Taming the Beast - Ford GT Settings - No Driving Aids

Discussion in 'GT4 Tuning' started by panjandrum, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Note: Read through the posts below, I think I've finally come up with some solutions I'm extremely happy with. Also, thanks to those who helped with suggestions!

    I've been trying to locate some settings for the Ford GT '05 (road car) that don't use any driving aids. The car is a blast to drive but has even more tail-whipping-around issues than the RUF Yellowbird. It seems to hold just fine and then all of a sudden you're out of control. So far all the setups I've seen use nannies, and I don't want to do that.

    So far I'm running it pretty much stock. I've tried the sports and racing suspensions, but none of the usual tricks for controlling tail-spin have worked.
     
  2. JParker

    JParker

    Messages:
    502
    Try extreme LSD settings. 30/40/35. The key being high initial torque to engage it quickly and high deceleration effect to keep the rear steady when lifting off the throttle or corner entry. Assuming deceleration is where your having the rear end problems. Is that the case?

    JParker
     
  3. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Actually, deceleration is usually OK. The problem usually creeps in when trying to power out of a turn. Even the most gentle pressure on the gas pedal sometimes causes a total spin. I don't usually use LSDs as they tend to make the cars straighten out when accelerating or decelerating, even if you use conservative LSD settings.. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes however...

    Edit: Turns out the "standard" LSD is actually a fully customizable LSD in the Ford GT.
     
  4. wheelow

    wheelow

    Messages:
    90
    I've been working on settings for this car for a week now. I've gotten it better, but the back will still slide out from me when I lift off the throttle going into a turn and then apply it coming out. When I get it any better I'll post my settings. I'm going to play around with them some more.
     
  5. JParker

    JParker

    Messages:
    502
    If you're getting it on entry and exit try stock accel/decel settings and just increase the initial torque to something like 20 and then in multiples of 3 to see if you get any improvement.

    I love the two GT racers, but I drove the non-racing GT and that was the first, last, and only time I will drive that thing. :yuck:
     
  6. wheelow

    wheelow

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    90
    Yeah, that's the main thing I was going to play around with. And yeah, the two GT race cars handle SO much better than the street car does.
     
  7. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Last night I had a go again with the configuration and the car is much better now. She'll still swing her butt around if you let all the way off coming around a curve at high speed (we're talking 170+ like on High Speed Ring), but that is manageable if you remember to keep a little pressure on the gas instead of letting all the way off. In general, the car now drives much more like a MR car should - you can use the rear weight bias to let the back swing some, then stomp back on the gas and roar off properly. The car also jitters much less at high speeds (200+) and can be driven with full mods (838hp) as long as you're careful. It behaves better at 723hp (Stage 2 NA Tuning instead of stage 3). You'll still want to be a little careful with the accelerator in the first couple of gears coming out of tight corners, but that's true with any powerful vehicle if you aren't using nannies. The brake controller is set so that you can still get some tail swing on deceleration, which can really help take turns fast *if you are careful*. If you want less twitchy brakes you can turn off the brake-controller or increase the rear break controller. I know the instructions would indicate that increasing the rear brakes should cause the rear to spin out, but they have something screwed up in the physics and the brakes actually do the opposite of what they say. (I've tried it in several cars now, and it isn't specific to the model - increasing rear brakes over the fronts increases stability and understeer. Decreasing the rear brakes increases oversteer and instability. - Exactly the opposite of what the instructions on the bottom of the screen tell you should be happening.) This car oversteers a lot on deceleration, so you'll want the rear brakes to be higher than the front just to keep it manageable. After making these changes, I was able to go in and stomp out a first place in several of the All American Championship races where I could barely manage a 5th place before. I'm much happier with the car now. I'll probably continue to tweak a few of the setting I haven't had time to get to yet. Specifically, I might try to tune out that high-speed tail swing, but for now try this and let me know what improvements you come up with:

    EDIT: These settings have been superseded by those in later posts.

    All settings are Front / Rear

    Tires - Racing Hard / Racing Hard
    Racing Brakes
    Brake Controller - 7 / 9

    Springs - 8.0 / 13.9
    Ride Height - 120 / 132
    Bound - 3 / 5
    Rebound - 8 / 10
    Camber - 2.0 / 2.0
    Toe - 0 / 0 (haven't played with yet)
    Stabilizers - 5 / 5 (haven't played with yet)

    Driving Aids - NONE!

    Wing Downforce - 15 / 50
     
  8. misnblu

    misnblu Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    2,312
    Thanks for the settings.
    I just got my Ford GT and took it on the Nurburing (something like that, darn Germans) :lol: and it was all over the place. Btw, I'm German and that was a joke. :dopey:
    I hated the fact it was so loose and got real squirrelly on some of the turns.
    This should help when I try it out again this evening.
    Misnblu
     
  9. wheelow

    wheelow

    Messages:
    90
    Ford GT Street Car.

    Exhaust : Racing
    Racing Chip : Sports

    NA Tuning : Stage 3

    Tire Type : Racing
    Front : Medium (R3)
    Rear : Medium (R3)

    Nitrous : Equip (50 shot)

    Brakes : Racing
    Brake Controller : Equip
    Front : 5
    Rear : 5

    Suspension : Racing
    Spring Rate : Front 10.0 / Rear 12.0
    Ride Height : Front 80 / Rear 80 (may play with ride height some more)
    Shock (Bound) : Front 3 / Rear 4
    Shock (Rebound) : Front 6 / Rear 8
    Camber Angle : Front 2.0 / Rear 1.0 (may adjust more later on as well)
    Toe Angle : Front 0 / Rear -4
    Stabilizers : Front 3 / Rear 3

    Transmission : Full Customize
    Gears : I'll let you decide

    Clutch : Triple Plate
    Flywheel : Racing

    Driving Aids :
    ASM (Oversteer) : 0
    ASM (Understeer) : 0
    TCS Controller : 5

    Limited-Slip : Full Customize
    Initial Torque : 30
    Acceleration : 30
    Deceleration : 30

    After adjusting and experimenting more with the LSD, this car has become a completely different car for me. I'd actually trust this car in an actual race now. I tested these settings on the Infineon Raceway Sport Car Course, where I did when it would slide and spin out constantly, and I did 3-4 full laps with these LSD settings, and it didn't do it once. Just be cautious when lifting off the throttle coming into corners, there is a hint of it wanting to come around, but it's easily stopped.

    I'll mess around with ride height and camber angles some more and edit this post when I come to a conclusion with them.
     
  10. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    OK, I tried that and it works pretty well. I have a couple problems with it in that I've always found Rear Toe in and LSDs to hamper handling overall, which this definitely does. Then I tried it without the LSD and it seemed to be just as stable for me, so maybe you don't need the LSD in this setup. Having the LSD and Toe that high definitely makes the car resist turns - I was driving it right off the turns. But, like you say, it is definitely much more stable and probably very suitable for wide courses. Unfortunately, I mostly like tighter courses and it wasn't doing well there at all.

    So, I tried combining my previous settings with some of yours and did this:

    Lowered my height to your setting.

    Left the rear Toe at 0

    Turned off LSD and

    Turned off Traction Control (actually, I never turned it on, I don't use it in any cars currently).

    Then I broke one of my own tuning rules and decided to try the weight balance. Figuring that the GT must be really tail-heavy (in the game, in RL this is supposed to be one totally sweet-handling car, btw, PD really hosed this up somehow!), I started adding weight to the nose. Once I got to 100 pounds placed as far forward as possible the problem suddenly went away. You might be able to use a little less - I went in 10 pound increments, so the magic # could be anywhere from 91 to 100 pounds.

    The car now handles almost perfectly. One thing this beast does really well is power through corners. Start wide, get setup, and then just stomp on it - it really digs in.

    P.S. If you're tweaking these settings, you'll probably want to stick with Hard Racing or Super Hard Racing. This car is hell on tires and you'll need the Hards to get through even a relatively short race.

    P.P.S. You can still spin her pretty easily in a tight corner if you use too much throttle on exit - but that's a common problem with powerful cars. It might still be a bit exaggerated in this puppy though....
     
  11. wheelow

    wheelow

    Messages:
    90
    Oh man, I think you're onto something with the LSD hampering handling. I did take it off on the Ford GT, and took the toe back to 0 and took the traction control down to 0, and it drove pretty much just the same, if not a LITTLE better like you said. BUT...I was messing around with my '90 Toyota Supra Twin Turbo R, and I was running it with LSD and a 5 on the traction control, took the LSD off, and put the traction control to 0, and I just ran a lap 2 seconds better than when I had it equipped and with the trac.control set to 5.
     
  12. Canadian Speed

    Canadian Speed

    Messages:
    563
    You could also try doing the reverse tranny trick to make the gears a bit wider if the spins you're talking about are occuring on corners where you're REALY slowing down... Also, if you're using the charger as a way to boost your HP, this'll keep you in your optimum power ranger... Just a thought...
     
  13. JW31

    JW31

    Messages:
    783
    Here's my set up..

    Springs___96/12.9
    RH_______84/84
    SB________2/3
    SRB_______4/6
    Cam_____2.6/2.1
    Toe_______0/0
    Stab______6/6

    LSD
    IT________12
    Acel_______23
    Decel______38

    Breaks_____6/5
    Downforce__30/50

    Gears
    Final______3.250
    Auto_______18

    Nos______user pref

    ASM over_____0
    ASM under____0
    TCS_________5


    hope this helps buddy.
     
  14. Ianbiz

    Ianbiz

    Messages:
    51
    I used the 1st set of settings. They were better than stock but not that great.

    My back tires are getting eatten up so fast with this car. I am running Racing super hards. what to do about this?
     
  15. Ianbiz

    Ianbiz

    Messages:
    51

    I am spining in circles w/ this set up.

    Any others?
     
  16. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    OK, I've tweaked some more and now I have a car that is absolutely excellent. The handling is superb, especially the way it just grunts through high-speed turns under acceleration. You can really feel the torque in this puppy and it sticks to the ground like glue. I got brave took it around Nurburgring (Photo mode) and it handled great (looks great too). The only thing you just can't do is get into a tight turn in 1st or 2nd and the stomple the accelerator - but you shouldn't be doing that anyway. You could probably fix that issue if you're willing to turn on the Traction Control, but real men learn to control the throttle themselves :-) (Yeah, this comes from a guy with Traction Control and Stability Control in his RL car).

    This is handling stats only, I'll leave the engine tuning up to your own preferences.

    Tires - This setup works pretty well with Sports Soft or the Hard/Super Hard Racing Tires.

    All settings are Front / Rear

    Racing Brakes
    Brake Controller - 7 / 9

    Springs - 8.0 / 13.9
    Ride Height - 80 / 85
    Bound - 3 / 5
    Rebound - 8 / 10
    Camber - 2.0 / 2.0
    Toe - 0 / 0
    Stabilizers - 5 / 5

    Driving Aids - NONE!

    Wing Downforce - 15 / 50

    Limited-Slip - Standard (no LSD)

    Weight Balance: 95 pounds set at -50 (all the way to the front).

    That's it, hope you like them!

    Edit: I came back and tried this setup again and I still think it works pretty well.
     
  17. Ianbiz

    Ianbiz

    Messages:
    51
    if i want 2 stomp on the gas, what do i need 2 change?
     
  18. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    As some of you might have noticed, I've been trying to tame the Ford GT and turn it into a usable car. I'm doing this for several reasons. First, I love the way the car looks and sounds. Second, I'm pissed at PD for (what we can only assume was purposefully) hosing this fantastic car. After fiddling around with this thing on and off for months, I've now revised my final setting and hopefully this is the last set.

    Key points:

    1) I use no driving aids at all. There are plenty of other Ford GT settings out there that do use the driving aids, so if you're into that you won't like this setup.

    2) Add the roll-cage! This is the final step I tried, and it allowed me to do away with the ballast completely. Now the car handles like a powerful MR car should. In my previous settings I used a huge weight up front to help balance-out the rear-end spinning-around issue. Although it did what I desired, it also eliminated much of the throttle-off oversteer, which a MR car *should* have. I was always releasing the gas and assuming the rear would start to swing around, but it didn't.

    3) I drive the beast fully-tuned, 838 hp or so. God is it fast!

    4) This thing also powers out of corners very well. Many of the cars in GT4 seem to begin understeering when you try to get on the pedal in turns. With these tuning settings you'll actually get more traction if you get on the throttle around the corners, it's better at this than any of my other vehicles at this point, though by no means is it my best overall-handling vehicle.

    This is handling stats only, I'll leave the engine tuning up to your own preferences.

    Here's my newest rundown:

    Tires - This setup works pretty well with Sports Soft or Hard/Super Hard Racing Tires. It tears tires up, so you'll usually want something pretty hard unless it is a very short race. Also, the car gets rear-end happy again if you use anything softer than racing hards.

    All settings are Front / Rear

    Racing Brakes
    Brake Controller - 7 / 9

    Springs - 8.0 / 13.9
    Ride Height - 80 / 85
    Bound - 3 / 5
    Rebound - 8 / 10
    Camber - 2.0 / 2.0
    Toe - 0 / 0
    Stabilizers - 5 / 5

    Driving Aids - NONE! Zero, Zip, Nada!

    Wing Downforce - 15 / 50

    Limited-Slip - Default

    Weight Ballast: None

    Make Sure to add the ROLL-CAGE, it helped immensely.

    Hope you enjoy the car now!
     
  19. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    24,544
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm sorry but I just can not agree with this, the Ford GT has been one of the most maligned cars in GT4, and I for one (and I know a number of other people agree) think this is wrong.

    My first point would be that the car stock, with no mods what so ever is excellently balanced, with excellent levels of grip and a stupid level of power. Its handling balance for a road car with this kind of output is very very good.

    The following is a quote from Evo when they reviewed the GT and tested it on road and at Laguna Seca

    "On the couple of occasions that it does start to oversteer it's difficult to gather up smoothly because ofthe tyres' quick recovery of grip and the exaggerated weight transfer due to the rear body roll. But for all this it's an engaging and rewarding track car if you are precise and smooth"

    Now that to me seems like an acurate description of the GT4 Ford GT, try and hurl it from corner to corner and its not going to be a happy bunny, as with any high power mid-engined car it needs smooth and deliberate inputs.

    However one of the biggest problems most people come across with the GT is that the wack on a lot of mods, drive the car and then say that PD messed up the car. The biggest culprit of the lot is the custom gearbox.

    The standard gearbox has the following ratios. Approx as it is not possiable to view the actual ratios, but the graph would indicate that the ratios are very, very close to these which are the actual Ford GT ratios.

    1st 2.61
    2nd 1.71
    3rd 1.23
    4th 0.94
    5th 0.77
    6th 0.63

    Final Drive 3.36


    The default setting ratios on the custom gearbox are

    1st 3.601
    2nd 2.299
    3rd 1.626
    4th 1.216
    5th 0.949
    6th 0.783

    Final Drive 3.36

    Now its the first three gears that cause the problem, because with these ratios in place the car is going to want to rip the tyres to pieces, even using the Auto setting (as a lot of people do) on 25 they are not close to standard, you need to have a massive play around with the settings to get even close.

    The Ford GT does not need gear ratios this high, the car has so much torque that all close ratios do is make it more and more difficult to get the power down.


    For a quick comparison I ran a few laps around Tsukuba in a totaly stock GT (not even an oil change) on N3 tyres with no aids at all. Set a time of 1.04:159, Best Motorings time for a 360 Modena around the same track is 1.06:28.

    I've run a good number of tests on various cars in GT4 to see how they react compaired to real world physics and results, my favorate test car is the Ford GT (due to how many people say PD got it wrong) you may find some of the results very interseting. Head over to the GT4 & Brakes forum for a look.

    As for PD messing up the GT (which in my opinion they did not) on purpose, I would be very surprised if thats the case, as Kazunori Yamauchi owns one and has said on a number of occasions that its one of his favorite cars.

    I mean why take one of your favorite cars (and one you own), put it on the cover of the game box, disc, manual, official guide and in the intro video and then go and mess up it performance on purpose.
     
  20. rk

    rk

    Messages:
    466
    I pretty much agree with Scaff, although I think the key is to keep the settings as close to default as possible. I take the difference between the springrates and add half to the lower and subtract half from the higher, then adjust for steering bias, for example. However, the one that is featured in the video and cover (and I bet is more like Kazunori's personal) is actually the '04 Spec II; the decals, wing, even the fixed and vented windows match exactly.
    I could not find an '04 GT so I used an '05 to tune. After adding every option including cage, rims and wing I found it very neutral in steering with a slight off throttle oversteer (I call "fear steer") and strong brake understeer, but I hate tuning brakes to sport tires and it apparently shows. The only time I found unmanageable oversteer was when traction was reduced by grass or air. I would love to drive this car with race tires, but since I can't race anyone that way, there is no point. Here is my set, not shown is left default, except downforce was maxxed, tires were S3.
    brakes 5/7
    springs 12.3/12.3
    height 103/113
    bound 7/7
    rebound 8/8
    camber 2.9/1.7
    asm/o 0
    asm/u 0
    tcs 3
    Thats it, hope somebody enjoys it.
     
  21. djaft3rb3ats

    djaft3rb3ats

    Messages:
    370
    very nice settings, i tried it and it rocked, my settings where wiped out by yours, nice job



    djaft3rb3ats
     
  22. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    Sorry, the 04 in my original post was a typo that I never noticed :-( I meant the 05. I've edited the original message to reflect this.

    On your tuning below, I *think* the reason you're not having problems with the rear swinging around too easily with your setup is that you are using the TCS. For kicks, try turning that off. For me, using TCS makes the car much easier to control, but I don' like to use it, I prefer to drive the cars with no nannies whatsoever.

    About my current experiences with a mostly stock GT:

    I also just won a stock 05 (the yellow one with no racing stripes) in one of the Extreme tournaments. I've left the handling stock - standard suspension and not added a wing. I did reduce the weight and then added a rollcage. Then I tuned the powertrain, but only to the point that it was still a manageable car on soft sports tires (I want a GT tuned for split-screen racing on sports tires). I ended up around 640 hp I think. I haven't finished testing this configuration fully yet, but it appears that the posters suggesting that this car is actually pretty good as long as you don't screw with it too much are correct. This car seems to handle much better than my original GT did. I'm thinking that, had I FIRST added the rollcage to my original GT, I would have had a much easier time tuning it. I usually avoid adding the rollcage, because of the warning about it causing understeer in some cars (I HATE understeer). I'm thinking of using it more often now, because so far every car I've added it to with the exception of one (some weird concept thing), it has improved handling immensely.


     
  23. rk

    rk

    Messages:
    466
    I am sorry, but I already know I am unable to drive without adequate tcs. I attribute this fact to my use of the DS2 controller, and it's not all bad. During my GT2 heyday, I went to the trouble of building a cockpit for my Dual Force wheel. I was dismayed to find that, as enjoyable as the driving experience was, I was not as fast as with the controller, nevermind the bulk and hassle of a cockpit. I attributed this to the fact that driving, at least Michael Schumacher style F1 driving, lends itself heavily to the old racing addage, "You must either be whole full on or full brakes, anything else is just coasting." i had decided the wheel and pedals were "too soft." and I have never looked back...ok, perhaps a sideways glance at my friends with their DFP wheels...
    On the matter of the frame stiffener: I too had the same reservations and thought to myself "Could the game physics be so complex that so obvious a performance enhancement would be detrimental?" I now believe the answer is a resounding "NO". My current theory about the scrolling text disclaimer is that is was put there as a ruse, not intentional misdirection, but more to add a sense of "balance", since the only real disadvantage the rollcage has is it's price in credits.
     
  24. djaft3rb3ats

    djaft3rb3ats

    Messages:
    370
    wow, i enjoyed it, thanks for the setting rk, im guessing there should be no more debate and that an admin or someone will close this thread? lol



    djaft3rb3ats
     
  25. panjandrum

    panjandrum

    Messages:
    1,026
    No, don't close the thread. I'm still working on this car occasionally. Currently I've gone back to a totally stock GT with nothing except lightening and the roll-cage mods, plus only a little extra power. Handling is excellent on Sports Soft tires with stock suspension and no wing. Once you get into racing tires things begin to get a little funky - the softer the tire the more horrible rear-end snap you get during throttle-off oversteer.

    So, stick with harder tires.

    To test this, go to the High Speed Ring, get lots of speed up to the first corner, pull into the corner, then lift your foot off the gas, if the rear-end whips around instantly try harder tires on all 4 wheels.

    Given time I'll try to come up with specific tunings for different tires, but since you can't really run anything softer than Racing Hards anyway on this beast due to tire wear, I'll probably concentrate on Sports Soft, RSH, and RH tires.
     
  26. djaft3rb3ats

    djaft3rb3ats

    Messages:
    370
    if i am understanding this rite, the front tires are stable but the rear ones are whippin out?

    does that mean u can drift around corners? cuz id rather have 2 tires die out than all 4.

    clarify it up a bit (for me at least) cuz ima little bit lost





    djaft3rb3ats
     
  27. coolacrille

    coolacrille

    Messages:
    211
    very good point. still I cant control this car so i'll just leave it....
     
  28. 50/50

    50/50

    Messages:
    60
    has anyone ever thought that maybe they have too much power? if youre flooring it out of corners and the car doesnt understeer then maybe your best bet is tuning it down until you can handle it... i always tune my handling on cars with stock horsepower and then add as i see that the car can handle it.

    also i dont know if this was clarified, but incresing the ride height in the rear adds downforce to the entire car, transfers weight better during accel/decel, but also causes the rear end to come around easier during slower corners...its a very useful tool, unless the car already oversteers innately. look at the "noob question about ride height".
     
  29. Zardoz

    Zardoz

    Messages:
    2,208
    If the Ford GT was a "Nissan GT", or a "Honda GT", or a "Toyota GT", or a "Mazda GT", does anyone think PD would have made it handle like it does in this game?
     
  30. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    24,544
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Again I have to say that I have no problem at all with the handling of the Ford GT, personally I think the car handles exceptionally well for a 550bhp mid engined car with 500ft/lbs of torque.

    Yes it does require smooth inputs, but so do most high powered mid-engined car (the Elise is just as tricky on the limit) and every review/article I have read about the real car has said that it is tricky on the limit, with oversteer hard to catch and smooth inputs required.

    I love the handling of the Ford GT and on N3 tyres (stock car) can put it around Tsukuba a good 2 seconds quicker than a Dodge Viper SRT-10 which is compariable in terms of power. I find it understeers considerably less than the Viper, but it is trickier on the limit.

    I have no problem with people who do not like the handling of the car, as this is a very personal thing; but I can't agree that PD have deliberatly 'messed' with the car as I have seen no proof of this. People have tried to say that the braking and acceleration are off on the car and the top speed is wrong; but I have carried out a wide range of tests in these areas and the GT4 version matches or exceeds the real car in all areas.

    Regards

    Scaff