The truth behind the gentlemans agreement?

Here is what I have been able to find out about it from my research....

In this agreement, the automakers chose not to advertise any vehicle as over two hundred and eighty Pferdestärke. A Pferdestärke is the metric unit of horsepower and is commonly abbreviated as PS. One Pferdestärke is roughly equal to one horsepower.

To understand why such a bizarre agreement was adopted involves the history of the Japanese automobile industry. During World War II many Japanese factories were converted to produce goods for the war. One of the most important products being prepared was the Zero fighter manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Co. This was and still is a part of Mitsubishi motors.

The Zero was a fast and nimble fighter aircraft used to engage land based targets. Due to its size, it was easily carried aboard ships and was considered to be the best carrier based aircraft of its time. Another attribute that made the Zero fighter such a valuable aircraft was its exceptional attack range, which greatly aided the Japanese in the attack on Pearl Harbor. Since Mitsubishi manufactured the aircraft, this would later have a great impact on the automotive industry of Japan by forcing automobile manufacturers to abide by the Gentleman’s Agreement.

The use of automotive companies to produce aircraft engines was not a new concept. This tactic was also employed by both the Germans and the United States during World War II. Germany used companies such as the Bavarian Motor Works, commonly known as BMW, and Mercedes to manufacture engines for planes that it used during the Blitzkrieg. The United States also chose this route by employing Rolls Royce to manufacture engines for the P-51 mustang which helped in the victory against Germany and eventually paved the way for American air superiority and ending the war.

At the end of the war, the Treaty of Versailles was adopted and prohibited the production of aircraft in Germany. After the Japanese surrendered in 1945, Japan's aircraft industry was likewise prohibited from manufacturing aircraft. The terms and restrictions set forth by the United States meant that the Japanese auto industry could not manufacture an engine that could potentially be used to power an aircraft. These limitations in turn lead to the formation of the gentleman’s agreement but not directly to the two hundred and eighty horsepower figure.

While the prohibition set forth on the auto industry explains why the limitation was established, it does not explain how the two hundred and eighty figure was derived. Until recently, the only way to accurately measure horsepower was on a dynamometer, commonly referred to by automobile enthusiasts as a dyno. A dynamometer is an instrument that is used to measure mechanical power in automobiles. At the time, these restrictions were imposed only one type of dynamometer was available in Japan; was known as a Bosch type dyno. However, these dynos had one major defect; they could not measure more than two
hundred and eighty horsepower. Consequently, when high performance engines were tested they displayed no more than two hundred and eighty. Even though actual output could have been greater, there was no way to prove whether or not the vehicle was producing what the manufacturer claimed it did. Therefore, since two hundred and eighty was the most power that could be proven, that became the figure for restrictions.

No one is certain why manufacturers would willingly produce such an automobile only to advertise it as less powerful. It certainly does not make any economic sense. One of the reigning theories is that perhaps the manufacturers continue to uphold this agreement so that they will look good for the government. Another reason may be an environmental issue. No one is absolutely sure as to why such a ridiculous act is still being performed, after all BMW has been reproducing high output engines from the moment the restrictions were lifted. Japan seems to be the only country doing such a bizarre thing and none of the manufacturers or the government claims to know why.

Another theory as to why this continues is that the manufacturers do it so that they may participate in the Japanese Grand Touring Circuit also known as the JGTC. This event is very popular in Japan and the reasoning behind the theory was that if a manufacturer were to miss out on such a largely publicized event it would be a vastly missed opportunity for free advertising.

This led many people to believe that perhaps the JGTC was the force responsible for the continuation of the, now self-imposed, restrictions. However, it would not make economic sense for a company to alter an entire line of mass produced vehicles just to compete in an event. Instead, it would merely create special editions of its vehicles similar to the way American companies do for NASCAR. To think that a single competition could affect the entire industry is preposterous.


this is what I could gather from my interviews. I talked to people at TODA, HKS, TRUST, JUN and some other sources...

What do you guys think?
 
It still doesn't answer the question, as you must ask why a company such as nissan underestimates the power of an R33, whereas NISMO manages to correctly measure the power of a 400R. Having a dyno limit of 280 PS doesn't add up (surely the two would be using the same dynos)
So I think that the JGTC theory still holds more weight.
 
The difference is that the 400R was not a mass produced car. The gentlemen's agreement only applied to the mass produced sportscars of the companies. Special limited editions could go beyond. For instance the 300hp Lancer Evo FQ, the 290hp NSX Alex Zanardi Edition, etc...
 
Originally posted by Glut
It still doesn't answer the question, as you must ask why a company such as nissan underestimates the power of an R33, whereas NISMO manages to correctly measure the power of a 400R. Having a dyno limit of 280 PS doesn't add up (surely the two would be using the same dynos)
So I think that the JGTC theory still holds more weight.

You seem to misunderstand, or perhaps I did not make it clear. they dynos at the time of the siging of the treaty could not measure more than 280 PS, eventually better dynos were built that could measure more power but since at the signing of the treaty (September 12, 1945) the best dyno could only measure 280. The R32 didn't come out untill 1989 way after the treaty was signed.

Since engine power for production cars is restricted to 280ps, having a car built by a tuning division is the only way to get over such a regulation. And this is exactly what Nissan did with the 400R in February 1996, a car that was produced in a very limited number of only 99 pieces, of which only 44 were sold to the public. The agreement affects Nissan, not Nismo, they took the stock 280ps R33 and just "modified" with their own parts before being sold. :) Belive me I checked about that.
 
Good work man! Great Info you gathered. I learn some things, I am glad that the restriction now is offically dropped. As read from the president of Nissan i qoute "The new Skyline will be the first car to offically surpass the 280ps limitation." The thing that i dont get is that as of right now, every japanese car/suv is rated at 280ps? In america we get 340hp+ from Infiniti and since Infiniti dont exist in Japan, all Infiniti car are sold as Nissan. So my question is the Infiniti we have rated at 340hp is it rated at 280ps in japan also?
 
Originally posted by rollazn
Good work man! Great Info you gathered. I learn some things, I am glad that the restriction now is offically dropped. As read from the president of Nissan i qoute "The new Skyline will be the first car to offically surpass the 280ps limitation." The thing that i dont get is that as of right now, every japanese car/suv is rated at 280ps? In america we get 340hp+ from Infiniti and since Infiniti dont exist in Japan, all Infiniti car are sold as Nissan. So my question is the Infiniti we have rated at 340hp is it rated at 280ps in japan also?

I'm in chem lab right now but I'll look it up when I get out :D
 
Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
You seems to misunderstand, or perhaps I did not make it clear. they dynos at the time of the siging of the treaty could not measure more than 280 PS, eventually better dynos were built that could measure more power but since at the signing of the treaty (September 12, 1945) the best dyno could only measure 280. The R32 didn't come out untill 1989 way after the treaty was signed.

Since engine power for production cars is restricted to 280ps, having a car built by a tuning division is the only way to get over such a regulation. And this is exactly what Nissan did with the 400R in February 1996, a car that was produced in a very limited number of only 99 pieces, of which only 44 were sold to the public. The agreement affects Nissan, not Nismo, they took the stock 280ps R33 and just "modified" with their own parts before being sold. :) Belive me I checked about that.
Sorry, misread the bit about dynos, prolly the coffee.

But I'll add another, better example of producing more powerful engines that 280 ps (quoted power)
In 1972, Nissan Diesel had a 350 ps truck engine (RD10) - as advertised in Japan - yet the passenger cars remained below 280.
Mitsubishi advertise a 304kw truck (well over 280ps) currently. Given this, I seriously doubt it has to do with engine power as relates to building aircraft engines.

Edit - the mistu stuff
 
according to the treaty:

Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those which would enable her to re-arm for war.
During the six months following the coming into force of the present Treaty, the
manufacture and importation of aircraft, parts of aircraft, engines for aircraft,
and parts of engines for aircraft, shall be forbidden

If germany and the US used automotive engines in their aircraft what would stop japan from doing so? Why would the US ban BMW from making high power engine but not japan who was in the same situation as germany? the ban on high Hp engines is what led BMW to begin making motorcycles.

BMW, a company rooted in the production of aircraft engines, was not even

two years old when the Peace Treaty of Versailles banned the production of aircraft engines in Germany in June 1919. The company was no longer permitted to produce its six-cylinder, 226 bhp engines

as for the RD10, I'm guessing that that power was obviously needed in semi trucks and such and was allowable since i don't think that deisel truck engines would be very good at powering hi-rpm aircraft.
 
Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy

as for the RD10, I'm guessing that that power was obviously needed in semi trucks and such and was allowable since i don't think that deisel truck engines would be very good at powering hi-rpm aircraft.
Aircraft of that era used low-rpm engines that relied on capacity to create power. For instance the Zero engine reved to around 3000 rpm peak.
Sounds like most truck engines...

But there's a fair difference in car and plane engines at that time. The size, and hp output were vastly different (a fighter was underpowered if it had less than around 1000hp - a fair jump from 280ps)
 
Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Your research didn't include GTP, did it?

Yeah I had a thread up, they gave me a link to that JGTC theory but i ended up calling tuner companies to see what I could find out. Anyway the thing about the car engines powering airplanes came from the marketing guys at HKS, the guys at TODA seemed to tell me the same thing.
 
Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
Anyway the thing about the car engines powering airplanes came from the marketing guys at HKS, the guys at TODA seemed to tell me the same thing.
Well, they're wrong. Car engines are far too heavy and not nearly powerful enough to make aircraft engines, with a few notable exceptions.

Just because Packard and Rolls Royce workers in the Packard and Rolls Royce factories built the Merlin engine does not mean in any way that it was derived from automobile engines. Same thing with GM and the Allison. It was a matter of using any available production capacity, not a matter of adapting automotive designs to aircraft use.

Here's a Merlin, with some gomers behind it for scale:

eng.jpg


Also, the Mitsubishi engines powering the famed Zero were radial, not straight or vee designs. No possible automotive applications here:

p30.jpg


And bear in mind these are small examples of their kind. Toward the end of the war, Pratt & Whitney was experimenting with a piston engine large enough that a single engine could pull a B-17...
 
True but who said that they needed to fly fighter aircraft? Look at these planes powered by subaru and other automotive engines, they could have done something similar. Werent the japanese known for their kamikaze pilots? A full fighter aircraft is not needed to crash into things.

I got an A on the paper anyway :D

So if not the airplane idea, then what? the JGTC thing still seems too awkward. To think that a racing series would affect and enitre automotive industry for so many years is kinda crazy. Especially since the racing series should have adopted itself to the automotive industry not vice versa.
 
Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
I got an A on the paper anyway :D

So if not the airplane idea, then what? the JGTC thing still seems too awkward. To think that a racing series would affect and enitre automotive industry for so many years is kinda crazy. Especially since the racing series should have adopted itself to the automotive industry not vice versa.

Good work, Me i dont run into alot of A's.

I agree with you about JGTC.. If not JGTC or about the Aircraft thing what other reason could it be? Do you have any idea? How is it just now that the agreement is lifted off? Why didnt they do it sooner? If it was about the aircraft idea then how are they just going to lift off that agreement wouldnt it be against the treaty? I dont quite understand. JGTC has 500ps and 300ps class why cant they just raise it instead of the whole automotive industry limiting the power of their cars?
 
Originally posted by rollazn
Good work, Me i dont run into alot of A's.

I agree with you about JGTC.. If not JGTC or about the Aircraft thing what other reason could it be? Do you have any idea? How is it just now that the agreement is lifted off? Why didnt they do it sooner? If it was about the aircraft idea then how are they just going to lift off that agreement wouldnt it be against the treaty? I dont quite understand. JGTC has 500ps and 300ps class why cant they just raise it instead of the whole automotive industry limiting the power of their cars?

The treaty restrictions don't apply anymore. Perhaps it's just another one of those weird japanese things that no one else understands....we might as well put it in the category with the pyramids,the bermuda triangle and aliens and all that other unkown crap.
 
I'll take a stab in the dark at it.

The agreement was designed to head off a "horsepower and marketing arms race", which would have been mutually bad for car companies and consumers.

They realized if Toyota marketed Y car at X horsepower, Mitsubishi would be forced to counter with A car at X+10 horsepower, which would mean Nissan would need Z car at X+20 and so on.

Eventually, car companies would end up spending vast amounts of R&D money to make powerful cars that customers can barely use. This happened in the 60s in the USA, and its happening again right now again, with Germany in on it too.

However, they also realized that the Japananese market was not especially well suited for 300, 400 horsepower cars.. that tight, crowded roads and expensive fuel meant that huge power was mostly good for bragging rights and little else.

So I suspect the companies came up with the agreement partly to save themselves a little on the bottom line. I have zero in the way of evidence to support this, mind you, but it seems logical to me.

Take a look at what is happening now with German premium brands since the 90s. BMW spends big bucks to develop a line of sedan cars to keep up with Porsches. Then Audi and Mercedes launches a wave of boosted 300, 400, now almost 500 hp cars in order to assult the BMW brand. Now BMW is pulling its hair out developing two brand new, cutting-edge, expensive performance flagship engines for the new M5/M6 and M3/M4. Meanwhile Porsche is trying to stuff a V8 into a 911 and has to resort to building trucks to pay for it all... etc, etc.

This is great stuff for us consumers, but I assure you it is a big headache for car companies.


M
 
Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
True the sports car part would do what you said but what about the ones making family sedans and feul efficient cars?

Not sure what you mean by that. Every car maker wants a sports car --at the very least a 'sporty car' in its line up-- more as an image builder than a money maker.

Now profit margins on sports cars are already razor thin, so why would they want to make it even more costly to develop one if they can avoid it?


M
 
I mean not all cars are built with horsepower in mind, other parts of the company would focus more on comfort or feul efficiency not power. Plus it's all part of business, if a company is too stupid to monitor where its spends its money then it deserves to go under, just economical darwinism. Every company thinks its smarter than the other so why would Nissan care if Toyota went under? If the rest of the world did fine then why would they need to worry? Also why wait untill now to ignore the agreement. Plus if that was the case why would nissan purposely take cars like the skylines and make them fast just to detune them? why put in a boost restrictor when it would have been cheaper to use smaller turbos? Why put in an ignition system that handle 1000+ Hp if all you wanted was 280? Producing a powerful car then detuning it would completley defy the purpose of the agreement in the first place making it usless and costing more money in the end because of the extra stuff needed to restrict the car.

But it is a great idea, I actually looked into that idea, its primarily known as the keiretsu concept, keeping all companies equall. I asked several economics teachers about it but they said that it wouldnt make economic sense.
 
Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
I mean not all cars are built with horsepower in mind, other parts of the company would focus more on comfort or feul efficiency not power.

I still don't see what relevance family cars have to do with this topic. They are immaterial to this discussion.

BTW, fuel efficiency leads to more power.


Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
Plus it's all part of business, if a company is too stupid to monitor where its spends its money then it deserves to go under, just economical darwinism. Every company thinks its smarter than the other so why would Nissan care if Toyota went under? If the rest of the world did fine then why would they need to worry?

Again, I'm trying to follow along with you, but don't see what this has to do with anything.

My theory simply states that Japanese manufactuers wanted to prevent a situation where horsepower standards for performance cars where so high, it became finanically pointless to build and sell one.


Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
Also why wait untill now to ignore the agreement.

Good question. It's obvious the current management doesn't feel it is worth sticking to. But they still adhere to the 'advertised' portion of the agreement, don't they? In that case, "to prevent an expensive arms race" still applies.


Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
Plus if that was the case why would nissan purposely take cars like the skylines and make them fast just to detune them?

Probably because they wanted to make the best car they possibly could. The motor is directly based on a racing design, so I'm sure the mission statement for the car was to retain as much of its racing identity as possible. This gives the product a greater degree of legitimacy in the eyes of the consumer.


Originally posted by skylineGTR_guy
But it is a great idea, I actually looked into that idea, its primarily known as the keiretsu concept, keeping all companies equall. I asked several economics teachers about it but they said that it wouldnt make economic sense.

I personally wouldn't consider a professor of economics automatically an expert in the business of making cars, unless he/she has an auto industry background. The only people qualified to answer your question are high-level executives at Japanese car companies.

The rest of us are just guessing.



M
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
My theory simply states that Japanese manufactuers wanted to prevent a situation where horsepower standards for performance cars where so high, it became finanically pointless to build and sell one.M

That would be up to each individual company to decide where that limit is. The laws of economics dictate that all companies want to make as much profit as possible. having a HP war and weakening/bankrupting the other oponents is not a tactic that hasnt been used before.


There has to be some reason as to why ALL companies would adhere to it not just a few. Say toyota, Honda decided to go for it, why wouldnt nissan just say screw them and make a car with 320 HP and say hey we are the best!

The economics teacher may not have worked for the automotive industry but the laws remain the same for large corporations or mom and pop shops, profits rule.
 
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