Potato...

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't see games like Red Dead Redemption 2 constantly needing updates to the physics of riding a horse. I wouldn't be proud of releasing a game that was unfinished. Besides, what incentive do they have to work on a new game when all they have to do is keep adding cars and changing the tire physics to the old one? Why did GT6 come out at all?

That has to be one of the more goofy comparisons I've ever seen on the forums. First off Rockstar is who does the updating, second RDR physics engine for horse riding isn't the focal point of the game. GTS hasn't had constant physics updates this has been told to you yet you ignore it to keep pushing on with rhetoric. Games get bugs all the time, get revamped, get updated and have other issues. The game and any game these days isn't ever complete because of peoples wants for added features, improvements, and content.

But hey anything to not think about it and keep just pushing hate on GT games.

 

[Brzlav]

I have just done some laps in the weekly race Mt Panorama.

I was undecided whether I like the new physics or not. It is true that it has become easier to catch slides. The problem is, I get the feeling that the game is catching slides for me and that I don't like (CSA is off).

You can completely overcook the section over the mountain and be faster than hitting it clean. If you look at the current fastest two laps, they look wilder than I'm used to from the game's aliens and from real life GT3 drivers.

Being fast is about being precisely at the verge of under- and oversteering without really going into those. It seems that atm going all out and catching some slides is the fastest method.

I therefore now voted for "worse".

 

[Rexracer702]

I have just done some laps in the weekly race Mt Panorama.

I was undecided whether I like the new physics or not. It is true that it has become easier to catch slides. The problem is, I get the feeling that the game is catching slides for me and that I don't like (CSA is off).

You can completely overcook the section over the mountain and be faster than hitting it clean. If you look at the current fastest two laps, they look wilder than I'm used to from the game's aliens and from real life GT3 drivers.

Being fast is about being precisely at the verge of under- and oversteering without really going into those. It seems that atm going all out and catching some slides is the fastest method.

I therefore now voted for "worse".

I can't agree with that. I don't get to watch a lot of car racing, but I have actually raced motorcycles and I can tell you that, smooth as it may look, when someone is pushing hard, they are scrubbing (sliding) the front and rear tires everywhere. They are constantly catching slides at the front and the back, and many times the fast way around the track involves sliding to a certain extent. Watch the slow motion sometime. They aren't leaving black marks everywhere for nothing.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

I never had a problem with the physics. Changing things just for the sake of changing them doesn't make it a good thing. Just look at how many people are saying the physics are worse now.

Maybe I'm old. I didn't grow up in the 21st century where games started to come out 50% finished.

Most other games don't alter the core gameplay mechanics after release. If the physics were broken on release day, the game shouldn't have been released, period.

 

[NevilleNobody]

I still think the default tire should be RM, but I'm thinking about it.

Million times this, it'd solve the chronic understeer.

 

[jhietter]

Anyone else find the handling odd on the Mercedes F1 car? It feels like they dumbed it down so it is easy for everyone to drive. Obviously I don’t know how it is in real life, but I’d imagine it would be more difficult, have wheelspin, slide if pushed too hard in a turn, etc.

 

[Sander 001]

More realistic is not exclusively mutual with harder.

I don't see games like Red Dead Redemption 2 constantly needing updates to the physics of riding a horse. I wouldn't be proud of releasing a game that was unfinished. Besides, what incentive do they have to work on a new game when all they have to do is keep adding cars and changing the tire physics to the old one? Why did GT6 come out at all?

Witcher 3, one of the most highly regarded games this generation, did have updates to address the walking physics of Geralto. Looking over posts from other forums on the new physics and I have not found a single post saying the update is anything but positive.

 

[Brzlav]

I can't agree with that. I don't get to watch a lot of car racing, but I have actually raced motorcycles and I can tell you that, smooth as it may look, when someone is pushing hard, they are scrubbing (sliding) the front and rear tires everywhere. They are constantly catching slides at the front and the back, and many times the fast way around the track involves sliding to a certain extent. Watch the slow motion sometime. They aren't leaving black marks everywhere for nothing.

I'm not a motorcycles specialist but indeed I do see more slides when watching motorcycle racing.

I think I should define what I mean by "slide" better and it will become more clear. Oversteering means that the slip angle of your rear tires is bigger than that of your front tires, understeering the other way round (resp. there is a definition that goes the same but with the gradient of slip angle which equates better to what a driver is feeling but the classic definition will suffice).
As soon as there are forces on your tires, there will be slip. Zero slip equates to zero forces. ABS for example controls longitudinal slip to somewhere around 30% (100% would mean a tire that is locking). This 30% come from squirming of the tires (or basically deforming) which creates noise and will be identified by some people (depending on how they use the word) as "slide". Usually tires can transmit higher forces laterally, so optimal grip in corners will be present at higher slip percentages (the "circle of forces" is actually more elliptical than circular).

A good racedriver looking for fast lap times will keep his tires somewhere in this perfect slip window for his given tires. As soon as he steps out of this window and especially if he is stepping out of this window on one axle only, he will loose time. That is what I meant by being fast is about being precisely in the window before excessive over- or understeering begins. Of course, being in this window means excessive stress on the tires which will make them wear, heat up and leave black marks in corners. Of course no driver is perfect all the time. And everyone will look for the perfect way to drive around a turn and will leave a lot of black marks during the learning process.

What I meant with my post is that
1.
The fastest laps (at least those that I looked at) show moments of excessive over- and understeering which would normally cost you 2-3 tens each but it seems ok in the game right now. This is new, I haven't observed that before.
2.
My feeling is that the game helps you when you have such a moment of excessive over- or understeering (that is subjective of course).

About what you said that you felt the cars where too much on-off in terms of grip: I fully agree with you for road tires. However without having first hand experience with racing slicks, they are said to have much more grip and be much more "on-off".
Quoting once again the YouTube channel of AMG driver Jan Seyffarth, he said that he likes the physics of AC and R3E, but found them more forgiving than his real world AMG GT3 when you make a mistake and need to correct it. I think this has always been even easier in GTS, also before the physics update.

This post notwithstanding, the Lambo GT3 was a joke before in GTS and I like that about the update that it is drivable now .

 

[Pedalen]

Was this even needed? It seems that the majority plays with auto steering, asm, tc and what ever. It's hard finding rooms that don't allow these things. Made one earlier, people showed up, saw that they actually had to have some skills - left. "the real driving simulator" my ass, gta doesn't even have all these helpers, haha.

 

[CJ1045]

Was this even needed? It seems that the majority plays with auto steering, asm, tc and what ever. It's hard finding rooms that don't allow these things. Made one earlier, people showed up, saw that they actually had to have some skills - left. "the real driving simulator" my ass, gta doesn't even have all these helpers, haha.

Not sure where you get Majority from. I would say very much the minority. There is a huge difference between what is allowed and what people actually use.

GTA has the helpers you just have no control over what the game decides.

CJ

Most other games don't alter the core gameplay mechanics after release. If the physics were broken on release day, the game shouldn't have been released, period.

Project Cars 2. Try running a full field of cars on one of the ovals a few months ago - all hell broke loose. This is the most buggy game I have come across yet it is often called here the best simulator.

CJ

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I never had a problem with the physics. Changing things just for the sake of changing them doesn't make it a good thing. Just look at how many people are saying the physics are worse now.

Maybe I'm old. I didn't grow up in the 21st century where games started to come out 50% finished.

Most other games don't alter the core gameplay mechanics after release. If the physics were broken on release day, the game shouldn't have been released, period.

yes they do, because bugs and issue with coding when new features are added tend to mess up old code. It's impossible to not have core mechanics/physics not see some issue of the span of a game's life when changes to the game itself are constantly being made. Now if the devs think certain things are going on with the game during play that is too extreme or lacks then updates and tweaks are done to help get them in line with where they should be. This wasn't a top down overhaul like the exaggeration in your posts suggest.

Again provide proof where this game was 50% finished on release? Where did they say they were changing for the sake of changing, it has nothing to do with you being old and everything to do with you being lazy because you don't want to put in the time for set up. Hey that's fine but don't further compound the issue when your quality of play tanks and you want an out that isn't you accepting personal responsibility even though you have the patch notes telling you the changes.

 

[llNovall]

I've said this already in this thread, but when a GT3 spec Ferrari or Lambo ends around on liftoff oversteer at 40mph thru a chicane, something is off. It seems the new physics has dramatically corrected that, and as a result high speed rear end stability has been improved as well, imo, most likely more in line with a real GT3 car of Mr form. How many Ferrari cars or Lambo GT3 cars do you see get ice skating loose in real GT3 racing? Not many. FR drive cars like a torquey Vette, or Viper, yes, but cars with the weight over the rear with applied downforce should not be so fidgety. If anything, the pre 1.32 physics were still off, and we just adapted to it. Anyone recently tried to see if the Miata still blows the rear tires up in smoke. Rear tire grip has long been an issue with this title, but now it seems, due to user feedback, that they have better dialed it in. I'm a fan of the new physics..alot more AC like.

 

[apff]

Most other games don't alter the core gameplay mechanics after release. If the physics were broken on release day, the game shouldn't have been released, period.

Asseto Corsa (the first one on PC) got 10 different tire models... For a video game that is considered as one of the best driving sim around there... Maybe not all of them were released to normal players (as compared to beta test players), but at least 3 of them were. And I believe not a lot of players would argue about AC'physic model.
I believe that PoDi is mainly playing on tyres when playing with the physic as if the spring and damper of each wheels were broken, then the whole game would be a joke. And I really doubt they would have fun tweaking the inertia parameters or the suspension geometry of each car just because.

 

[Brzlav]

I've said this already in this thread, but when a GT3 spec Ferrari or Lambo ends around on liftoff oversteer at 40mph thru a chicane, something is off.

That's true. But what is off could be specific to those cars. Maybe they improved those two cars and made the other cars worse.
In order to have "physics" that can be processed in real time, all racing games built up a meta model that is far off being a true representation of car physics. And that's a good thing cause if you took a detailed car model and simplified it to a degree where you can process it in real time on a video game console, the outcome wouldn't feel like driving at all.
It's therefore perfectly plausible that a racing game physics model works better for some cars in the game then for others.

alot more AC like.

For GT3 cars, that's true if you're not pushing too hard. When you start pushing over the limit, it doesn't feel like AC at all.

 

[Groundfish]

I ran the Alpine n100 on sports hard last night grid start and it was so much better! Fun to drive on Brands.

As far as the tyre slip angle discussion goes, engineers and computers can calculate optimum laptimes irl given a specific car...
Great drivers can beat those times...
At some point the real info is real laps in real vehicles. Everything else is theory.
The other thing that’s corrected is under aggressive trail braking on certain racecars there used to be this weird skate rotation you could achieve that felt weird and unrealistic in car with wheel like the rears were no longer in road contact; I haven’t got that yet since the update.
I had been running abs weak for the longest time, but at Gardens I switched to default again. It seems more reliable.
MR racers can actually be more aggressive in hairpins which is good.
This game is evolving! It’s a great thing for all who play it!

 

[Vspectra]

I never had a problem with the physics. Changing things just for the sake of changing them doesn't make it a good thing.

What's your proof that PD only made physics changes just for the sake of making changes bud? That doesn't even make any sense, because that would be a massive waste of development time, especially for a game that focuses on competitive racing with new FIA tournaments this year. The changes are made for the sake of trying to improve the physics. If they made physics adjustments just for the sake of it with no goal at all, that would no doubt result in a considerably worse and highly confusing physics model and more than 80% of forum voters would have voted "worse" instead of the current "better."

Just look at how many people are saying the physics are worse now

A whopping 7% thinks its worse... that's not a lot of people at all. 80% actually say its improved, 12% neutral, so basically 92% of this forum votes says the physics are not worse. So what do you have to say about that?

 

[Brzlav]

I ran the Alpine n100 on sports hard last night grid start and it was so much better! Fun to drive on Brands.

The Alpine was always good given some adjustment off the diff.

As far as the tyre slip angle discussion goes, engineers and computers can calculate optimum laptimes irl given a specific car...
Great drivers can beat those times...
At some point the real info is real laps in real vehicles. Everything else is theory.

Now that's just BS. If the driver can beat a calculated optimum, then the optimum wasn't calculated correctly. That is simply a case of parameters different than were set in calculation.
Change those parameters a bit within reasonable assumptions and your driver can't beat the time anymore. But that's not important. Important is to understand what makes you faster and what doesn't.

 

[ThionER]

I think the new driving-physics is both good and bad.

-i think the game is funnier now. My replays are wilder then before the update . Why? I have a theory. Since it is harder to initiate a turn not(the bad portion of the new physics), you have to tap the brake and press the throttle to get around the corners at high speed. Where as before, you could get a good turn in just by turning the wheel .

Tire traction when on the throttle has improved. Maby DP wanted to be more like pc2, known for its slogan: grip doesn't diaper like 1 and then 0 . That is the best part of the update .

MR cars still don't handle the way they should. They hardly turn in without brake and they understeer to mutch. Unless you put the pedal to the metal .= wild races .

Another thing i noticed is that the ds4 r2 throttle trigger is maxed out at like 85 % .making it even harder to be gentle then before . And it was hard before since the throttle is not linear .It is almost impossible to hit 90 % throttle in the game becouse of the expo curv it has.

 

[MrBrunoA]

Tried two races at Mt Panorama with the Audi and Mustang. Some observations, considering I use TCS and everything but ABS off:

- The Audi is stable and fast with good tires, but once tire wear kicks in, it's like driving over soap. Not sure if handling is any better now under worn tires conditions. Could be even worse. Can't believe someone can actually drive this car with worn tires using DualShock 4.

- BoP ruined the Mustang for good. Too heavy, eats tires too fast (I think it's the worst car alongside RCZ for tires) and the speed won't compensate the understeer in quick turns like in Mt Panorama. Didn't notice much difference with the new physics for this car.

 

[Groundfish]

The Alpine was always good given some adjustment off the diff.

Now that's just BS. If the driver can beat a calculated optimum, then the optimum wasn't calculated correctly. That is simply a case of parameters different than were set in calculation.
Change those parameters a bit within reasonable assumptions and your driver can't beat the time anymore. But that's not important. Important is to understand what makes you faster and what doesn't.

I just use the cars default.
As to your comment about bs, read a book man. It’s been talked about in several places.
The point of my comment is that despite the best smartest people and best software best computing power the lap time in the car is the bottom line.
It is a fact that great drivers can beat calculated optimums, of course it’s because there’s error in the calculations or that some variable was not accounted for correctly. That’s why I pointed out the facts.
The point!

 

[Anthony71]

I usually test my cars in arcade mode on Kyoto Driving Park normal layout.
I have noticed that all of my cars are slightly faster.
Got 1:48 with my full tuned GT40 before the 1.32 and now I have made 1:44.

And a lot of cars are way easier to drive too, I didn't have to fight with the wheel like I was doing before.
The 288 GTO and Corvette were pure nightmare to drive. Now they are really enjoyable.
The 288GTO is still a beast but less aggressive.

Tomorrow I'm gonna try to beat my personal Nordscheilfe record with the McLaren F1. If I pass under 6:10 it could be fantastic and also a major improvement of the physic.

 

[Pururut]

The Alpine was always good given some adjustment off the diff.

Can you elaborate more? I want to drive this car but all i get is nothing but constant oversteer.

 

[Groundfish]

Can you elaborate more? I want to drive this car but all i get is nothing but constant oversteer.

I know this wasn’t directed at me and I don’t know if you are using wheel...
But, with this car you can learn so much...You brake for a corner the front nose dives...You have to get it as squatted and level as possible by smooth transition off brake and to throttle. You have to ease off the brake smooth and keep the car balanced and squatted with a touch of throttle. You can’t nose dive it then turn it...The rears will have no grip...To me changing diff settings is a band aid.
Fix the technique first.
The Toyota 86 is very similar imo you get it squatted come off brake smooth and apply baby throttle and the car will stay squatted and hooked up...
Takes practice but stand on brakes and come off hard and go to throttle or even get off brakes hard alone the suspension and cars balance will be upset and you’ll snap out.

Ymmv jmo

 

[photonmonkey]

I have to say I am disappointed with the physics changes, in MHO it's a step backwards, far to easy to catch the back end now, I took a few of my favourite tail happy road cars out which sometimes bite me, with sport hard tyres i could just mash the throttle chuck it sideways and then apply the slightest correction and hey no problem. It might look good in replays but to me definitely less realistic. I know this isn't AC or PC2 but at least it was going in the right direction.

 

[Brzlav]

The point of my comment is that despite the best smartest people and best software best computing power the lap time in the car is the bottom line.

The laptime is a result. But it doesn't help in the long run if you don't understand how you came to it.
The result of the calculated optimum is a result of a lot of parameters that you used, some of which you have to do best guesses on. You can get to "calculated optimums" that way that no driver can beat.
But the result of the calculation of an optimum is quite meaningless. This result is in fact given by the driver. The calculation helps understanding what you need to change in the system to get faster.

A lot of people think testing is all and simulation is just playing around, but that's wrong. They have different targets. In a good department, they work together closely. Good testing engineers and good simulation engineers know that.

And edit: Sorry for the use of "BS", that was uncalled for.
Your statement reminded me too much of that very popular "the bumblebee can't fly in theory, but it doesn't know it so it flies anyway". But the thing is, this has nothing to do with limits of theories, it just means the guy who calculated that bumblebees can't fly did something wrong... (most likely in this case: used wrong model assumptions).

 

[Blindside92]

Has been a few months since I played but tried it out tonight and I’m pretty happy with it. Cars feel like they don’t just excessively spin their tyres when taking off from a standstill anymore on sports soft tyres (which you’d imagine would be compatible to using semi-slicks irl), like they used to, which was a previous gripe of mine. You can still get them spinning in a high powered car, but they’ve got more forward grip/propulsion under wheelspin and hunker down, and get you moving along faster, despite the wheelspin. It now feels much more alike to what it’s like doing an aggressive take-off in real life. You don’t sit there bouncing off the limiter for 5-10secs before you finally get into 2nd fear, like how I remember it being before.

It feels maybe like you can more intuitively ‘feel’ what the weight/momentum is doing in your car now too. Probably a good sign.

Seems maybe a bit easier to hold/catch drifts now? ...Maybe a little too easy though?

Overall but I’m pretty happy.

It’s annoying that the throttle input still isn’t linear in this game (PD pls), hoping they’ll change that at some point.

 

[cleanLX]

Quite a read. I'm not going to argue "to update or not to update". FYI, I'm for updates, especially when they improve the game. This one did. Before I always had the feeling that, when getting in too hot, the car would slide and never come back. The whole "skating" thing. Real cars and real tires don't behave that way. Tires start to squirm, then creep, then slide. Back off the throttle, or your steering inputs, and traction starts to come back. With the new update, I feel like I'm on real tires. The old physics were way to on vs off in terms of traction, which gives no feel. The new physics have a much wider range of "stick" between none and fully stuck. I was driving the Alfa at DT when the update hit, and it took me 3 corners to know it was better. Not only was I faster (marginally, most likely) but the new model allowed me to push harder, and recover without loosing as much time. Like many here, I imagine, I can get into a corner too hot, then you get understeer and are trying to slow to get the tires to hook up. Now they will. As to the cars all understeering...in reality almost all cars do. They're designed to understeer when entering a corner too fast because it's more controllable than the opposite. I've found that most of the time when I think a car is understeering too much, I'm just driving it wrong. Need to loose more speed going in, and often times turn in earlier. Take a look at your lines at the beginning of the week when learning the track, and at the end when you can run faster, more consistent laps. I know I find that I'm usually turning in sooner and hitting the apexes better.

I couldn't get out of the 41's at DT last week until the update, then I did a 40 and within 10 laps was in the 39's. part was the increased traction, but lots was the increased stability, and the way that a small mistake could be driven around and wouldn't automatically end your lap. I probably did a whole string of mid to high 1:40"s that would have been a spin or a 1:50 lap before the update, and that is worth way more in a race than a few 10ths in a Q lap.

Thank you... good god, 150 posts before someone actually dissected/described the changes/feel.
Have not played the game in months, but will fire it up later this week... just because of this review.
And to think I almost skipped over/did not read due to the giant paragraph...

 

[Voodoovaj]

Maybe I'm old. I didn't grow up in the 21st century where games started to come out 50% finished.

Most other games don't alter the core gameplay mechanics after release. If the physics were broken on release day, the game shouldn't have been released, period.

No offense, but this is an erroneous and naive belief.

First, games TOTALLY came out unfinished. You simply didn't know any better because there wasn't an update to compare against.

Missing a release date is a big deal. Remember how some games were delayed for months or even years (or never released at all)? That doesn't happen anymore because the costs are so incredibly high now.

Since the release of GT5, we have been playing a live game. There was stuff in GT5 that was intended to be a feature in GT6. GT6 was a test bed for GT Sport features. Now, GT Sport is seeing features for whatever comes next. The game was released a year ago, so only the hard core are left playing. What better time to test changes for the next game without having to go to the hassle of an open Beta?

I don't grasp the idea that a poor implementation, or a problematic one, should be left alone because some people don't like a change.



Here is a shocking revelation for some of you. This change is very much akin to a change of tire brand. If you go from, say Michelin, to something like a Pirelli the behaviour will change. Different tires communicate differently. Some snap, some are progressive, some are good cold, some suck cold. So, again, comments on how this is a poor change seem to be coming from position of ignorance about the frame of reference.



One thing that has improved immensely is the difference between the compounds, especially on the race tires. Now, the wear to grip relationship makes complete sense whereas before 1.32, it made no sense. Before, the wear was different, but the grip dropped at the same rate, so if you had hards, yes they would wear somewhat more slowly, but the grip dropped off in such a way that using a different tire compound in a race was of little benefit. Now, if you have a different compound, the deterioration is different and the consistency is different, as it should be, so you can run hards and be more consistent across your laps from start to finish in the race, or you can run soft and have a few really fast laps. And, maybe most importantly, the lap time difference is not so great as to nullify the choice.

 

[QTheRacer_31]

One thing: Fix the RM tires. They don’t last much longer than RS tires but are too slow...

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

You can completely overcook the section over the mountain and be faster than hitting it clean. If you look at the current fastest two laps, they look wilder than I'm used to from the game's aliens and from real life GT3 drivers.

Being fast is about being precisely at the verge of under- and oversteering without really going into those. It seems that atm going all out and catching some slides is the fastest method.

I therefore now voted for "worse".

I don't feel you're being specific enough or that you might not understand the intent of slightly sliding to maximize your turning speed. It isn't the same thing as oversteer, which always loses speed. Speed isn't just about clean versus sliding... it's about entering the turn with the car balanced. If the car is balanced, any slide will be lateral as both the front and back end slide out at the same rate. Timing this well into an apex you can cause the car to laterally pivot with a better entry angle and a balanced car that can put the throttle down earlier. When you perform a lateral slide, it sounds like an oversteer but it's mechanically entirely different. It also complements trail braking very well sometimes requiring the use of the brake and throttle at the same time on some cars. Again, doing it, the wheels will sound like they are oversteering but it isn't.