The Nordschleife 30BHP Challenge

Discussion in 'GT4 Race Reports' started by RenesisEvo, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    I set myself the goal of driving every single car at or under 30bhp around the Nurburgring, mainly to help me learn the circuit. Now, I have finally got around to uploading the results. So, without further-ado...

    note: this is prone to being EDITED frequently.

    [ALL Cars: PAL-UK version GT Mode, manual, N3 tyres, 0/0/0 Aids, no oil changes, and 1 lap A-spec only. All bhp and weight values according to the valuation screen in the garage.]

    Being 1-lap only, a few offs were inevitable - and these occured mostly at 2 places; the tight corners of Metzgesfeld and Weirseifen, and occasionally at Adenau-Forst, since it is very difficult to judge braking in something very slow. However, mistakes were made on all the laps, so it should balance out. This is not a deadly-scientific comparison (B-spec would be the choice then), so it is not a concern.


    Car Name - Year - Power - Weight - Time

    Daihatsu Midget '63 12bhp 415kg 17min 58.473

    Subaru 360 '58 16bhp 385kg 17min 45.998

    Citroen 2CV Type-A '54 15bhp 495kg 17min 14.846

    Fiat 500F '65 16bhp 520kg 15min 58.003

    Fiat 500L '69 16bhp 530kg 15min 41.644

    Ford Model T Tourer '15 20bhp 635kg 15min 16.699 Note: N1 tyres, lap by Daan (thanks!)

    Fiat 500R '72 17bhp 595kg 15min 07.209

    Mazda Carol 360 Deluxe '62 19bhp 560kg 14min 44.805

    Honda Life Step Van '72 30bhp 475kg 14min 22.723

    Honda N360 '67 30bhp 475kg 13min 32.896

    Honda Z ACT '70 27bhp 510kg 12min 54.764

    VW Beetle 1100 Standard (Type-11) '54 25bhp 720kg 12min 54.622

    Daihatsu Midget II D-type '98 30bhp 570kg 12min 47.008

    Honda Today G '85 28bhp 550kg 12min 44.692


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    **Cars Without Times**

    Merc-Benz Patent Wagen 1886: have yet to complete a full lap... see "1889 Motor Carriage around 'Ring" thread. I'm not gonna touch Mezar/thegreatms times, but I'm still gonna set a lap time.

    Merc-Benz Motor Carriage 1889: same as above - need time to have a go
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *Reviews*

    Worst Car: Honda N360. The engine note is chronically bad, and the gear changes take longer than the amount of time for you to decide to turn the volume down on your TV. It may give a reasonably quick time, but the damage to your brain is not worth it. Closely chased by the torque-less Honda Z, which is a lot quicker, but as bad to drive. It doesn't give you such a bad headache though, even if of its 4 gears, you only ever use 1st or 2nd.

    Best Car: Honda Today G: being the newest car, it whips around, even with less power and more weight than the Step Life Van. Looks a little bit nicer too. VW Beetle running just behind it, being a surprise performer, with funky retro-clattering in the back and distinctly-sideways handling.

    Most Fun Car: Fiat 500s - the RR layout means oversteer is possible, even with tiny amounts of power, so the handling is grin-inducingly fun enough to ensure you concentrate for most of the lap. A minor off at Metzgesfeld probably didn't help much! Update: the 500R is almost a motorised skateboard, a true pocket rocket. Immensely enjoyable for 17bhp :dopey:

    Least Fun Car: The old Midget. It is soo slow, it doesn't even require brakes for most of the time. My thumb hurt from holding X so long I used the analogue stick, and that straight seems like an eternity. The 3 wheels do not make for any added entertainment at all. Greatest challenge with this car is staying awake.

    Note also that, despite weighing far less than all the other cars, the Subaru 360 lags well behind, showing just how bad the car really is. Do NOT drive it stock!! The Ford Model T sets a surprisingly good time - I suspect someone is better than me at driving (must be if they have the car!).
     
  2. Touring Mars

    Touring Mars Moderator

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    He he... interesting stuff :) ... i've moved this to the Race Report section, since it's more appropriate there I think... :tup:
     
  3. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    Good idea to move it :tup: - didn't think about that!!
     
  4. niky

    niky Moderator

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    I'd like to request a time for the 500R, as it is the best of the old Fiats... not surprised that they are a good drive around the ring... must try!

    Doesn't the Midget II qualify for this?
     
  5. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    Okay - I'll send the 500R around in a bit. As for the Midget II, it doesn't!! It has 32bhp I think, I did check but I might just check again to be absolutely sure.

    I did think of making it 60bhp, but then I thought, that's a lot of cars :indiff:
     
  6. Spottedlaurel

    Spottedlaurel

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    57
    Nice one! What about the old Beetle? Also there's the Honda Z, without wishing to inflict more pain on you!

    Your fastest 12.xx-minute time seems pretty good when you think how much more power etc you need to get a road car round the 'Ring in, say 8 minutes.
     
  7. James2097

    James2097

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    1,620
    Its really about time you give the carriage and wagon a serious run RenesisEvo! Then you won't feel bad because you've left something out of your tests... I'd love to have another confirmed carriage/wagon miester! :)

    James
     
  8. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    University may take away all my free time, but when I get some, I will be trying.

    Thanks spottedlaurel for the VW Beetle and Honda Z - 2 forgotten machines, one of which I don't possess at the moment. The other has been driven around the 'Ring - but I have no lap time :crazy: so round it goes again... and sadly, its the Honda Z!! Oh well....

    *drumroll* Fiat 500R time:

    17bhp... 595kg... 15min07.209 - hard to believe its 50 secs quicker than the 500F. It has 1bhp more, but also weighs 75kg more. Anyway, round the Karussell it was more like a motorised skateboard than a car, and was great fun thereafter, all the way up to Galgenkopf.

    Daihatsu Midget II - 34bhp according to my one, but I found its had an oil change (oops!!) so Im gonna buy another soon as I can, and check that one out.

    Its a shame then, that a Fiat Panda beats the lot of them at 12min10.757...
     
  9. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    James, you're obsessed. I think you need some help. :)

    Let's hope they don't find a cure...
     
  10. niky

    niky Moderator

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    As I suspected... the 500R isn't just 1hp more, it's about 100cc more, more torque and hp down low in the range, and that really matters on a small car like this... and what do you expect of a car with an R in its name? :lol:

    Obsessed he is, but this is a funny (and fun) obsession!
     
  11. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    Just did a 12'52" in a standard beetle in arcade mode :) . Sadly I haven't kept any cars below 70bhp in my garage as before I came to this site I couldn't find a use for them! Silly me!

    I'm guessing all cars here should be unmodded?
     
  12. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    Just got myself another Honda Life step Van thing. I strongly suspect that giving Bob a 230bhp CZ-3 Tarmac to lift the Japanese Compact Car Cup will be considered cheating by some and not in the spirit of the game by the 200 pt crowd, but I just don't care! :mischievous: That's the kind of guy I am!

    Posted a 13'54.834" with that puppy! Hah!

    Severely hampered by its undergearing tho, which limited it to a top speed of... 63mph!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: , a five speed box would lop a couple of minutes off that.
     
  13. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    Of course, I had to try it...

    5 speed box lops about a minute off, in fact: 13'02.109"

    All right about 48 secs :ouch:
     
  14. Alfaholic

    Alfaholic

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    1,202
    I :bowdown: to your ability to spend 27 minutes in a Beetle, presumably not at gunpoint! When you'd finished, did you then relax by walking on hot coals, or did you take a nap on a bed of nails? :lol:

    Managed to trundle the Model T around Autumn Ring Reverse in 2 minutes 22 seconds, and that was more than enough time in it. No way it's getting anywhere near the Nurb with me at the wheel - life is too short! I felt like I would have been faster in Fred Flintstone's car. Although, having said that, the T can hold a drift for a surprising amount of time, if you manage not to spin it. Amusing, because I am not even sure if oversteer was a word in 1915.
     
  15. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    :) No it's worse than that, the Beetle was quite a pleasant place to be, what with the percussion section in the back, the swing axles and the hammer effect of a crappy old rear engined car! :)

    No, those times were set in the Honda Step-Thru Van, and it was sooo dreary. :yuck:

    Actually I feel like getting a beetle of my own and tuning the nuts off it, just to see... :sick:
     
  16. Alfaholic

    Alfaholic

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    1,202
    I'll swallow my pride and take the Beetle out for a, um, spin tonight then.

    As for tuning it, IRL I did get my butt kicked once by a Beetle with a Ford 3.0L V6 (I think it's called the Essex engine. Probably has pushrods, it's a real boat anchor of a powerplant.) poking out of its rear end. It was so fast I barely had enough time to study its rear end for long enough to recognise the naked motor.

    On another occasion I got blitzed by one that sounded like it had a mazda rotary engine trying to escape from it.

    Tuned to such extremes, they are certainly fast, and it looks totally daft to see an ungainly, slow-looking Beetle accelerating with such enthusiasm. One might get a similar effect by sticking a V8 in a Ford Transit, or a Cosworth lump or big V6 or something in a Rascal.

    UPDATE: Took my Beetle for a run around Trial Mountain on N1s. Not too shabby actually. I managed to rotate it a couple of times by trying to coax it into a corner too quickly, but it's so slow couldn't manage more than a half spin.. shift down into third, then second, then first, and just kinda drive off again :lol: Gotta take your lead and tune it - I see it's good for a turbocharged 70odd bhp. Now THAT should be fun! Stick some black alloy wheels on it and I'll have myself Darth Vader's own beetle!

    I'm still trying to figure out how I got your Life Step Van confused with a Beetle though.....
     
  17. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    :lol: :lol: :lol:
    Never been done by a beetle in RL. Did a Porsche once in a Citroen AX10E. Came up behind him when he was at 40mph, thinking I was never going to get past. Then he started putting his foot down. It soon became obvious he didn't know the road and/or the car, so I dropped back and slingshot him through a gentle, blind bend onto a long straight. He came back on the straight before I'd been able to tuck in ahead of him, but I just stayed on the right, and at the gentle, open left at the end of the straight I got ahead when the fool slowed down. :lol:

    Reckon Bob was driving....

    But that was a long time ago and I only drive like that on my bike now...
     
  18. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

    Messages:
    895
    Hmm people going around faster than me... ah well. I stick by the rules I laid out, and yes, that means NO MODS. The cars are stock, as bought, no oil changes, nothing - just turned the aids off and fitted N3 tyres.

    I got hold of a second hand Daihatsu Midget II last night - and the status screen read 30bhp - so off I went....

    ... and set the quickest time yet! In a Midget II :crazy: 12min47.008. I guess the MR format really helps, plus the Midget II doesn't struggle through the gears. It was utterly tedious to drive, I had the radio up to keep me entertained, possibly too much so when I only had 2 wheels on the track around Adenau Forst...

    [Time for Midget II entered above]

    There was a Ford Transit which had a Cosworth DFV in it (aka Formula 1 engine)... not forgetting a Mini with 2 kawaski bike engines, 200bhp each. :sly:
     
  19. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    UPDATE:

    Honda Z Act - oh... my. It may redline at 9000rpm, but with absolutley no torque whatsoever, combined with gear ratios longer than my arm, is creeps around the 'Ring. It has 4 gears, of which 1st and 2nd see the most use, and a little bit of time is spent in 3rd. 4th? I only found out it existed after I crossed the line and checked it over. FF meant hideous understeer too, not nice to drive. :yuck: It set a suprisinly decent time, but rates just behind the Honda N360 - rubbish.

    VW Beetle - at last!! I got one!! So I fitted my N3's and took Darth Herbie to the Nordschleife. With even more torque than the Midget II, it was looking promising, despite being by far the heaviest car here. Handling-wise, the back end broke lose a lot, which was fun, but time consuming given the lack of outright power. It got round great though, setting a time fractionally quicker than the motorised tin can that is the Honda Z. :bowdown: a great drive, and beats the Today G. It might just become the best car...

    Does anyone want torque figures to help with the comparison?? And can anyone provide bhp/weight figures for a Fiat 500L without oil change?
     
  20. niky

    niky Moderator

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    AFAIK, 18 hp, but only if it's a 10km/6.2mi special. I've seen 16 hp for a used one with lots of miles. Can't remember the tq. figures, though. The 500R is 19hp for the 10k special, 17hp if it's high mileage.

    500F is 520kg.
    500L is 530kg.
    500R is 595kg.
     
  21. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    :tup: great thanks. I think Ive got a high mileage 500L, it did around 15min30. Will need to buy another methinks, and take it around :) dont mind driving the Fiats around the 'Ring. I might even go get some photos of all the slow cars and add them here, who knows.
     
  22. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    :banghead: Now that's just not fair! Should have been something class!! It's always been the vehicle I hate the most, besause you've nearly always had to spend money buying one to get 100%

    Wish they'd put an Abarth 500 in (was it a 595? something like that), That would be worth trying.

    Couldn't you fake the results so something vaguely classy wins? Allow all twins to be turbocharged? raise the horsepower limit for european cars? Anything but letting that darn MidgetII win!!! :(

    I know! 500cc max, and enter the Mazda 110S L10B!!! :) You know it makes sense, you of all people, Ren!
     
  23. RenesisEvo

    RenesisEvo

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    895
    Let's not forget, the Midget also has the record for the slowest vehicle... but yes, it is rather annoying that the Midget-II is the quickest. I wasn't even trying to drive the thing at speed. I may just have to take the Today G for another run, and try and knock some time off maybe. I haven't driven it for ages, so the original rules of 1 lap only can apply (I do 2 laps sometimes, but normally don't finish the second lap through boredom).

    And I am liking the 500cc... maybe I should begin a search of all the cars with 500cc or less? (How many would that be though?) I think 600 or less maybe, just enough to rule out the Japanese K-Cars that I would rather not have to drive (too many of them!)

    EDIT: the dinky Abarth, whatever it was that was a tuned 500, was I think in GT2?? Can't remember, but anyway, it was the ultimate pocket rocket in real life. There are too many cars PD didn't include...
     
  24. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    I can't find it in the car lists (doesn't mean it isn't there). But what you're saying is definitely ringing bells with me. Maybe it was GT1?
     
  25. Smallhorses

    Smallhorses Staff Emeritus

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    7,260
    It looked something, if not entirely, like the picture attached below.
    This wee beastie was on sale for a while, down the road from me. Couldn't afford the $72,000 asking price though!! :(
     

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  26. TeamWilliams F1

    TeamWilliams F1

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    270
    old handa civic takes about 20 min a lap....no lie.....it cant make it up some of the hills....lol
     
  27. TeamWilliams F1

    TeamWilliams F1

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    270
    Smallhourse...what is that....its.....AWSOME!!!!
     
  28. Smallhorses

    Smallhorses Staff Emeritus

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    7,260
    That is a fully tuned Arbarth Racing version of the Fiat 500, it has the engine cover propped open while racing, to act as a spoiler & keep the engine cooler!
    Sadly I couldn't afford it when it was on sale at Fantasy Junction and its no longer there. Beautiful though and must be a tremendous giggle to drive :D
     
  29. FastEddie12

    FastEddie12

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    1,020
    And there was I thinking you were the miniman! They are crazy suckers those italians! :D Notice, children, the solid looking framework that holds the engine cover open. Permanently. :eek: And the big fat tyres. When you see 'em on the circuit they don't roll at all . Hey Smallhorse, you got any piccies in action?
     
  30. Smallhorses

    Smallhorses Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    7,260
    No action pictures of that one in particular, but I do recall seeing one racing at Oulton Park when I was younger, I used to waste rolls & rolls of film taking pictures there. Maybe I'll see if I can find one from there!

    Yes, I'm definitely a Mini man, though I've never owned one. Fantasy Junction has one for sale (amongst other things, like $1,000,000 Ferraris) on their website, but I think $19,800 is a little too much to pay for a Mini!

    My Mum would disagree about the rolling bit. She had a Fiat 500 as her first car back in the Sixties, and she rolled it! Right back onto its wheels and then carried on driving to work!

    Here's the back view of that Arbarth, check out that exhaust! That puts a lot of "Rice-Racers" to shame!
     

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