The Trump Impeachment Thread

[Dotini]

Tomorrow a vote is scheduled to formalize impeachment proceeding against Donald Trump. This will be the third impeachment attempt in my lifetime, so a fairly rare event. There have been several impeachments of sitting US presidents over history, though none to my knowledge have succeeded in conviction and formal removal. Perhaps this will be the first?

Wikipedia may be a good place to start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_inquiry_against_Donald_Trump

Please feel free to chip in pro or con, ask questions, add new developments or historical commentary as you see fit. Cartoons are fine (by me) too, though there is perhaps a more correct thread for those.

Tell us how you feel. Let it all hang out.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

If the allegations against him have merit (a large amount of evidence/testimony publicly known seems to support them) then his actions are indefensible, as they constitute a pretty significant crime with genuine national security implications - at least more so than a tug job.... He should be duly impeached and removed. Hello President Pence.

But I don't think that will happen. My feeling is that the evidence will become too great for the GOP to defend against and their process arguments are becoming increasing untenable. What happens when they move on? One possibility I see is the Senate majority switching tactics and going from defending his actions to condemning his actions, perhaps even censuring the President, but not voting to remove him. That would allow them to escape an appearance of complete lawlessness without cannibalizing one of their own.

 

[CinnamonOD]

It'll be counterproductive for the 2020 Democrat hopes either way

Trump is impeached? Say hello to Mike Pence, someone who people rightfully refer to as a monster, then what, pit him against whoever steals the Democratic Primaries?
Impeachement proceedings failed? 2020 Elections will be a piece of cake for President Trump, because at this point, if the Democratic Party is pushing so hard to put depose Trump, just about one year before possibly leaving office, means that they don't see themselves winning as comfortably (or at all) as one would think, even with the massive support for them you see in many places (Social Media, MSM such as CNN and similars, and other internet platforms)

I can't see it actually proceeding, both chambers of congress have a Republican majority anyways.

 

[opelgt1969]

I don't think he'll be impeached in his second term as president either. The Dems have already shot their self in the foot already and have no one that will be able to beat him in 2020.

 

[CodeRedR51]

in his second term as president

You assume too much.

 

[NotThePrez]

You assume too much.

If he isn't removed from office, I'm pretty confident that Trump'll have a 2nd term, primarily because at that point, the Democratic Party will be seen as genuinely incompetent, especially since they haven't done much to make themselves look good over the past ~3 years, nor do their front-runners seem to have a coherent, consistent platform, other than "Trump bad, screw Trump," even though he is. While Trump should be impeached & removed from office due to his actions, do not underestimate the number of voters that see this as solely a party vs. party fight, rather than a Trump vs. the law fight.

 

[CodeRedR51]

If he isn't removed from office, I'm pretty confident that Trump'll have a 2nd term, primarily because at that point, the Democratic Party will be seen as genuinely incompetent, especially since they haven't done much to make themselves look good over the past ~3 years, nor do their front-runners seem to have a coherent, consistent platform, other than "Trump bad, screw Trump," even though he is. While Trump should be impeached & removed from office due to his actions, do not underestimate the number of voters that see this as solely a party vs. party fight, rather than a Trump vs. the law fight.

And hence why the government and voting system in this country sucks.

 

[Darla Starch]

And hence why the government and voting system in this country sucks.

With me as Supreme King of the United States, there'd be no need to worry about silly things as "voting".

 

[ryzno]

And hence why the government and voting system in this country sucks.

We're doing better than the UK and their Brexit/government and we do GET TO VOTE for our leader.
Just watching the threads here it seems their government is literally falling apart.

 

[eran0004]

We're doing better than the UK and their Brexit/government and we do GET TO VOTE for our leader.
Just watching the threads here it seems their government is literally falling apart.

I don’t know about that. The British PM is actually held accountable for their actions.

 

[Dotini]

Senator Schumer is worried Trump wants to create a government shutdown as a diversion away from impeachment.
https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/impeachment-collision-course-possible-shutdown



Also of interest:
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/468246-senate-gop-shifts-tone-on-impeachment

 

[BobK]

Trump is impeached? Say hello to Mike Pence

I read a news article which I can't find again this morning saying some Dems are talking about impeaching Pence as well.

Which if successful, would leave Pelosi as President. She could then sign into law all those bills we have to pass to find out what's in them.

 

[opelgt1969]

I read a news article which I can't find again this morning saying some Dems are talking about impeaching Pence as well.

Which if successful, would leave Pelosi as President. She could then sign into law all those bills we have to pass to find out what's in them.

Pelosi should be at the top of impeachment list just because she's Pelosi.

 

[jjaisli]

Maybe you were looking for this one...

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/trump-pence-ukraine-phone-calls-1512771

Where Trump implicates his own VP into the scandal. So it's little wonder that Pence is likely to be a part of the process.

As for Pelosi becoming interim President, it's entirely possible. Although I sincerely hope it doesn't happen. It's the law but I think it would set a very unhealthy precedent and it would only serve to further divide the country by having a President nobody voted into office and would complicate and cast a shadow over the election process.

Besides, just imagine the scandal if she nominated Hillary as interim Vice President. I could already hear the collective howling.

 

[Liquid]

it would set a very unhealthy precedent [...] having a President nobody voted into office

It has already happened with Gerald Ford, a man who served as Vice President and President despite not being elected to either office.

 

[Danoff]

If he isn't removed from office, I'm pretty confident that Trump'll have a 2nd term, primarily because at that point, the Democratic Party will be seen as genuinely incompetent,

I think you underestimate the willingness of the American people to vote for whoever is not the worst. That's how we ended up with trump, and there will be a lot of that running against Trump in 2020.

 

[NotThePrez]

I think you underestimate the willingness of the American people to vote for whoever is not the worst. That's how we ended up with trump, and there will be a lot of that running against Trump in 2020.

Fair and valid. I'm really hoping that he doesn't get a 2nd term, but I also wouldn't be shocked if it happens.

 

[Dotini]

It's pretty hard to oust a president who has delivered the Big Twofer - Peace and Prosperity. So Trump looks to get a passing grade on Peace, but Prosperity is looking iffier, since it is built on excessive debt and the Chinese, now our enemy thanks to Tariffs, appear to be engineering a crash timed for November of next year. So yes, no sure thing.

 

[Danoff]

Peace and Prosperity

Ofer twofer.

 

[PocketZeven]

Does he really assume his followers cant read???

 

[Danoff]

She took it upon herself to open this "impeachment inquiry", or whatever the hell it is. In the Clinton case the Judiciary Committee voted. That gave them, and the White House subpoena power.

Nothing in law has changed from a month ago until today, even with Nancy's proclamation. This whole thing is just a bunch of BS. It is a circus to placate the lefty loons.

Then let them vote.

Done. https://www.npr.org/2019/10/31/774777869/house-to-vote-to-formalize-outline-impeachment-inquiry

They knew they had the votes back then, but they wanted to (and were allowed to) gather more information. As I said at the time, once they wanted to have a public vote, they would. And that is exactly what happened.

Edit:

Pelosi is writing a spot in the history books for herself.

 

[Dotini]

As I understand it, the Intelligence Committee will continue to lead the process for awhile, but at some point they will turn the matter over to the Judicial Committee to formalize and write up the Articles of Impeachment. At this point it is unknown (to me) exactly what High Crime will be charged. In a sense, it doesn't matter, because Congress could impeach a ham sandwich on a charge of mopery if it wanted to.

But just for fun, who has an idea of exactly what the charge will be?

 

[Danoff]

As I understand it, the Intelligence Committee will continue to lead the process for awhile, but at some point they will turn the matter over to the Judicial Committee to formalize and write up the Articles of Impeachment. At this point it is unknown (to me) exactly what High Crime will be charged. In a sense, it doesn't matter, because Congress could impeach a ham sandwich on a charge of mopery if it wanted to.

But just for fun, who has an idea of exactly what the charge will be?

Bribery at a minimum: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors".

Edit:

Here's a "high crimes and misdemeanors" angle:

Abusing power to keep power
In Federalist 65, Alexander Hamilton argues that impeachment concerns abuses primarily “political” in nature. It’s easy to read that as a tautology: Of course a politician’s offenses will be political in nature. A clearer way to put his point is that impeachable offenses are those that endanger the political system itself.

The point of impeachment isn’t to punish the president but to protect the political system. Offenses that endanger the system — that undermine elections, that corrupt the functions of government, that break constitutional boundaries — cannot be left to elections because they warp elections.

That is, of course, what we are seeing today. Donald Trump’s plan was explicitly to force a statement from the president of Ukraine saying that his political rival Joe Biden was under investigation for corruption. If the scheme had worked — and it nearly did — the election itself would have been compromised. When Black spoke of offenses that “so seriously threaten the order of political society as to make pestilent and dangerous the continuance in power of their perpetrator,” this is the kind of offense he described: an act that forces us to doubt the nature of elections so long as the perpetrator is a participant.

This is why abuse of power is precisely the kind of offense that counts as a high crime and misdemeanor, whether or not the abuse in question is criminal: There is nothing more corrosive to systems of government than permitting officials to abuse power in order to amass power. When that is permitted, systems quickly crumble into autocracy.

 

[Biggles]

We're doing better than the UK and their Brexit/government and we do GET TO VOTE for our leader.
Just watching the threads here it seems their government is literally falling apart.

Yes - but the ironic thing about what's happening in the UK is that the whole quagmire was created by the people GETTING TO VOTE directly for a government policy (leaving the EU).

 

[Biggles]

Bribery at a minimum: "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, Blowjobs or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors".

You forgot that part.

Of course, Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury & obstruction of justice for trying to conceal the *******, rather than the ******* itself. However, the process under which Ken Starr ended up there is pretty questionable.

In Trump's case, the evidence is pretty much out there in the open to start with. The question is: how seriously do you take it? And the follow up question is: if Trump gets away with this, how much further would he go in the future, particularly if he won a second term?

 

[PocketZeven]

we do GET TO VOTE for our leader.

You actually dont get to vote directly for your leader. Because of the electoral college:

- when you vote for your candidate you are actually voting for your candidate’s electors.
- Some votes in certain states weigh in 4 times as much as votes in other states states. (wyoming vs california)
- The one who wins the most votes does not automatically win
- It discourages more parties (winner takes all)

edit:

if Trump gets away with this, how much further would he go in the future, particularly if he won a second term?

If Trump gets away, he will be empowered and further think he is untouchable and feed his godcomplex. I am certain he will campaign for more or longer terms (he already implied to it multiple times) or even being president for life.

 

[Dotini]

As I understand it, so far the only allegation out there being aired against Trump is that he made a phone call to the President of Ukraine which threatened to withhold armaments to Ukraine unless Ukraine investigated Hunter Biden. Is that correct?

 

[Danoff]

As I understand it, so far the only allegation out there being aired against Trump is that he made a phone call to the President of Ukraine which threatened to withhold armaments to Ukraine unless Ukraine investigated Hunter Biden. Is that correct?

There is also a coverup to contend with, but I think that's the main point. His demonstrated history (especially in this particular arena) will be brought in to establish a consistent record.

 

[Dotini]

There is also a coverup to contend with, but I think that's the main point. His demonstrated history (especially in this particular arena) will be brought in to establish a consistent record.

The essence of Nixon's impeachable crime was the attempt to cover up activities that took place after the break-in, and to use federal officials to deflect the investigation.

I, for one, do not see how the political quid pro quo, Trump's dealings with a foreign president, can be held as a high crime. So, yes, it would have to be a coverup - lying under oath, destruction of evidence, directing subordinates to lie or conceal evidence, that kind of thing.

The above is my opinion only - I'm not a lawyer. But I'm going to be talking with a lawyer currently working in government legislation and policy this weekend, and we'll discuss it.

 

[Danoff]

The essence of Nixon's impeachable crime was the attempt to cover up activities that took place after the break-in, and to use federal officials to deflect the investigation.

I, for one, do not see how the political quid pro quo, Trump's dealings with a foreign president, can be held as a high crime. So, yes, it would have to be a coverup - lying under oath, destruction of evidence, directing subordinates to lie or conceal evidence, that kind of thing.

The above is my opinion only - I'm not a lawyer. But I'm going to be talking with a lawyer currently working in government legislation and policy this weekend, and we'll discuss it.

He withheld money (aid), but promised to hand it over in exchange for a personal favor from the Ukraine. How is that not bribery? Where's the difficulty here?