The Buick Thread: Your Enclave for all things Buick

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Buick has been the "Lexus fighter" since GM decided to focus more on their products after getting Cadillac and Saturn figured out. Pontiac wants to increase their performance reputation similar to that of the low-lying sport/luxury brands... Nearly a cheap alternative to BMW.

They will be the first to get the Alpha chassis with the next G6, which is supposed to go RWD as early as 2011. The G5 is also reportedly going RWD, becoming the coupe variant of the G6.
 
Just got a job driving for a rental company - I'd strongly dispute that statement.

I guess we can elaborate on this statement now that we're in the proper thread (ie, not in the "Best Car" one).

What cars are we driving these days that trouble you? If its an Impala and a Malibu, G6 or a Grand Prix, I can understand. Move into the next-generation products, and it gets different really quickly.

Have you driven the new Theta triplets (Outlook/Acadia/Enclave)?

Have you driven the Aura?

What about the Lucerne?

Have you seen the '08 Malibu in person?

Same with the '08 CTS and STS?

How about those full-size GMT900 SUVs and the Silverado/Sierra?

And the updated '08 Corvette?

Have you seen or been close to the '08 Pontiac G8?

How about that Cobalt?

What about the Kappa (Solstice/Sky) twins?

I'd say the majority of those cars are damn good ones, despite the obvious idiotic models at GM. No single company ever does everything completely "right" (well, unless you live in Toyota la-la land), and with the current generational gaps currently in place in many of the companies, we're going to have to wait for the crap models to be either redesigned, replaced, or just killed-off altogether.

...GM and Ford are both getting better (can't say much for Chrysler these days), but you can't expect a sudden change all at once on all of their products. The good stuff is coming, trust me, as we're finally getting away from the "America-only" days of the '70s and '80s.

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And on that note, in all seriousness, Buick is intended to be the "Lexus fighter." The brass at GM once suggested that Saturn should do it by replacing Oldsmobile as the "Lexus fighter," but level heads prevailed, and that task was given to Buick.

Why?

Well, simply put, GM decided that Cadillac was too good to be doing that. If Toyota still wants to sand-bag with pricing on Lexus models like they always have, they're going to be better off knocking gloves with BMW and Mercedes, like they have decided. Using Buick to fight Lexus basically allows GM to do what Toyota did to them, offering similarly performing, occasionally equally nice (Change is coming!), for a lower price.

The Enclave is shot number one from the Buick revolver, and its packing a hollow point. In every sense of the word, the Enclave has either matched or surpassed the RX350 (IMO), and done so at a cheaper price as well. The Enclave is quieter, better looking, and may eventually see a V8 option as well. Sure, it doesn't have a hybrid option (who cares?) and it may not have the Lexus reputation in quality, but Buick stands right behind Lexus in quality tests... And thats pretty damn good considering the neighbors over in Lansing build them for us.

Did I mention there is actually a wait list for the Enclave? When was the last time you've heard of a wait list for a Buick? GM is already having problems filling orders, as they are coming in too quick, and it is blowing their projected sales of the crossover out of the water. People are buying the crossovers sight unseen in places like New York, and that NEVER happens.

...Either way, Buick is getting better, now that GM has decided to turn their attention to the ailing brand. Getting Cadillac and Saturn sorted out has turned out exceptionally well for the company, and I assume much the same for Buick if they can do the products right, and furthermore, at the right price. The Chinese LaCrosse you saw earlier is indeed what GM is planning on doing here in the US by 2010, fully aligning Buick USA with Buick China, making Buick a full-run luxury company like it should have been years ago.

First we get the Enclave, then we may or may not get the Chinese LaCrosse (crossing my fingers for "may"), we will likely see the Park Avenue come here (read Holden Caprice, full-size luxury Commodore), and furthermore after the LaCrosse switches to the Epsilon II chassis in 2009 (ish), we will likely see an entry-level luxury car from Buick as well (reportedly called Skylark).

...The return of the Regal/Grand National likely depends on if they keep the name "LaCrosse" or not, but word is they want a Grand National no matter what. Presumably based on the Camaro/GTO/Monaro, the GN will likely bring in younger and "more mature" buyers by comparison to the bowtie and arrowhead crowd, and it may be what Buick needs to get the ball rolling more than ever before.

Lets be frank for a moment here: If we could get a GN to come back with a turbo Atlas 4.2 or some kind of turbo V6 to go up against the GS, that would just be awesome. Not because Buick would actually have a chance against the Lexus, but because its our way of giving Toyota the finger, and showing that we still know how to do things...

...That is, if we still know how to do things...

I'm confident in Lutz and Wagoner these days (I recall a time when I wanted Wagoner's head on a stick), and I'm sure they will do the best for Buick.
 
Lets be frank for a moment here: If we could get a GN to come back with a turbo Atlas 4.2...

Wait, Isn't that a Straight Six?

Turbo Straight six. Beat Lexus with a "Supra." That's Irony. But i'd say a V6 would be more likely. I think the Atlas is a truck motor, right? or am I entirely mistaken? Is it even a I-6?
 
Yes, the Atlas 4.2 is a straight-six that has 291 BHP out of the box. Its a rather punchy-motor, quiet and smooth as well. We've got one in our Envoy, and I like it, despite the idiot who owns it (ie, Step Mom).

There was a turbo Atlas Trailblazer prototype a few years back, and they were planning on doing something like that until they figured out they could stick the LS2 in there. It may be the reason why they've pretty much given up on the Atlas design after the GMT360s die.

If they do a turbo V6, it would likely use the LY7 or LLT as the base, although they could go the Aussie route and just use the Saab 2.8t as the engine of choice. A turbo LY7 would probably be good for 350 BHP at the very least, and it wouldn't take much to move it up to 400 BHP. Using the LLT may be a bit more difficult since it is direct-injection, but they've done so on the LN1 (I think thats the name) from the Solstice/Sky, so a 375-400 BHP version isn't out of the question there either.

...GM may just be crazy enough to do it, but it likely depends on how they are making their decisions...

A few years back, PD over at GM held a meeting for high-ranking Buick dealers in Detroit to discuss future vehicles with the company. At the time, we were on the end of the Regal/Century and Park Avenue era, and there were options as to what Buick could do. So, Lutz (who was head of PD at the time, still is to some extent) offered two distinct models to replace the Regal/Century (the Lucerne was already going...);

1) The LaCrosse as we have it today, bland but decent front-driver with a good amount of room based on the solid running gear the W-Body offers.

2) The Park Avenue as we have it today (in China), but in the smaller form (think Commodore), with rear-wheel-drive and a slew of luxury and sport (ish) options.

Guess which one they picked?

...Lets hope we don't ask the dealers ever again...
 
Well, of course, the dealers want to go with the one they KNOW they can sell. I know if I were a Dealer, I'd want the one I know how to unload on people, the one I've been selling for years, than something radically new and different, that might sell, might not. It's playing the risk game.

Too bad the majority were buisnessmen first, and not Car Guys first.

On the Atlas Turbo: I've heard that the Atlas is too tall for a car. Perhaps if they took the design and "Slanted" it, (Like Chrysler,) Shortened the block and bored it out, or dry-sumped it, It might work.

Or, (I must be crazy) Purchase Nissan's RB design like Holden did in the early '90s...
 
well, okay, you got me there, having lived there yourself, you probably know more, but still, I think it'd be more of a purchase deal, as Nissan phases out (Or has phased out) the RB series for the VQ series.

IF G.M. and Nissan were crazy enough to make such a deal. which, I'm pretty sure, they aren't.
 
I guess we can elaborate on this statement now that we're in the proper thread (ie, not in the "Best Car" one).

What cars are we driving these days that trouble you? If its an Impala and a Malibu, G6 or a Grand Prix, I can understand. Move into the next-generation products, and it gets different really quickly.

Have you driven the new Theta triplets (Outlook/Acadia/Enclave)?

Have you driven the Aura?

What about the Lucerne?

Have you seen the '08 Malibu in person?

Same with the '08 CTS and STS?

How about those full-size GMT900 SUVs and the Silverado/Sierra?

And the updated '08 Corvette?

Have you seen or been close to the '08 Pontiac G8?

How about that Cobalt?

What about the Kappa (Solstice/Sky) twins?

I'd say the majority of those cars are damn good ones, despite the obvious idiotic models at GM.

The GM products I've driven thus far are:
- Cadillac DTS
- Chevrolet Aveo
- Chevrolet Cobalt
- Chevrolet Malibu
- Chevrolet Trailblazer
- Chevrolet Uplander
- GMC Yukon
- Pontiac Grand Prix

I can list specific complaints with all of them, but you can probably guess. The only two I liked were the two SUVs. Sure Brad - the GM products coming out in the future are probably better than the ones out today. But products from competitors will be, too. Will GM be up to par? History says no. You ask if I've driven an '08 Malibu. No - but so what? The '04 Malibu was no huge event, nor was the '97. Why do I believe the '08 will be any different?

No single company ever does everything completely "right"

Well, GM seems to do everything consistently wrong.

Don't worry though - as much as I've disliked GM's vehicles, the Fords I've driven (including the new Edge) have been notably worse.
 
The GM products I've driven thus far are:
- Cadillac DTS
- Chevrolet Aveo
- Chevrolet Cobalt
- Chevrolet Malibu
- Chevrolet Trailblazer
- Chevrolet Uplander
- GMC Yukon
- Pontiac Grand Prix

...Now I understand. About half of those are going to be dead for 2008, or at least continue on in GM's "Classic" fleet sales deal for one more year.

I thought the Uplander died for 2007, but I may have been wrong. Good ideas, poor execution, and now its turning into an SUV... Which the Trailblazer and Equinox will likely be rolled into as well.

With the Aveo, I haven't had much time with the updated '07 model, but from what I recall the origional one wasn't horrible (for a Korean car), but it was pretty good (for a Korean car). Good news is that we're getting the Corsa next time around, and that will be the global basis for GM's small car market.

Take a look at what GM Europe and GM Australia (Holden) have, and you can get a pretty good idea of whats coming down the pipe in the next few months/years.

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Oh, and good news! Buick is building the Velite!

LLN.com
General Motors will build a production version of its 2004 Buick Velite concept by the end of the decade, Troy Clarke, president of GM North America told Car and Driver in a recent interview.

The Velite was previewed as a convertible, but the automaker will likely build both sedan and convertible variants, according to the magazine. It will be built on GM's Zeta architecture.

While a final name has not yet been picked, GM is open to keeping the Velite badge. Velite will be Buick's only rear-wheel-drive vehicle, according to Clarke. All other models will remain front-drive.



Too bad about the Velite being the only RWD model (I think thats a cover-up), but as long as they throw the GN name at a hard-top version with a Turbo V6 or a nice V8 (GS anyone?), I'll be a very happy man.
 
Yes, the Atlas 4.2 is a straight-six that has 291 BHP out of the box. Its a rather punchy-motor, quiet and smooth as well. We've got one in our Envoy, and I like it, despite the idiot who owns it (ie, Step Mom).

In my opinion the 4.2L I6 is actually my 2nd favorite current GM engine behind the LS2. A turbo/twin turbo version of this engine would automatically give it some balls. 420bhp+ I'd estimate.


I would pay with my own money to buy that. That's awsome.
 
With the Aveo, I haven't had much time with the updated '07 model, but from what I recall the origional one wasn't horrible (for a Korean car), but it was pretty good (for a Korean car). Good news is that we're getting the Corsa next time around, and that will be the global basis for GM's small car market.

Drove a 2006, without the new updates. The interior wasn't horrible, but 'budget grade' doesn't even begin to describe it. On the other hand, I drove the all-new Kia Rio sedan and was unbelievably surprised at how good the interior was for the price. I know what I'd buy.
 
The Velite is a VERY attractive alternative to the SC430. If I were G.M., I'd modify one to GT500 specs just to stick it to Toyota.
 
Too bad about the Velite being the only RWD model (I think thats a cover-up), but as long as they throw the GN name at a hard-top version with a Turbo V6 or a nice V8 (GS anyone?), I'll be a very happy man.

I can live with Buick being the FWD luxury brand and Cadillac being the RWD luxury brand if we do end up seeing this Velite.

Please, GM, do a twin turbo High Feature 3.6 V6. And black out all the chrome trim. You'll make a lot of people very happy.
 
I know what I'd buy.

...And I'd be right behind you. A co-worker bought a Rio not too long ago and I really liked it. Then I checked out the Rio5 for myself, and I was really impressed. Too bad the resale value is cut in half after drive it off the lot, and furthermore, Kia charges you an arm and a leg to finance...

Jim Prower
The Velite is a VERY attractive alternative to the SC430. If I were G.M., I'd modify one to GT500 specs just to stick it to Toyota.

Skip
I can live with Buick being the FWD luxury brand and Cadillac being the RWD luxury brand if we do end up seeing this Velite.

Please, GM, do a twin turbo High Feature 3.6 V6. And black out all the chrome trim. You'll make a lot of people very happy.

I'm happy to hear that people like it. Its a big step forward for the Buick brand as a whole, and assuming they they would offer it as a hardtop and as a convertible, I think we're probably looking at a low-budget IS350 fighter. Unless of course its bigger than I think.

There are multiple chassis pieces that are usable on the Zeta chassis to make it different sizes, and I'd assume this would use all three of the "Short" pieces Lutz has described several times.

...I wouldn't count-out a turbocharged 3.6L, but they may just head straight for the LTT 300 BHP Direct-Injection V6 to start...
 
The Velite is a VERY attractive alternative to the SC430. If I were G.M., I'd modify one to GT500 specs just to stick it to Toyota.
An alternative!? It almost look like a clone in that picture!

It is nice looking, but wasn't there also a Buick that look like a Infiniti or Altima, earlier in this thread too?
 
Update!

Autoblog
buick_park_ave.jpg

Judging by the positive reception the Chinese-marketed Buicks have been receiving here in the States, GM would be ill-advised to continue offering the same warmed-over products that it's been selling over the past decade. According to Automotive News, the General sees the writing on the wall and intends to go global with the new look of Buick, originally shown at the Shanghai Motor Show in the shape of the Riviera concept.

The idea is to make Buick an affordable luxury brand here in the States, and it has plans on offering a number of new vehicles to the U.S. market that will take on the high-end competitors from Japan.

To begin with, the Excelle, a small sedan, is set to be released sometime in 2008, based off the Alpha platform currently under development in Germany, while the next iteration of the LaCrosse will come in 2009 and will be based off of GM's Epsilon 2 underpinnings. The Lucerne will get a full makeover in 2011 and will be built around the RWD Zeta platform, and the Rainier, Rendezvous and Terraza will die off after the current production run, and replaced with the new Enclave.

Buick's move to become more things to more people is the only way the marque will survive, and judging by what's in the pipeline, the automaker actually has a chance at success.

I first want to make note of the "2008 Excelle" based on the Alpha chassis, as I think that is a bit wishful in terms of whats coming down the pipe. Everything that has been passed down discretely from GM over at GMI has said that we probably won't see the Alpha chassis on the street until 2009 or 2010 at the absolute earliest, but now that it sounds as though development is being handled by Opel (and not just GMNA and Holden), that may have been pushed-up. The other note to make is over the name, as most of the GM sources have been saying that "Skylark" is more likely to come back for the new small car, and on that note, the new EpsilonII-based LaCrosse replacement is reportedly going to be called "Regal" again.

Still, clearly there is movement afoot at GM to make Buick a hot brand again. There has been semi-confirmed reports that the Velite may or may not be headed for production (thank the new fuel economy standards), but the note that the Lucerne will probably become the US-version of the Chinese Park Avenue (read Holden Caprice), that is very good indeed.
 
It won't happen for a while, calendar 2009 for the 2010 model year at the earliest I'd assume. Cadillac needs to decide what the hell they're going to do with the L-Body before anything, and with most signs pointing towards Caddy picking up Zeta as well, things look good for the Park Avenue coming here... Something that every GM fan has been demanding for the past year.

I think Lutz realized he screwed up letting the dealers decide they wanted the Lucerne, so it sounds as though they are working as fast as they can to get the car here.
 
I think Lutz realized he screwed up letting the dealers decide they wanted the Lucerne, so it sounds as though they are working as fast as they can to get the car here.
Which is actually kind of an odd thing to do. For a massed produced car like the Lucerne, I'd say GM is at about as close to it can be to selling every one they make. It costs them nothing to make, they are bought exclusively by Buick's more "traditional" clientele, and GM dealers make big fat profits on the car (as does GM itself). Killing off the Lucerne when it is as popular as it is would be a ghastly mistake, especially if Lutz is getting senile in his old age and thinks people would actually care about a dynamically exciting Buick. Spreading out the chassis among brands is a great price reducing strategy, but only if it doesn't replace a popular model that is cheaper to make regardless.
 
I would like to know how much of a difference there would be in costs between say a Lucerne Super versus that of a Park Avenue CXS. Given that the L-Body is quite a lot older than the Zeta models, GM will likely be building more Zetas by the time production reaches full swing (sometime next year), and furthermore, with the proliferation of the LS2/L76 and LS3/L92 and the six-speed automatics that go with them, bits and pieces have to becoming cheaper as well.

I dunno. If I were GM, I'd think it is worth taking a risk on Buick to build a superior driving, riding, handling, and not to mention looking model like the Park Avenue over that of the Lucerne, no matter how much some people (like me) like it. Given that the car probably wouldn't go for much over $40K and would be as close to a "Lexus-fighter" as Buick is going to get any time soon, why not?

I do have high hopes for Buick getting closer to the goal of being the closest American competitor to Lexus, my further hope being that their cars actually gain some character in the process. Plain and simple, the Buick generation is dying out, and they're going to have to do their best to try and capture new buyers with semi-luxury vehicles that actually say something about the driver than "One foot in grave" or "Boring and white bread."

One would hope that the "Excelle" (I like Skylark better) will be enough to poke at the IS350, but you never know. The German-influenced chassis design certainly has promise, and the Chinese/American style holds a lot of promise as well. We just have to hope they can sell them at the right price, and equip them competitively. The exact same thing can be said of the "LaCrosse" (I like Regal better), which will be going to the EpsilonII chassis, and again one would hope that they can get a bit closer to the E350, which really isn't all that tough to beat anyway. That pretty much leaves the LS to the "Park Avenue" if they do end up doing it, which is a tough mark to go after, but if you're spending half as much and getting more than three quarters of the goodness, I'd call it a good deal.
 
I dunno. If I were GM, I'd think it is worth taking a risk on Buick to build a superior driving, riding, handling, and not to mention looking model like the Park Avenue over that of the Lucerne, no matter how much some people (like me) like it.
I agree. But the problem is, like it or not, Buicks are old people cars and always have been (with obvious exceptions, of course). No amount of marketing will ever change that, and I fear that attempting to force the issue will alienate Buick's traditional and very loyal (albeit old) clientele.

YSSMAN
I do have high hopes for Buick getting closer to the goal of being the closest American competitor to Lexus, my further hope being that their cars actually gain some character in the process. Plain and simple, the Buick generation is dying out, and they're going to have to do their best to try and capture new buyers with semi-luxury vehicles that actually say something about the driver than "One foot in grave" or "Boring and white bread."
That was the same argument leveled at Oldsmobile, and remember the drastic steps to rectify that (while ending up with great cars like the Aurora) killed the entire brand. You take away Buick's "image" and send it after Lexus and Acura and you start infringing on Saab's territory, not to mention Cadillac as you go higher.

YSSMAN
The exact same thing can be said of the "LaCrosse" (I like Regal better), which will be going to the EpsilonII chassis, and again one would hope that they can get a bit closer to the E350, which really isn't all that tough to beat anyway.
There is where I suggest leaving the Lucerne to target instead of killing it, honestly. Its a juicy segment with wide margins of profit, and leaving it behind (as this restructuring implies would occur) would be a bad move for Oldsmobile just like it would be for Cadillac and Mercury.

YSSMAN
That pretty much leaves the LS to the "Park Avenue" if they do end up doing it, which is a tough mark to go after, but if you're spending half as much and getting more than three quarters of the goodness, I'd call it a good deal.
I can't honestly see GM targeting that market. I think "large, Buick RWD sedan" and what instantly springs to mind is "Roadmaster." Then again, that may be because I was growing up as those particular RWD sedans were dying out, but I'm sure GM would appreciate the irony of building another "Roadmaster" under a chassis shared by a car called the "Caprice," and at the same time selling a car called "Park Avenue" and delivering something with taut handling would probably throw people for a serious loop.
And GM would have to go through serious quality control to consider going after the LS on quality (because going after it on driving excitement doesn't step on the STS' toes so much as it smashes them with a hammer). And while I agree about declining Toyota quality of late, I can't say it effects Lexus, much less the LS. Remember, the LS is thought by many to give the German cars a run for their money in quality to make up for lack of fun. So the "half price for two thirds" wouldn't work for Buick as it does for Cadillac, and forcing it to do so by adding performance would steal Caddy sales.
 
That was the same argument leveled at Oldsmobile, and remember the drastic steps to rectify that (while ending up with great cars like the Aurora) killed the entire brand. You take away Buick's "image" and send it after Lexus and Acura and you start infringing on Saab's territory, not to mention Cadillac as you go higher.

Send Buick after Lexus; send Cadillac after Acura.

I bet GM doesn't understand the distinction.
 
Send Buick after Lexus; send Cadillac after Acura.

Acura is too low on the totem pole of car makers for Cadillac to go after. The officially unofficial target for most of the Cadillac cars is BMW, but they more or less end up going after Mercedes-Benz by day's end. To get a better idea how how things are "supposed" to happen:

Cadillac - BMW/Mercedes-Benz: It depends on who you ask, but I'd be more likely to call it a Mercedes-Benz game these days. Cadillac normally splits the difference between the two however, but now that Mercedes is actually making their vehicles fun to drive again, they are much closer than ever before in terms of performance.

Buick - Lexus: It has been GM's stance since Oldsmobile left, and I don't see it changing any time soon. They are supposed to be the "value-priced alternative" to the Lexus models, much the same in how Hyundai is trying to sell their new vehicles as well. The more Buick China models we get, the more the gap will shrink I believe.

Saab - Acura: Both want to play games with BMW, both pretty much are front or all-wheel-drive only, both are quirky and thusly have die-hard fan bases. Its like they were born to compete against one another.

Saturn - Honda/Volkswagen: The Volkswagen title is the official one at GM now that Saturn is grouped with Opel/Vauxhall, the prime competitors to VW in Europe. I threw Honda in simply because by comparison to Toyota, Hondas are "exciting" in much the same way Saturns are "exciting" by comparison to Chevrolets.

Pontiac - BMW (I'm not joking): The word continues to be mum at GM, but there is a pretty big movement going on to merge Pontiac and Holden together. If that is the case, particularly with cars like the Commodore, Monaro, and Torana (coming soon!), they have the 5-series, 6-series, and 3-series ready at half the price.

Chevrolet- Toyota: GM's value brand against Toyota's value brand, it doesn't get any more simple than that.
 
New LaCrosse news:


LLN.com
Spy photographers have spotted a prototype of the all-new 2010 Buick LaCrosse — complete with Buick's signature grill prominent on the front end. Codenamed GMX353, the new LaCrosse will be the first car in the United States to ride on the new global front-wheel drive Epsilon II platform.

According to our sources, the new Buick will be assembled at GM's Fairfax facility starting in February of 2009. The LaCrosse should hit dealer showrooms in mid-2009 as a 2010 model. LaCrosse annual production is expected to be in the 65,000 to 75,000 range.

Its looking decent through the cammo, and quite honestly, I'm surprised they've got one in full-dress so quick. I had assumed that the Vectra and 9-3 would have debuted first, but it looks like the Buick may go right by the Saab. If they can pull off the style shown in the Enclave and Lucerne with this new LaCrosse, I don't think they'll have too much of a problem selling these cars.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in Chicago (presumably).
 
I hardly think a high-rear rising beltline is necessary on a Buick. Especially when it creates boring-looking panels the size of Portugal. And if they do a Bengal Butt I will murder the designer in his sleep.
 
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