The AI Worries Me... A Lot

ScottPuss20

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ScottPuss20
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One of the things that has let Gran Turismo down in recent years is the AI. They seem weak, overly cautious and too slow to be a serious issue for most people. GT7 can have all the bells, whistles and nostalgia it wants but without competent AI, I fear that the whole experience will be ruined. This is such an important factor for the future and PD HAVE TO get it right. There is no excuse in this day and age to have such pathetic AI who will not fight for position and fail to provide some kind of competition. I honestly don't know how PD will turn this around if history has taught us anything. This is such an important part of the old GT experience, and GT7 will fall flat if the AI are crap. I assume that many of you here echo this sentiment.
 
One of the things that has let Gran Turismo down in recent years is the AI. They seem weak, overly cautious and too slow to be a serious issue for most people. GT7 can have all the bells, whistles and nostalgia it wants but without competent AI, I fear that the whole experience will be ruined. This is such an important factor for the future and PD HAVE TO get it right. There is no excuse in this day and age to have such pathetic AI who will not fight for position and fail to provide some kind of competition. I honestly don't know how PD will turn this around if history has taught us anything. This is such an important part of the old GT experience, and GT7 will fall flat if the AI are crap. I assume that many of you here echo this sentiment.
I agree, driving in singleplayer mode on difficult! mode is simple said like going for a walk. The only difficulty is, to start from far behind, cause of no qualification, at tracks like Laguna Secs a bit problem but doesn’t matter. „Funny“ is, That Cars before you set the blinking lights for you and drive beside.. Always the two BMW M6 on the top of the field ;) Play ACC and you realizes, you aren’t so good as you think, or F1
 
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I want AI that challenges me at every turn.

Also bring in qualifying. Im sick of the cat and mouse game where we start back just to play catch up.

PD should not say well we have multiplayer nah it does not work like that we want proper ai and proper ai settings.
 
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Well if I'm playing devil's advocate here I'd say that even though GT Sport was online-focused and the AI wasn't the main part of the experience, that game has the most advanced AI we've seen in the series so far (custom-race professional AI) so that shows that at least they've been working on it to some degree even when it arguably wasn't a priority.

That AI can actually be kind of fun and a little challenging at tracks like Le Mans. The cars behind you will fight for your slipstream, sometimes they'll miss braking points, they always try to avoid accidents (with idle cars on track). I've even seen them blocking corners when you're 500 milliseconds or so behind them. So the foundations are there, they just need to work out speeding it up a little without it being cheap or unfair.
 
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To add, AI shouldn't be track specific. The worse AI, are at Bathurst. It's appalling at such a world reknown circuit, if a player follows that AI, it's met with crawling pace from The Cutting to McPhillamy Park. CArs moving over and slowing down around Nurburgring 24H & Nordschliefe.

AI also shouldn't be car specific as mentioned above. GT4 was notorious for that. Especially, my favorite event: Tuning Car GP at Apricot Hill. Opera Performance S2000 is king.
 
I look forward to the day when I don't have to trick GT into putting the competition on better tyres than the ones I swap-out for in order to help make the AI a challenge.
 
Well if I'm playing devil's advocate here I'd say that even though GT Sport was online-focused and the AI wasn't the main part of the experience, that game has the most advanced AI we've seen in the series so far (custom-race professional AI) so that shows that at least they've been working on it to some degree even when it arguably wasn't a priority.

That AI can actually be kind of fun and a little challenging at tracks like Le Mans. The cars behind you will fight for your slipstream, sometimes they'll miss braking points, they always try to avoid accidents (with idle cars on track). I've even seen them blocking corners when you're 500 milliseconds or so behind them. So the foundations are there, they just need to work out speeding it up a little without it being cheap or unfair.
The AI in GT Sport is not very bad. I think like you. In Sport, the rivals defend their positions and try attack in certain moments. The problem is that they are slow. In some races, the rival has got a car fast (Example: i drive a DS3 and he a Civic Type R '15) but he don't step on the gas
 
I like that the AI can make errors when you get close to them, but the mid-corner braking is so frustrating, especially at Bathurst as said above, I did the Gr.3 endurance there and thought I wasn't going to catch up because of all the traffic, as soon as I was in clear air, I was gaining over 2s a lap, all across the top of the mountain, and I am not good at all at Bathurst!

Also they often won't back out of contact, especially on corner exit, they've pit maneuvered me several times, generally if I've got a bad exit after overtaking them.

The rubber-banding needs to go as well, if i can catch and pass the leader, he shouldn't be suddenly getting another 100HP and be flying back past on every straight.
 
We never know what is being cooked...
 

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The quality of the AI has dipped down ever since online racing became a thing. My best memories of competing against the AI are from GT4 where teenage me had countless challenging races against them on the Nurburgring. I also still remember the very moment when I was playing GT5 Prologue for the first time and realized that I could overtake an AI driver (who was using the exact same car as me) without even using any slipstream. "You're in a stock Alfa Romeo 147 on the Daytona Oval!" I thought to myself, "Why would you not go full throttle?" That was incomprehensible to me. Sure enough when GT5 came out the issue had been carried over. Worse still, the AI would even ease off the accelerator when you were right next to them to wave you by. That killed offline gaming completely for me in GT5 and not a lot has changed since then. The AI in GT Sport is by far not as bad but still has substantial shortcomings as already pointed out by previous posts. I would like to add this video to that which illustrates a fundamental lack of strategic thinking, allowing me to win a race from 30 seconds behind on the final lap.



Having said all that however there's still hope. Some time ago there was a news article about an AI learning study that was carried out in GT Sport. I couldn't find the article but I did find the video and it looks very promising indeed. Let's hope that PD is taking this idea forward for the development of GT7.

 
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Quite frankly GT has never had good AI in terms of raw competitiveness. Awareness, maybe, but in terms of outright speed and racecraft, nope, never.

They have always either cheated with rubber-banding/boost and even running cars that don't qualify for the events or they've just been woefully slow when driving fair and square.

As for the catch-up format if GT7 only has that I won't buy it, simple as that. PD should have been massacred for using that in GT6 but they got let off, and just carried it over to GTS, still with pretty much no furore in the media.

Plus to add to that, as I've said before, we absolutely need to be able to choose AI difficulty for every event. Fixed AI difficulty on race events in this day and age is just as absurd as the catch-up format.
 
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One of the things that has let Gran Turismo down in recent years is the AI. They seem weak, overly cautious and too slow to be a serious issue for most people. GT7 can have all the bells, whistles and nostalgia it wants but without competent AI, I fear that the whole experience will be ruined. This is such an important factor for the future and PD HAVE TO get it right. There is no excuse in this day and age to have such pathetic AI who will not fight for position and fail to provide some kind of competition. I honestly don't know how PD will turn this around if history has taught us anything.

They won't "get it right" in the sense of what you're looking for. It's not that they can't, it's that they don't want to. For whatever reason, they believe that the AI they give is the right choice to make a great game. This, to them, is "fun".

They've been making Gran Turismo for nearly 25 years, they have had more than enough time and resources to make the AI into whatever they want it to be. If they wanted to have great AI, they'd have made it by now or hired someone to do it for them. There's no shortage of people able to program more competent AI than the GT series has had. That it is the way it is speaks to a conscious decision on the part of Yamauchi and the other designers at Polyphony.

The quality of the AI has dipped down ever since online racing became a thing. My best memories of competing against the AI are from GT4 where teenage me had countless challenging races against them on the Nurburgring.

Not to pooh-pooh you having fun as a good time is a good time no matter how you have it, but the AI in GT4 were notoriously garbage. GT4 level AI isn't even mildly acceptable in a game in 2021.
 
I hold out very little hope for the AI in GT7, it's been a weakness of the series for a long time, and quite frankly I don't think they will ever get it right.

what's even more stupifying is that small teams such as Sector3 with R3E and even the mods done via CSP extensions (by a single person) for AC offer some of the most balanced and competitive AI around. PD really have no excuse at all for the sorry state that GT's AI is and has remained over the years.

 
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GT Sports AI isn't that bad... If you made custom race on PRO difficulty. They are far from perfect, but it is much better than in career mode. Don't know why only custom race have this better AI, but it is much better than in other parts of the game.
 
GT Sports AI isn't that bad... If you made custom race on PRO difficulty. They are far from perfect, but it is much better than in career mode. Don't know why only custom race have this better AI, but it is much better than in other parts of the game.
What? With a bit practice, everyone can win against the AI drivers, that’s no „fight“ wheel to wheel..
 
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GT Sports AI isn't that bad

When you can beat cars three or four categories above your own with relative ease? Yes, it is that bad. And yes, I am talking about custom races. They're better than the career mode, but in the same way chocolate tastes better off a dirty floor compared to eating it out of a week old trash. Both still pretty damn awful.


That was using 4 PS4 consoles AND a separate high powered PC just to calculate the AI of one car with no traffic. Nothing like that is going to be appearing in GT7.
 
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Honestly just copy paste the B spec AI from GT6. It has some imperfections here and there but it's still much faster than the AI every GT since GT5 has where they give up as soon as you get alongside them. That B spec AI is quite fast and even has the ability to go full send whenever it wants to.
Here a full race for perspective (start 1:32)
Here a full send
 
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Not to pooh-pooh you having fun as a good time is a good time no matter how you have it, but the AI in GT4 were notoriously garbage. GT4 level AI isn't even mildly acceptable in a game in 2021.

You're right with that last sentence but I never suggested carrying over GT4's AI to GT7. All I said was that GT4's AI was incomparibly better for racing [than GT5's]. I've read a lot of criticism that it has no situational awareness and pushes you off the track at times but that is something you can adapt to and still have fun (speaking from my personal experience of course). On the other hand having opponents who baby you around is something that I find inherently not fun because it ruins the direct interaction with other cars on the track. In the real world you will see drivers barging their way past someone else to get ahead but you'll never see someone waving by their opponent simply because they've managed to pull alongside, as if it's some kind of traffic rule. That is not racing. I haven't played any of the games in years now but I still remember wishing for a GT4 with 16 cars on the track after my disappointment with GT5 had sunk in. That is how bad I thought the updated AI was.
 
You're right with that last sentence but I never suggested carrying over GT4's AI to GT7. All I said was that GT4's AI was incomparibly better for racing [than GT5's]. I've read a lot of criticism that it has no situational awareness and pushes you off the track at times but that is something you can adapt to and still have fun (speaking from my personal experience of course). On the other hand having opponents who baby you around is something that I find inherently not fun because it ruins the direct interaction with other cars on the track. In the real world you will see drivers barging their way past someone else to get ahead but you'll never see someone waving by their opponent simply because they've managed to pull alongside, as if it's some kind of traffic rule. That is not racing. I haven't played any of the games in years now but I still remember wishing for a GT4 with 16 cars on the track after my disappointment with GT5 had sunk in. That is how bad I thought the updated AI was.

I agree, and I felt the same way about the AI in GT5. I'm just wary of holding up GT4 AI as particularly positive, even if it's possibly the peak of the GT single player AI.

If the choice is between AI that lets me win and AI that is oblivious but at least quick-ish then I'll take the latter. But really, it feels like both of those choices suck and that there should be something better. Asking for AI with basic situational awareness, a decent range of capability that can provide a reasonable challenge to players of all speeds, and maybe even just a little bit of personality shouldn't really be that big a deal in 2021.

Difficulty is the one that continues to boggle my mind. I mean, difficulty selection for opponents has been around for at least thirty years and yet GT still sticks with it's "one size fits all" approach to difficulty selection. Which is objectively and demonstrably incapable of satisfying all gamers - there is no single AI setting that adequately challenges players that are 20+ seconds a lap apart from each other. In something like F1 2020 it takes a few races for me to dial into just the right setting for me, and then I get to have super close races where if I do well I feel like I actually achieved something. If I want the "GT experience" I can have that too, but at least it gives me the opportunity to have a challenge if I want.
 
Every racing game these days has AI that you can adjust to your liking. It's a requirement so Gran Turismo has to adapt their game whether they like it or not. The game should be a challenge from day 1; you shouldn't have to wait until the big leagues to get more competition. That's not how it works in the real world, so why should Gran Turismo do it? Amateur competitions such as autocross can be extremely competitive so there's no reason for entry level events to be easy. The player should dictate the difficulty of the game, not the other way around.
 
That's the thing, PD make the game how they want the players to play. It's never been about here is the game, you play how you want to play.
 
To add, AI shouldn't be track specific. The worse AI, are at Bathurst. It's appalling at such a world reknown circuit, if a player follows that AI, it's met with crawling pace from The Cutting to McPhillamy Park. CArs moving over and slowing down around Nurburgring 24H & Nordschliefe.

AI also shouldn't be car specific as mentioned above. GT4 was notorious for that. Especially, my favorite event: Tuning Car GP at Apricot Hill. Opera Performance S2000 is king.

Agreed. Other games can do it, why can't PD? ACC and F1 for example have great AI
 
That's the thing, PD make the game how they want the players to play. It's never been about here is the game, you play how you want to play.

Making a game that requires you to play in a certain way is one thing, making a game that really only suits people of a very specific skill level is another.

If you're making an RPG, it's fine to have everyone start hunting boars in the forest, work up to fighting orcs in the mountains and then go slay the dragon. But making it so that 90% of people will find the boars and orcs boringly easy probably isn't great design, especially if you have the choice to be able to easily match boar challenge to player skill.

I know Gran Turismo cribs a lot from RPG design, but ultimately it isn't one. It doesn't have the story, characters and worldbuilding that can carry an RPG through boring or grindy periods. Gran Turismo is nearly pure gameplay, and so making the gameplay engaging and enjoyable as much of the time as possible makes for a better game. Polyphony can still exert massive amounts of control over how the player plays the game in the sense of structure and progress, but the challenge needs to be properly matched to the player.
 
Well if I'm playing devil's advocate here I'd say that even though GT Sport was online-focused and the AI wasn't the main part of the experience, that game has the most advanced AI we've seen in the series so far (custom-race professional AI) so that shows that at least they've been working on it to some degree even when it arguably wasn't a priority.

Yet in the part of the single player suite that actually matters (and the one part of the game that they added after backlash when it absolutely could have been present at launch) the AI is still as moronic as it has ever been, except now it bins it in corners with somewhat noticeable regularity.

So yeah, if they've been working on it, I'm seeing absolutely no changes, in the one place that actually matters, considering they're making a big to-do about bringing back classic GT gameplay loops and basically pandering to nostalgia in order to instill back trust into the fanbase after giving them the middle finger.

I know Gran Turismo cribs a lot from RPG design, but ultimately it isn't one. It doesn't have the story, characters and worldbuilding that can carry an RPG through boring or grindy periods. Gran Turismo is nearly pure gameplay, and so making the gameplay engaging and enjoyable as much of the time as possible makes for a better game. Polyphony can still exert massive amounts of control over how the player plays the game in the sense of structure and progress, but the challenge needs to be properly matched to the player.

This. This is the crux of the argument and what makes me want to tear my hair out with regards to the CarPG structure that GT has slavishly shackled itself to. The only reason why the CarPG structure worked as well as it did was because games at the time of the original GT's were a lot smaller in scale. You certainly weren't going to sell to the general public with a game that was, for all intents and purposes, a sim as the time saw it. The CarPG aspects worked in that regard.

The problem is that the formula grew old, stale. It certainly wasn't helped that every Japanese publisher under the sun tried their hand at the same structure and almost all of them failed, with the only real competitor coming years after the fact and succeeding because it actually built upon the CarPG system and fleshed it out, alongside offering everything that GT didn't have (and wouldn't have for years after the fact) Yet PD, and Kaz specifically, have never had any pushback in trying to reinvent the wheel or present anything new. They just continue trotting it out, with no changes, and it gets lapped up by GT fans who should know better. The structure is rotten, it is boring, and basically is a relic of gameplay design that the racing game genre, with the exception of GT, have all but abandoned because it is an active detriment to the one thing that is important to a racing game: the actual racing.

Considering the fact that the entire genre has shifted towards realism overall, it boggles the mind that alongside the continued insistence on trotting out the CarPG formula as a founding pillar, that the AI makes this even worse for the reasons you outlined. By this point, a fair few games in the genre have good AI that at the very least put up a decent fight and don't make dirty driving and a devil may care attitude rewarding - Codemasters games, with a few exceptions, are great examples of this, alongside Scaff's video evidence up thread. And those examples are from small teams, not a development studio that is more or less the Japanese jewel in Sony's development studio crown, a studio that is absolutely getting special treatment and coddling since Playstation's development teams have almost all but gone towards Western studios exclusively with a few second party exceptions.

Yet this really doesn't matter because I've become more or less cognizant of the fact that Kaz won't be pushed on this topic, like many things, and that considering that PD is doing all hands on deck to try and appeal to nostalgia (quite cynically, I might add) that the AI will still be, at it's core, the same AI that's been present since GT4, and probably earlier, just with the GT Sport coat of paint that is the magical ability to bin it in corners noticeably.
 
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I know I want the A.I. to be competent, becuase at the moment GT A.I. is the opposite. Well even 'competent' A.I. can be subjective and mean different things to other people. So I have to ask, what does competent A.I. from this franchise mean for you?
 
I know I want the A.I. to be competent, becuase at the moment GT A.I. is the opposite. Well even 'competent' A.I. can be subjective and mean different things to other people. So I have to ask, what does competent A.I. from this franchise mean for you?

Outright speed and consistency are the two core issues. Right now they go slow when you're behind and speed up when you're ahead via a boost system, but even when they speed up they're still far too slow. PD know the laptimes that are possible with each car via testing, the hardest AI should match as close as possible to the fastest human times, then cascade down in difficulty.

You know, like every other racing game has done for the past 20 years.
 
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