The US War in Afghanistan

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We helped this dude fight the Soviets, then we won and left
"We" meaning the ISI with US financial support? ISI was responsible for arming the Mujahedeen. US was the sugar daddy that kicked in funds/weapons. The ISI has more of a role than the US IMO.
 

Keef

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"We" meaning the ISI with US financial support? ISI was responsible for arming the Mujahedeen. US was the sugar daddy that kicked in funds/weapons. The ISI has more of a role than the US IMO.
It's water under the bridge. The basic fact is that Massoud and his boys were friends of ours the entire time and still are, at least we hope after we gave the country back to his enemy and forced him to start all over again.
 
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Danoff

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I mostly like this. The justifications are good even if I'm not 100% in agreement with the order.


I think I put Obama above Bush. I never wanted the whole thing to start, but I think the death of Bin Laden was the ideal time to call it, save for cleanup, and I think I condemn him more for not ending it than I do Bush for starting it.

I was actually putting Biden above Trump here, which felt weird (I had to force tunnel vision to do it), and I even removed kneecapping the SIV/asylum process because it wasn't really part of the withdrawal bungle. It was tangential. But Bremmer makes a good point here, and the way he and his feckless cronies began the process made the mess more of a foregone conclusion than it had to be justifies the placement. I think Biden absolutely ****ed things up, but I also think some of the mismanagement has been tangential to the withdrawal and is subject to presently unknown factors.

But that's my $0.02, and I think it could easily change as an investigation bears fruit.
I think I wanna play this game:

4) Biden - exited, as we should, not in the best way, but ultimately it wasn't going to go much smoother.
3) Bush - So high on the list right! Well, when Bush created the mess it had a purpose. Maybe that purpose wasn't going to pay off ultimately, but it had vision and purpose and if it had worked out the way he hoped it would have been absolutely his legacy.
2) Trump - The deal with the Taliban is absolutely horrific. He set the whole thing up to fail like a set of dominoes. Trump forced our exit to be much worse than it had to be.
1) Obama - Duuuude... We got Bin Laden... wrap it up! I know it's ugly but damn... if there was ever a time to set a strong exit plan, it was then.


If you want to give Biden more blame because he was VP under Obama, he could head south on the list.
 
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Keef

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Let's see what Biden does with the AUMF. As for his involvement, he's mentioned in this new series. For the most part Biden seems to have a decent grasp on this stuff. And now that a lot of the 2000s-era neo-con warhawks are out of the picture I hope our stance on war changes throughout his terms.
 
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I think I wanna play this game:

4) Biden - exited, as we should, not in the best way, but ultimately it wasn't going to go much smoother.
3) Bush - So high on the list right! Well, when Bush created the mess it had a purpose. Maybe that purpose wasn't going to pay off ultimately, but it had vision and purpose and if it had worked out the way he hoped it would have been absolutely his legacy.
2) Trump - The deal with the Taliban is absolutely horrific. He set the whole thing up to fail like a set of dominoes. Trump forced our exit to be much worse than it had to be.
1) Obama - Duuuude... We got Bin Laden... wrap it up! I know it's ugly but damn... if there was ever a time to set a strong exit plan, it was then.


If you want to give Biden more blame because he was VP under Obama, he could head south on the list.
Interesting. So your ranking differs from mine in swapping Bush and Trump. I don't disagree with your assessment on Bush and it's not absurd that he takes less blame as a result.

Re: Trump... . Are you saying failure was inevitable the way it was all put forth (inept) or failure was part of the the plan (malicious)?

I've considered malice. With four plus years to understand Trump, that just seems so on brand that it's not inconceivable. I think he expected to be one and done and there could have been an effort to salt the earth (particularly domestically with COVID but there's no reason to assume it'd stop there) and the deals were just so spectacularly bad that mere ineptitude actually seems farfetched.

Still, this consideration isn't weighted in my ranking because a lot of it is indulging my cynicism.

I think Obama deferred to the hawks and I just don't think Biden is really one of them. I'm not prepared to weight his role as VP into the ranking without more information.

Let's see what Biden does with the AUMF. As for his involvement, he's mentioned in this new series. For the most part Biden seems to have a decent grasp on this stuff. And now that a lot of the 2000s-era neo-con warhawks are out of the picture I hope our stance on war changes throughout his terms.
I know Rep. Lee is still active and I gather she's pushing to dump AUMF as other Democratic members are. I don't know that it's exclusively a progressive thing (I don't think my opposition to the AUMF as a moderate is substantive here because I'm not in a position of power), though Biden, to his credit, seems to be really considering the wants of the progressive wing and this looks like one of them. Still, Biden could end up being just enough of a hawk when it comes to terrorism that calls for AUMF repeal fall on deaf ears. He obviously voted for it in the first place because Lee was the single member of Congress who voted against.
 

Keef

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I know Rep. Lee is still active and I gather she's pushing to dump AUMF as other Democratic members are. I don't know that it's exclusively a progressive thing (I don't think my opposition to the AUMF as a moderate is substantive here because I'm not in a position of power), though Biden, to his credit, seems to be really considering the wants of the progressive wing and this looks like one of them. Still, Biden could end up being just enough of a hawk when it comes to terrorism that calls for AUMF repeal fall on deaf ears. He obviously voted for it in the first place because Lee was the single member of Congress who voted against.
The excuse so many people in Congress gave was basically that something had to be done against an unorganized enemy and the AUMF allowed that leeway. Emotions ran so high that they didn't think for a second beyond that. Somehow I'd never really known much about this at all and at this point in 2021 I'm not entirely sure how many younger congress people even know about it. Some of them are even younger than me and I'm having to relearn everything that was swept under the rug for over half my life. I think we should absolutely not let Biden forget that he voted for the AUMF, didn't argue against it as VP, and apparently just used it again the other day in retaliating against the airport attack (justified, but see, it's complicated).

The crazy thing is that we're so active against terrorism-type stuff around the world that people off the street, and probably most of us here, definitely myself, have no idea where all we're actually active. And we've got very big, very organized problems on the horizon so assuming we're quite active in random engagements all over the place it calls into question the importance of that AUMF and whether all of these activities matter all that much or can even be sustained.
 
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The excuse so many people in Congress gave was basically that something had to be done against an unorganized enemy and the AUMF allowed that leeway. Emotions ran so high that they didn't think for a second beyond that. Somehow I'd never really known much about this at all and at this point in 2021 I'm not entirely sure how many younger congress people even know about it. Some of them are even younger than me and I'm having to relearn everything that was swept under the rug for over half my life. I think we should absolutely not let Biden forget that he voted for the AUMF, didn't argue against it as VP, and apparently just used it again the other day in retaliating against the airport attack (justified, but see, it's complicated).

The crazy thing is that we're so active against terrorism-type stuff around the world that people off the street, and probably most of us here, definitely myself, have no idea where all we're actually active. And we've got very big, very organized problems on the horizon so assuming we're quite active in random engagements all over the place it calls into question the importance of that AUMF and whether all of these activities matter all that much or can even be sustained.
Emotions were high. It was a reactionary measure. I don't think things were necessarily swept under the rug; I was pretty well focused on a small child at the time and I still remember much of this stuff. But in hingsight, I probably should have acquiesced less to the emotional response. War powers need to be a matter for Congress.

I was listening to a good interview about AUMF repeal just the other day. I need to find that again.
 

Danoff

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Interesting. So your ranking differs from mine in swapping Bush and Trump. I don't disagree with your assessment on Bush and it's not absurd that he takes less blame as a result.

Re: Trump... . Are you saying failure was inevitable the way it was all put forth (inept) or failure was part of the the plan (malicious)?

I've considered malice. With four plus years to understand Trump, that just seems so on brand that it's not inconceivable. I think he expected to be one and done and there could have been an effort to salt the earth (particularly domestically with COVID but there's no reason to assume it'd stop there) and the deals were just so spectacularly bad that mere ineptitude actually seems farfetched.
I was more thinking of Trump as having been careless - careless with the outcome he was putting in place for the people of Afghanistan. His outlook on the nation seemed to be "it's a s-hole country, it's going to be a s-hole country". So much of the terrible outcome here has to do with what exactly we left, and that's really what Trump laid out. I don't know for sure what else was possible, but it's Trump's framework, so I place the blame for it mostly with him.
 
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Dotini

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I'm quite satisfied Biden has finally done the necessary thing in pulling out of Afghanistan. Yes, he's coming in for considerable criticism from erstwhile allies and supporters. But I think this is temporary hand-wringing and crocodile tears. The gain in support Biden will receive from anti-war patriots and populists in general will eventually reflect in his base of political support, IMHO. I have no idea if Biden himself is the author of this, I think deft policy, or his considerable network of advisors.
 
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The timing that Trump did the "deal" makes it so clearly a cynical "this will improve my numbers going into the election in a few months" that I'm shocked he didn't hammer Biden for his record as a Senator and Vice President over Afghanistan even more; and I wouldn't be surprised if "I'm going to win because of this" was the extent of long term consequences Trump thought about.
 
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TonyJZX

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I think because back in post 9/11 land everyone, blue or red or orange, was all for the adventures in iraq and afghanistan.

Trump was all for it himself given that he claimed he saw muslims in new york 'celebrating'. So its a pot calling the kettle situation.

Be that as it may, Trump calling out Biden for his warhawk stance isnt a likely to move the needle in any respect anyway.

Also I think the American public has a hazy memory of certain issues post 9/11 - the classic example is certain people berating Obama for his poor handling of 9/11.

This is the standard you're facing!
 
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I think because back in post 9/11 land everyone, blue or red or orange, was all for the adventures in iraq and afghanistan.

Trump was all for it himself given that he claimed he saw muslims in new york 'celebrating'. So its a pot calling the kettle situation.

Be that as it may, Trump calling out Biden for his warhawk stance isnt a likely to move the needle in any respect anyway.

Also I think the American public has a hazy memory of certain issues post 9/11 - the classic example is certain people berating Obama for his poor handling of 9/11.

This is the standard you're facing!
...

What?
 

ryzno

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What do you mean by this??
I don't know what his point was but I do recall seeing an article way back when, where Trump claimed he saw Muslims celebrating something and chanting death to America.
I think his point is Trump is a hypocrite for calling Biden a warhawk when as President he had no problem wagging our huge military shlong at NK and any other country that he thought stood in our way.
 

Keef

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Odd that that publication is called The Federalist, presumably based on Hamilton's ideology which patently favored central government authority and was left-leaning for the time.
 
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Odd that that publication is called The Federalist, presumably based on Hamilton's ideology which patently favored central government authority and was left-leaning for the time.
You might think that if you knew nothing about it. Here's something. It was founded by this chunky monkey:

image.jpg


He actually wrote in defense of vaccine mandates in 2015 when most people opposed to vaccination were black and/or believed in the healing power of crystals. His stance has changed more than slightly with COVID-19.
 
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TonyJZX

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I find it hard to blame Obama on a lot of things. I feel he's that people think Obama is some kind of supreme leader who can do whatever he wants... was that really true?

Obama ran on getting out of Iraq Afghanistan and closing Gitmo.

Was that at all possible with the opposition he was getting?

How many roadblocks was put on him by other elements of his own and the other party? If he did get out and it blew up on him who would wear the blame? Like the way Biden is getting now? Or do you kick the can down the road?

Did you think he was going to executive order this like other people?

Dont get me wrong... he's weak on a lot of things and he wraps it up with smooth talking charisma. But its still inaction but people sit there as if the "other" is a black dictator but also weak and feckless.
 
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SoS Antony Blinken, the third highest ranking official on foreign policy execution behind only the President and Vice President, is before Congress to be grilled about the Afghanistan withdrawal cluster****, which is ****ing important stuff that actually needs to be understood, and the GOP is tilting into aggressively ****ing stupid ********.


Oh and "widely reported" is meaningless.

Modern American conservatism is mental ****ing illness.
 

Danoff

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SoS Antony Blinken, the third highest ranking official on foreign policy execution behind only the President and Vice President, is before Congress to be grilled about the Afghanistan withdrawal cluster*, which is ing important stuff that actually needs to be understood, and the GOP is tilting into aggressively ****ing stupid *.


Oh and "widely reported" is meaningless.

Modern American conservatism is mental ****ing illness.
I need a facepalm emoji on the like button. I'm gonna go ask for that.
 
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Lol, the ole "think of the children". You know, if the right wanted to protect children you'd think they'd take accusations of the rape of minors a little bit more seriously.

The reality is that most of the politicians on both sides seem like they'd shovel children into a woodchipper with a pitchfork if they thought that would get them re-elected.
 
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I need a facepalm emoji on the like button. I'm gonna go ask for that.
I hope this isn't hyperbole just to emphasize how pathetic that line of questioning was. I'm prepared to second the request.
 
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Was literally about to post that it seems like I was correct that Afghanistan was starting to fall out of the news cycle...but with THIS, I think it will stay fresh for a bit longer.

Real pros we got manning those drones....
 
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Was literally about to post that it seems like I was correct that Afghanistan was starting to fall out of the news cycle...but with THIS, I think it will stay fresh for a bit longer.

Real pros we got manning those drones....
Is that the one that killed the aid worker and his family?