear than in 1st, which is really evident in the acceleration lesson with the Viper: in 1st it is very hard to obtain Gold, in 2nd, you even can't miss it!

    I wonder whether this is a "bug" in GT3 / GTC /GTP or whether it is like that in real life. I remember that in the 70's Vittoria Brambilla did this at least once in Formula 1, but he broke his gearbox doing it.

    Are there any specialist who could give me an answer to this question.
     
  2. LoudMusic

    LoudMusic

    Messages:
    10,686
    Location:
    United States
    Kind of a toss up. With traction control a first gear start will be faster as it can deliver more controlled power at lower speed. But without traction control, you might as well go to second because first will just shred your tred. Those cars have way too much power.

    You could always jump into the tuning section and jack the gear ratio way up on first gear.
     
  3. Pontiac Le Mans

    Pontiac Le Mans

    Messages:
    65
    Thanks, but what about real life race cars? Do they start in first or in second gear?
    And if they start now in first gear because they have traction control, how did race drivers do before the existence of TCS?
     
  4. Jedi2016

    Jedi2016

    Messages:
    4,161
    Simple.. just don't floor the gas. Give it nice steady acceleration, so that the tires are just on the edge of breaking loose without going over. Same thing that TCS does, just done manually.
     
  5. yesterdaylight

    yesterdaylight

    Messages:
    204
    hey. they start in first gear. a lot of times in gran turismo we hop up our car engines, and then there is so much power first gear is too low and you end up just torquing the tires into a spin. the idea of having gears is so the engine can turn the wheels at all speeds. so first gear was so low in order to allow the engine to turn the wheels from a stand still without too much trouble when the car was in stock state. now with 300 more horsepower.. in some cases at least after you hop up the engine, you can turn the wheels much easier in first gear, so the tires peel out easier, no matter what the gear ratio. so a lot of times people will start in second to minimalize the tire peel out in first. usually it can be avoided if you just know how hard you can push the pedal in first before the tires start spinning. so starting in second gear is for people who can't drive ;-). later !
     
  6. LoudMusic

    LoudMusic

    Messages:
    10,686
    Location:
    United States
    I'll second what Jedi2016 said.

    About race cars ... they refine gear ratios so that everything is running at its peak. There would be no point in having a gear they simply didn't use.
     
  7. yokotapioka

    yokotapioka

    Messages:
    13
    ... when you start in 2nd gear is like eat an apple in a single bite :

    maybe you can do it , but is more possible to choke trying ...



    sorry for my " tarzan like " english
     
  8. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,224
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Really, I've seen quite a few professional racing drivers interviewed who have said that in certain conditions (mainly rain, low traction, etc) they start the race in second rather than first gear. This seems to be particularly true in front wheel drive cars in the wet (BTCC is a good example). Now not every driver will do it, but to state that all drivers should only start in first and anyone else can't drive. Brave words; cr*p, but brave.

    It can be condition dependant, remember that not all racing cars have full race spec gearboxes. So changing the ratios is not always an option, and in rallying you may be able to change the gear ratios, but not for every stage and if conditions change, then so must your driving technique.
     
  9. yesterdaylight

    yesterdaylight

    Messages:
    204
    hey. i didnt mean to insult anyone. I agree completely, that sometimes it is optimal to start in second gear during low traction situations. But.. cars do have first gear for a reason, and you should be able to start in it, regardless of the situation, and many times it is harder to tell how hard you can hit the accelerator before your tires lose grip in first as opposed to second. its really very open ended. i don't mean you can't drive if you start in second gear, but it is there for a reason.
    -Ian
     
  10. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,224
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    No problem, just saying that in certain conditions or certain race series (mainly ones with 'control' components such as tyres or gearboxes) the driving conditions may require the use of 2nd gear to start.
     
  11. yesterdaylight

    yesterdaylight

    Messages:
    204
    absolutely scaff. it all depends on conditions and tuning for the particular race and conditions.
     
  12. Pontiac Le Mans

    Pontiac Le Mans

    Messages:
    65
    Thank you for all your informations. I indeed do believe that I'm a bad starter and I'll have some practice.

    But nevertheless, I am surprised by the good chronos you can make starting 2nd gear in the Viper license.

    Could someone estimating he is a good starter try the following on the Viper License Test:

    - first start in second: full trottle from the beginning of the countdown
    - next start in first and try to make the best time possible.

    Are you able to beat the 2nd gear starttime by a 1st gear start?

    Came someone communicate some times?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  13. yesterdaylight

    yesterdaylight

    Messages:
    204
    sure. maybe later tonight or tomorrow. i have a few essays to write tonight, and GT comes second to homework some days. :-P
     
  14. CooperS

    CooperS

    Messages:
    94
    Hi Pontiac, if you start in 1st gear at around 3/4 throttle and keep it that way (no wheel spin) and just before changing to 2nd gear go full throttle and keep it floored all the way a 9.194 is possible where as starting in 2nd a 9.264 was my best ever. I posted a replay (x-portv2 PAL) over at granturismo.de of the 9.194.

    Starting in 1st as I described blasts you much faster off the line and you loose some time changing to 2nd so in the end you just cross the finish line faster but your top speed will actually be lower than starting in 2nd if I remember correctly.

    So if you had to drive much further starting in 2nd might even be faster but I never tested that, getting a first gear start just right is a pain. The chance of screwing up is mighty large, playing it safe: start in 2nd.
     
  15. GTmaniac

    GTmaniac

    Messages:
    522
    It's a pain in the ass to hit it right in 1st gear.
    After watching your replay I tried numerous times :grumpy:
    I will try more.....maybe some other time,but I doubt it?! :scared:
     
  16. Pontiac Le Mans

    Pontiac Le Mans

    Messages:
    65
    Thanks CooperS and GTmaniac. You confirm what I was supposing: it had to be possible, but you have to be really good to perform it each time. So I'll keep starting in second.
     
  17. yesterdaylight

    yesterdaylight

    Messages:
    204
    awesome. sorry i didn't get around to running that experiment i just got a cold and now i'm all pooped out. the wheel isnt getting set up anytime soon :-P. laterrrrr