Throttle smashing - F1 style?

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K3Tuning

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Blip the throttle not only shifts weight back but forwards too. Sort of back n forth as you blip.

I think Senna was doing so to find the balance on the limit. Senna pushed his car to its absolut limits and danced on them. Watch him in any wet race and he was a cut above the rest.

Cannot compare car control between Schumacher and Senna. The car Schumacher was driving when Senna died had illegal traction control systems and AFTER Sennas death the F1 cars continuously evolved. Can't compare Schumacher reactions in a newer generation F1 to Senna in an older generation F1 as they are so very different.

When I see Schumacher telemetry I ask to see the engine output data or something to show no hidden TCS is in use, just looking at his graphs and thinking hmmmm IF he had been using TCS it would of been blipping throttle for him.....

Schumacher was one of the biggest cheats in F1 history, and probably the dirtiest driver I've ever seen outside them British Touring car nutcases.
 
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2,865
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Theresa, Wisconsin
Blip the throttle not only shifts weight back but forwards too. Sort of back n forth as you blip.

I think Senna was doing so to find the balance on the limit. Senna pushed his car to its absolut limits and danced on them. Watch him in any wet race and he was a cut above the rest.

Cannot compare car control between Schumacher and Senna. The car Schumacher was driving when Senna died had illegal traction control systems and AFTER Sennas death the F1 cars continuously evolved. Can't compare Schumacher reactions in a newer generation F1 to Senna in an older generation F1 as they are so very different.

When I see Schumacher telemetry I ask to see the engine output data or something to show no hidden TCS is in use, just looking at his graphs and thinking hmmmm IF he had been using TCS it would of been blipping throttle for him.....

Schumacher was one of the biggest cheats in F1 history, and probably the dirtiest driver I've ever seen outside them British Touring car nutcases.

You are correct, Schumis Bennetton had illegal TCS software in the computer but it was disabled by Renault who if you remember was Bennettons engine partner at the time. That's why Schumi/Bennetton were never punished for this, I believe it was McLalren/Peugeot who was also found to have the same software disabled in their PCM at the same time but like the Bennetton it was also disabled, incidentally the FIA also found a programming error in McLarens PCM that was costing them substantial performance, mighty good of them to fix that for McLaren.
 

K3Tuning

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You are correct, Schumis Bennetton had illegal TCS software in the computer but it was disabled by Renault who if you remember was Bennettons engine partner at the time. That's why Schumi/Bennetton were never punished for this, I believe it was McLalren/Peugeot who was also found to have the same software disabled in their PCM at the same time but like the Bennetton it was also disabled, incidentally the FIA also found a programming error in McLarens PCM that was costing them substantial performance, mighty good of them to fix that for McLaren.


Im of the opinion they let it slide because they couldn't prove he had used it. However Schumacher DID have the ability to use the system the whole time. When they confiscated the ecu they found the driver could pull up and use the system with cleaver trick menu selections.

Something about selecting a blank option and some other stuff and PRESTO illegal system back on none the wiser.

Ayrton Senna gained his suspicions listening to Schumachers car he could hear it way way way before they found the hidden software.

I fully believe Schumacher was using that system, I fully believe Ayrtons suspicions and the ecu software being found only strengthen my belief.

They basically were realizing their limitations on regulating software based traction control systems at the time.

That team was pure cheaters as the pit fire got FiA checking the fueling set up and they were caught cheating again as they had removed a safety filter to flow fuel faster and caused the fire

Something was always Special about Schumachers car at team Bennetton.
 
2,865
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
Im of the opinion they let it slide because they couldn't prove he had used it. However Schumacher DID have the ability to use the system the whole time. When they confiscated the ecu they found the driver could pull up and use the system with cleaver trick menu selections.

Something about selecting a blank option and some other stuff and PRESTO illegal system back on none the wiser.

Ayrton Senna gained his suspicions listening to Schumachers car he could hear it way way way before they found the hidden software.

I fully believe Schumacher was using that system, I fully believe Ayrtons suspicions and the ecu software being found only strengthen my belief.

They basically were realizing their limitations on regulating software based traction control systems at the time.

That team was pure cheaters as the pit fire got FiA checking the fueling set up and they were caught cheating again as they had removed a safety filter to flow fuel faster and caused the fire

Something was always Special about Schumachers car at team Bennetton.

The fire is a great example, Bennetton were not the only team to remove the filter from their refueling rigs, other teams did too. Intertechnique and the FIA came to the conclusion that a piece of foreign material held the refueling nozzle open, if that were the case doesnt it seem that it would have still been there when the rig was inspected? When you compete against other teams in something as technical as auto racing I think it's pretty normal to think another team is doing something under handed if they are consistently beating you especially if your team is taking advantage of some of the "grey areas" of the rule book. Yet Schumi went to Ferrari a continued winning so are we to assume they must have been cheating too. As far as TCS back in the 90's it would have been much more difficult to conceal the use of something like traction control and launch control and let's not also forget that Schumi almost stalled the car at the start of one race when he was allegedly using launch control, something that would not happen if they were using it. I think when you are racing in F1 on the world's stage teams cant take a chance at outright cheating, there is too much to lose. For example, the flexi wing on the front of Vettels dominant Red Bull I would not call cheating, Newey found a way to build a wing that would pass all of the FIA's testing and flex at the same time, good for them, that's not cheating, the wings passed all required tests. That is the difference between winning and losing, stuff like that happens every year in every form of motorsport.
 
1,294
United States
Kansas City/MO/US
Xamot
BallPtPenTheif
Cannot compare car control between Schumacher and Senna.

We did and it was beneficial to this discussion.

The point for the comparison was simply observing how the throttle can be used to balance the car, be it through a constant even input or even a staccato applicaiton. The morality and ethics of a traction control system is not relevant to this discussion, since even if the TCS was causing a constant 15% throttle application we would still be trying to mimic the telemetry in the game anyways.
 

nuu1212

(Banned)
282
Germany
Germany
Completely different aspect:
In RC car racing, everybody pulses the throttle. Probable reason: Everything happens so fast that you cannot react in time, e.g. apply half throttle, feel/see the car oversteer and then reduce it.

Maybe older F1 was a bit like this. If you applied too much throttle, you could not reduce it in time (also a lag involved!) to avoid the spin out. So pulsing might be better than a low percentage.
Besides (maybe mentioned before) Senna got a feel for how close the car was to the limit by observing the reaction to his pulses.

One more thought I really like:
Senna was so insanely fast, even with his poor throttling he was way ahead of everybody else
 
620
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GTRP_mirial
Blip the throttle not only shifts weight back but forwards too. Sort of back n forth as you blip.

Cannot compare car control between Schumacher and Senna. The car Schumacher was driving when Senna died had illegal traction control systems and AFTER Sennas death the F1 cars continuously evolved. Can't compare Schumacher reactions in a newer generation F1 to Senna in an older generation F1 as they are so very different.

I was referring to footage just by watching the rear tyres break loose very closely and in particular Schumacher in '95 and '96 in qualifying where the back of the car breaks away more quickly but with virtually no tyre scrub. Indeed, the cars when they went from the 18" to 15" rears in '92-'93 were harder to drive merely because less rubber in contact with the road will give you less warning when they are approaching the limit.

 

K3Tuning

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I figured as much, but its not a fair comparison. If they were 2 team mates with almost identicle cars then okay, but not the same car, not the same generation, so much different. Heck a lose set up vs tight set up on the same car willbe different enough.
 
2,865
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
I was referring to footage just by watching the rear tyres break loose very closely and in particular Schumacher in '95 and '96 in qualifying where the back of the car breaks away more quickly but with virtually no tyre scrub. Indeed, the cars when they went from the 18" to 15" rears in '92-'93 were harder to drive merely because less rubber in contact with the road will give you less warning when they are approaching the limit.



Thank you for sharing that very depressing F1 video, the cars today with hybrids are are so boring by comparison.:) Gotta love that glorious sound of F1's past.
 

nuu1212

(Banned)
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This weeks Race A (Fuji short) seems to be a pretty good "playground" to test this pulsing throttle approach.
In Turns 4+5 (the fast 180deg right hander) the Supra tends to understeer and or slide in a strange way at constant throttle.
Must be those crappy SH tires.
Some pulsing (slow works, too) seems to make it turn better, while also being faster on average.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
Has anyone pointed out diff settings? I recall a documentary about the 956 and the Porsche engineer in the video mentioned that the differential was an integral part of the handling of the car. So, "mashing" the throttle may of may not work depending on the car.

I have used pretty much all the cars and how you apply the throttle does differ. Some you can mash, some you can't. Some, like the GR3 Lambo or GR3 Renault, you can't ever fully lift (almost) or it will spin.
 
620
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
I figured as much, but its not a fair comparison. If they were 2 team mates with almost identicle cars then okay, but not the same car, not the same generation, so much different. Heck a lose set up vs tight set up on the same car willbe different enough.

Perhaps the best way to compare Senna and Schumacher would be to analyse the '93 season where the Benetton had a bit more power but didn't handle quite as well as the McLaren. But I do think Senna was definitely faster in Qualifying by virtue that his car set-up was conducive to him being able to dig deeper.
Thank you for sharing that very depressing F1 video, the cars today with hybrids are are so boring by comparison.:) Gotta love that glorious sound of F1's past.

I know, but the engineers and the big cheeses couldn't give two fiddlers about the art of driving or the spectacle because they have never experienced driving on the limit. What bothers me is that the younger people who Liberty are trying to engage simply wouldn't get the video I posted at all. Some camera angles are to change this year to make it appear FASTER which will make for impossible viewing for older fans like me used to static camera views. FFS.....
 
Hi,

This video?



This is exactly what I was talking about in my first message in this thread!!!

Having done some more, very unscientific, testing - I am convinced that it works for me ( at least )

Has anyone else had a go at it please?

Cheers.

Ian

There is also a video of him doing it in a EF9 civic!!
 

K3Tuning

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Perhaps the best way to compare Senna and Schumacher would be to analyse the '93 season where the Benetton had a bit more power but didn't handle quite as well as the McLaren. But I do think Senna was definitely faster in Qualifying by virtue that his car set-up was conducive to him being able to dig deeper......

Not really thats the time when computer assist were at the peak. Comparing one cars kick out to a next even if in the same race would be clouded by how much of a factor is the software, how much better programing is one vs the other, on top of the 2 cars differences, on top of set up differences before we can begin to compare driver ability one vs the next by comparing inputs.

Senna was Runner up 93 only because Williams car was so far ahead of everybody else, Schumacher didn't even challenge Senna.

Its these very systems that were banned the following year, those very same sytems deemed illegal the Bennetton team kept hidden in the software so that Schumacher could keep using it and at the Same time Senna was pushing his tech stripped Williams faster than what the unstable car was good for. Senna was calling out Schumachers car still had driver aids before anybody and before they found the hidden software proving he was right...

It wasn't until after Senna crash williams got the car Sorted. If only Senna had not been taken from the world, it would of been Schumacher vs Senna instead of Damon Hill, and Schumacher would not have all those championships.

Schumacher has no business being compared to Senna.

Schumacher is a turd stain on F1's underoo's Along with Alain Prost and Jean Marie Balestre, who if not for Balestre using his power to rob Senna in favor of his France Driver Prost. Senna would of had more championships to his credit.
 
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2,865
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
Not really thats the time when computer assist were at the peak. Comparing one cars kick out to a next even if in the same race would be clouded by how much of a factor is the software, how much better programing is one vs the other, on top of the 2 cars differences, on top of set up differences before we can begin to compare driver ability one vs the next by comparing inputs.

Senna was Runner up 93 only because Williams car was so far ahead of everybody else, Schumacher didn't even challenge Senna.

Its these very systems that were banned the following year, those very same sytems deemed illegal the Bennetton team kept hidden in the software so that Schumacher could keep using it and at the Same time Senna was pushing his tech stripped Williams faster than what the unstable car was good for. Senna was calling out Schumachers car still had driver aids before anybody and before they found the hidden software proving he was right...

It wasn't until after Senna crash williams got the car Sorted. If only Senna had not been taken from the world, it would of been Schumacher vs Senna instead of Damon Hill, and Schumacher would not have all those championships.

Schumacher has no business being compared to Senna.

Schumacher is a turd stain on F1's underoo's Along with Alain Prost and Jean Marie Balestre, who if not for Balestre using his power to rob Senna in favor of his France Driver Prost. Senna would of had more championships to his credit.

It is simply your opinion that Schumi/Bennetton were cheating yet you state that like it's a fact. Since Bennetton had no control over the engine ECU it is likely that they did not even know that the TCS codes were still in the ECM programming. Do you really think a team at that level can really expose themselves to risk of being caught cheating??
 

K3Tuning

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The programming was changed when the rules banned the electronic aids for the 94 season. The change instead of removing the systems, kept them hidden in the code with trick menu selections to turn them in a way that is hidden. Schumacher had the ability to use them in 94 until the computer was confiscated.

Its my opinion Schumacher used them that was also Ayrton Senna's opinion. My opinion is only one that agrees with Senna and others after looking at Bennnetton in 94. A season Bennetton was caught cheating in other ways too. They had removed a safety filter from the fuel filler that increased the rate they could refuel and cut around a second off a pit stop. This eventually was discovered after the lack of safety piece cause a pit fire and it was discovered missing.

Many things lead me to believe Bennetton was cheating in both those cases and probably more ways undiscovered.

Its controversial like if OJ did it. No it wasnt proven he did it, but everybody knows he did.



 
2,865
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
The programming was changed when the rules banned the electronic aids for the 94 season. The change instead of removing the systems, kept them hidden in the code with trick menu selections to turn them in a way that is hidden. Schumacher had the ability to use them in 94 until the computer was confiscated.

Its my opinion Schumacher used them that was also Ayrton Senna's opinion. My opinion is only one that agrees with Senna and others after looking at Bennnetton in 94. A season Bennetton was caught cheating in other ways too. They had removed a safety filter from the fuel filler that increased the rate they could refuel and cut around a second off a pit stop. This eventually was discovered after the lack of safety piece cause a pit fire and it was discovered missing.

Many things lead me to believe Bennetton was cheating in both those cases and probably more ways undiscovered.

Its controversial like if OJ did it. No it wasnt proven he did it, but everybody knows he did.





Once again Bennetton/Renault were not the only team to have the TCS source codes in their PCM and they were also not the only team to have removed the filter from their refueling rig, they were just the only team accused of cheating, most likely because they were winning races. Bennetton had no control over what source codes may or may not have been in the PCM as that was proprietary information supplied by Renault. There are also a lot of people out there who think William's was negligent in modifying Sennas steering column and thought team members should have been charged with manslaughter, just like the case with Bennetton/Renault I tend to believe far too many people put on their tin foil caps daily and buy into these conspiracy theories. Those same people also believe Merc sabbatoged Hamiltons car so Nico could win the championship, really????!!!!!
 

K3Tuning

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Once again Bennetton/Renault were not the only team to have the TCS source codes in their PCM and they were also not the only team to have removed the filter from their refueling rig, they were just the only team accused of cheating, most likely because they were winning races. Bennetton had no control over what source codes may or may not have been in the PCM as that was proprietary information supplied by Renault.

Never said they were the only ones with the code, they were the only ones where it was proven to be still accessible, where as Mclaren it couldn't work but code was still there.

Did not say they were the only ones ;)

Now think whatever you want but all that proprietary noise to me was just that, noise to avoid giving up the source code. Bennetton knew what was up bei it working with Renealt or how ever it was done, irrelevant, it was accessible to Schumacher and I along with many others including Ayrton Senna believed Schumacher used it.

There are also a lot of people out there who think William's was negligent in modifying Sennas steering column and thought team members should have been charged with manslaughter,

I question their ruling out a broken steering column due to telemetry reading. The rule out conveniently makes it nobody's fault... But thats another topic.

just like the case with Bennetton/Renault I tend to believe far too many people put on their tin foil caps daily and buy into these conspiracy theories. Those same people also believe Merc sabbatoged Hamiltons car so Nico could win the championship, really????!!!!!

In this case more people believed he cheated than those who think he didn't. In this case you're the FlatEarther. Do you think OJ was innocent too?
 
2,865
United States
Theresa, Wisconsin
Before we completely lose it, lets say the truth is somewhere in the middle

I agree.
Some people just dont understand that when millions in sponsorship are involved with companies operating worldwide teams do not have the option of flat out cheating. Just because someones favorite driver says something 2 minutes after climbing out of the 2nd or 3rd place car that day also does not make it true. I am done commenting about this because it is not related to the original thread content.
 

K3Tuning

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I cant believe sonebody can be so naive. Cheating happens more often then some like to admit lol they give penalties and fines disquallifications, stuff happens.

But whatever, the Earth is Flat eh lol OJ is innocent.
 
620
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
Not really thats the time when computer assist were at the peak. Comparing one cars kick out to a next even if in the same race would be clouded by how much of a factor is the software, how much better programing is one vs the other, on top of the 2 cars differences, on top of set up differences before we can begin to compare driver ability one vs the next by comparing inputs.

Senna was Runner up 93 only because Williams car was so far ahead of everybody else, Schumacher didn't even challenge Senna.

Its these very systems that were banned the following year, those very same sytems deemed illegal the Bennetton team kept hidden in the software so that Schumacher could keep using it and at the Same time Senna was pushing his tech stripped Williams faster than what the unstable car was good for. Senna was calling out Schumachers car still had driver aids before anybody and before they found the hidden software proving he was right...

It wasn't until after Senna crash williams got the car Sorted. If only Senna had not been taken from the world, it would of been Schumacher vs Senna instead of Damon Hill, and Schumacher would not have all those championships.

Schumacher has no business being compared to Senna.

Schumacher is a turd stain on F1's underoo's Along with Alain Prost and Jean Marie Balestre, who if not for Balestre using his power to rob Senna in favor of his France Driver Prost. Senna would of had more championships to his credit.

Brundle said once that he thought that Schumacher was naturally faster (which doesn't necessarily mean faster at their peaks), but that Senna was able to dig deeper and I would agree. I understand that Schumacher's career was stained with the whole Benetton thing back in '94 and dubious blocking tactics over the years, plus careful selection of team mates, but we know Senna was prepared to race anyone on equal terms and only exercised very robust tactics.

Prost with the ideal setup, and when he was in the mood was comparable to Senna in the races with the same or evenly matched cars IMO, but Schumacher was always in the mood and could adapt to any kind of handling or conditions. If you check the Qualifying times from 93, where in fact McLaren did eventually use a customer version of the same V8 as Benetton, they are close with them out-qualifying each other fairly evenly.

Anyway, this is a bit off-topic; I still think Schumacher's technique to get round the mid-corner understeer problem is better than Senna's throttle stabbing technique to generate pitching and to maintain being on the power. Schumacher's technique was just as delicate except he had less of a safety net.