The Element of Challenge

[JohnBM01]

The Real Driving Simulator. Critics will quickly debate, contest, draw out, analyze, nit-pick, or whatever the hell people want to do with the game. And this means anyone- your average Joe or Jill, GTPlanet members, ign.com, GameSpot, GameSpy, Electronic Gaming Monthly (EGM), 1up, Official PlayStation Magazine, you name it. Being on GTPlanet for more than a year and a half now, I've provided my mind on all sorts of subjects regarding the Gran Turismo series. I provided my sympathy, my humor, my anger, the damndest shred of criticism that I can humanly generate and type on a keyboard and deliver to a message board. But now, here is a topic that's been mentioned before, even by yours truly, but not in its own thread. GTPlanet, this is about the level of challenge the next GT should offer to satisfy every taste.

I tried to race Gran Turismo 4 so that I'm not at a pure disadvantage. I remember GT3- my first car was a strange choice. I went with (and succeded) with a silver Chrysler PT Cruiser. I think with the leftover remains of my 18K, I tuned up the PT Cruiser a bit, and the first time out, I cleaned house in the Sunday Cup. The first real car I used to get a feel for Gran Turismo 4 racing as I used the VW Golf that I won from the License Tests. I just wanted to play-test what racing would be like in GT4. Didn't win my first race. I didn't try to overpower my car, I've NEVER ported credits from Gran Turismo 3 just to get a head start, I take every Gran Turismo the same- ALWAYS start from the beginning and never try to get an early egde. I don't own any cheating devices, nor do I plan to. Sure, you could still overpower your car and win races, and OF COURSE it's going to be easy, don't you think? Gran Turismo 4 is not easy. The game may still feel the same, but almost everything else is brand new.

So how does all this relate to the next GT? All I hope for is that it's challenging enough without people telling lies about GT4's toughness in races and all. Some say Gran Turismo 4 was too realistic, to the point where it gets to be a bit too challenging. I want the challenge to be realistic. I don't want to race Nurburgring Nordschleife (or any track about this long and this challenging) 50 times all to compete with peers who like racing extremely long tracks. Realistic challenges and feasible limits are my suggestions. What are yours? Reply now.

 

[SchuberT]

GT5? Seems like a GT4 thread... I must have missed the GT5 part.

I see it now.... I think GT4 was fine, and I'd like GT5 to be even more challenging.

 

[G25RJ]

I think that PD should come up with a good method of classifying the cars, display this classification some ware (in the garage for example), use this classification to set the limits for the races and every time I buy a part for a car the game should show me the if the class is going to change and to witch class the car is going to belong.

 

[inferno]

GT brought real racing to the consol market, and I hope GT5 will bring "PC sim" physics to the consol market. They have every opprotunity to do so. with the PS3 being as powerfull as any computer today. GT is first and foremost about the cars. Hot laps, tuning, and tweaking are at the center of it's purpose, but we need money to do those things. so we race. Thats how I feel anyway. But weather it's the racing or the free run that draws you to GT the most important thing is the physics. Except for cars that have them in real life, ASM and TCS should be parts you have to buy, instead of being allready on the car. save them for the beginners who can't handel the cars yet. Thats how i feel about the difficulty of the actual driving. Plain and simple, make it real. As far as difficulty of the AI. It should be smart and aggressive. It shouldn't cheat, and the competition should be set at a particular level. Just like it is now. people dont seem to notice that. It's just like real life. Their are several different levels of competition, and the type and tune of opponent cars is congruent with the liscense required to enter. for instance, In the regular liscense races you will always see road cars. In the international liscense races you will always see race cars. I'm sure it goes even deeper than that, but thats just one example. The point is if your car sucks you will lose badly. If you manage to snag a car that fits the rules but is just too good then you will dominate. just like in real life.

So, to sum all that up, Just make it real.

 

[Chris Criswell]

Any of the GT series are challenging, you just don't need to pour in thousands of dollars into your car to easily beat the competition, that's where people say it's easy.

Now the people that say it's hard seem to be the ones without the knowledge of Braking/Steering/Racing Lines or just haven't fixed up their car.



If you say it's too hard, fix up your car a bit more so you can have the similar skill/power as your opponents.

If you say the game is too easy, take off that Stage 4 Turbo kit, or put on some Economy/Road/Comfort tires and come back and tell us how it is...



(My two cents)

 

[JohnBM01]

Not to bring up another game, but when I played the Forza Motorsport demo, I used the NSX for the Class B races, mostly the Ferrari 360 Modena and Porsche 911 Turbo (is that it?) for the Class A races, then for the big racers, the Ferrari 333SP. When I dominated Laguna Seca in my NSX, it was because I knew the track, raced as hard as I could, and kept a consistent pace. Any dope can have a rocketship on the track, but it's all about control, patience, and just getting everything done right. The beauty of something like Gran Turismo and sportscar racing is that it's never about just one element. The keys for winning regardless of track conditions or competition goes like this:

good driver + good car + racing knowledge + track mastery = win race, no excuses

You can mix up a few according to driver and car, but if you can't win with the car, you can win by strategy. I thought some of the races were long and hard, but not impossible. Nothing to make you go to Burnout or Project Gotham instead. To me, you win because you drive the car as best as possible and don't dig a hole for yourself at every turn.

Something I realized in GT3 was that you can still win races even without overpowering your car. I tested this racing Tokyo R246 in the JGTC (Amateur Level) events. My ride was the Pennzoil Skyline GT-R. In one race, I added on heavy turbo, won pretty easy. But I took away the turbos, and still could win. And I did.

So staying on topic, what are the highest and lowest points of the challenge offered in Gran Turismo 4?

 

[[FPV]Rusty]

the process of making enough money from your winning early on to further yourself to the more advanced championships is enough of a challenge for myself at the moment, its well balanced. But the in race challenge for myself isn't enough, i like to think i am a pretty good racer as far as GT4 is concerned, others may find the AI in some catagories a challenge, but I dont, its a farce thinking I'll get a good fight, the Formula GT championship is a good example. I've just completed it and won every race. A feat Micheal Schumacher could not accomplish even last year, when it was comlplete domination. On the last race of the championship at Suzuka my fastest lap was about 1.35.???. compared to the next fastest competitor at aobtu 1.41.???. Maybe they are all sposed to be Minardi's? I did 14 laps, then handed over to my B-spec, I'd almost lapped 6th place by then, with about 40 laps remaining. Needless to say the whole championship was a fast, I was only in it for the winnings, and a Suaber C9 to my pleasent surprise. Obviously the lack of speed from the AI is probably down to PD wanting to give the less skilled among us a chance, why not have multiple skill diffuculties available??? Becuase Im sick of driving around in circles with not even a slight challenge from an opponent apparently running an identical car to mine.

Wow, what a rant.

 

[Dave A]

I think the AI in GT5 should be variable, in arcade mode and spot races, you can select the standard of competition, in the main events and championhips the AI should depend on you're win-A-spec point's ratio AND you're overall win ratio, ie, how many A-Spec points you average per win, the higher that number gets, the tougher the AI gets, if ylou're consistently winning 200 point races, you're not being challenged. If the best you can manage to win are under 10 points, the AI should get slower. Now, you could always just outgun the AI and win every race with 1 point and the AI would keep getting slower, which is where you're win ratio comes in. If you're winning all you're races, and you're A-spec points are low, the AI gets higher, so the lower you're points are, will lower the AI speed, IF you're win ratio is below a certain ammount, if it's higher then the AI will sget harder ujntil you're win ratio stops increasing.

I've not spent too much time to think about this idea in too much depth, so I may have overlooked a point or two. Anyway, I'm more keen on the idea of AI that can tuine it'self to match you.

 

[greenlightning]

To me the game should allow the user as much freedom as possible. The way the races are set-up in GT4 is kind of a drag. You should be able to jump in any car you want and be able to enter just about any race. The race set-ups in GT2 was great, open clases with only horse power limits. Right now in GT4, feel that I am limited to much on what car I have to drive etc. Takes alot of the fun out of the game, and is a big reason why I do not play it as much as I would of expected myself to. Anyway I think we can almost asume that GT5 will have more cars on the track, that in it's self will increase the challenge.

 

[JohnBM01]

You know one weird thing I've noticed about GT4? The GT World Championship is the last race of the PROFESSIONAL EVENTS. As much as I consider Grand Valley the signature race track of the Gran Turismo series, I consider the GT World Championship the signature race series of the Gran Turismo franchise. It is the ultimate racing series in which Gran Turismo heroes and heroines are crowned in the number one championship in th game. To me, I think the game was kind of designed so that you had an easy pace early on, then much tougher much later. That proved to be the case in this game. You go from Sunday Cup to GT World, all the way up to Formula GT.

Do you think the challenge in GT is just right for any difficulty level? If so, why? If not, what would make things acceptable for all difficulty levels give or take a few tough or easy races?

 

[Eric.]

As for AI difficulty, they should make it so that the AI gets better as you get better. Each race should have either different sets of cars to best compete with your car, or be sort of like NFSU1 where you select the difficulty to determine your opponents skill/cars and the reward for the race. They could just put that -10 to +10 difficulty slider in there before each race. Speaking of the Formula cars, I was racing them in arcade last night and noticed a couple odd things. First, my horsepower showed to be 892 or something like that, to their 904. Secondly, I lowered my horsepower 20% (713) and was still able to pass them on the straight of Infineon?! What the hell? Do they really drive conservatively on the straight to try and save fuel? It was a 30 lap race, we all pitted once for new tires, used about half a tank of fuel total. That was at the "+1" difficulty. There should be a "+10" with the F1s from what I've seen. Is the AI stronger in the Formula GT series?

As for making it real, I agree that traction and stability systems should only be on cars that come with them or you must buy them. Some cars have the ability to switch it off, some don't. Some cars only come in automatic, so they should simulate a real automatic. You should have the choice of transmissions in cars that have options. I think that when you buy the car you should have a choice of some options for it. Be able to pick the engine, body style (coupe, sedan, wagon), and drivetrain (trucks or whatnot, 2wd or 4WD).

I'm for keeping license tests and missions the same difficulty though.

 

[Dave A]

I dissagree strongly with the driving aids and transmission, I use my DS2 mostly and I'll be damnned if I'm being forced to drive my fave cars in manual with the pad, I only use that with the DFP. As for driving aids, I thionk that would just make a load of not as good players peeved and some cars may even become obsolete because of the huge power they deliver.

As for buying a car and then choosing body style, you do that by just selecting a different model. If you want the Impreza estate, just choose an Impreza estate, same goes for wanting the Sedan. If you want a 2wd verion of a truck, buy the 2wd version, I don't see a need to complicate things. Different drive trains and bodie types cost different ammounts, the coupe's usually cost more The cars can vary quite a bit too, for example a coupe can have xxx wheelbase, the estate version's is longer ect.

 

[JohnBM01]

And for you non-European types, "estate" to Europeans is "station wagon" for many of us Americans.

I can remember a game in which you can race automatic or manual at first, but in later races, you can choose manual only. And I'm talking about 1996's "Rage Racer." When you got through with about three championships and won them all, the Level 4 cars and all are manual ONLY. Meaning if you wanted to be successful, get one of the manual cars. Or do like me and upgrade your old car. In that game, the Gnade Esperanza was the first car you get, and is probably the best. I don't think manual shifting will make much of a difference. When I did the Grand Valley 300km in GT2, I used a Castrol Supra (1999 model, I believe) and manually shifted with my old steering wheel. It didn't have a shifter knob, so I used some trigger buttons.

Regardless, it shouldn't really be a big deal what transmission you use. Of course for me, I've raced GT4 for something like 3 months. And all the racing I've done was all in Automatic.

 

[Dave A]

Yep I remeber Rage racer, the only track I ever used a manual car for was the oval and I used the LeMans type car, the rest of them were wasted imo.

 

[Canadian Speed]

To me the game should allow the user as much freedom as possible. The way the races are set-up in GT4 is kind of a drag. You should be able to jump in any car you want and be able to enter just about any race. The race set-ups in GT2 was great, open clases with only horse power limits. Right now in GT4, feel that I am limited to much on what car I have to drive etc. Takes alot of the fun out of the game, and is a big reason why I do not play it as much as I would of expected myself to. Anyway I think we can almost asume that GT5 will have more cars on the track, that in it's self will increase the challenge.

I agree with this 100 and 10%. I miss the race set up of GT2. Very easy parameters to follow, that made for very competitive races. (Off topic, I also liked the multiple prize car set up of GT3, kept you comming back for more). That being said, I find that GT4 is just toooo wide open. It makes winning either impossible, or simply way to easy. I hope they adress this a bit better in GT5 as well as future installments of the game. I'd also like to see certain races repeated, but at certain skill levels. What I mean is that you'd have a Sunday Cup A, B, IA, ect. Each adding laps, and or cars with more horsepower. So in the A, your set up would be 250hp or less and 2 laps. And in the B, 350hp or less and 5 laps, ect. Also seeing similar cars. So to start, you may have a stock Skyline, racing against other car like it, stock Imprezza, A4, what ever. In the B, you now have beefier Skylines, Imprezzas, ect. and it wouldn't be until you reach IB that you start to see the racers. I'd also like to see another set of licences, or classification. An Indy class, where it's not just one set of races, but several sets of races with various kinds of Indy cars, at least an NA and a turbo model to choose from. All of these factors would help to make for a more competitive game I think.