Transgender Thread.

[Com Fox]

Interesting how this debate lingers and the ways both sides a backed up.

For me, while I do believe in be who you want to be. An issue is that the official term of gender totally denies more than 2 genders as according to the definition "the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)". I sort of see it that way more than multiple genders. There is also stuff that scientifically exist like Intersex but that seems to be more of the lines of being either both genders or having no gender.

The most interesting part comes from Transgenders, Gender Queer, Agender etc. The thing is, at least in my opinion, these are just gender identities and while they are important on what people find comfortable being and I support them identifying themselves, I do think Gender Identity and Gender in general to be completely different. I'm fine with any gender you identify yourself with though it really just mean if you identify yourself as Male, Female, Both or None, if you are Male that identifies yourself as a Female then that is that. There is no special gender classification of gender for you, you aren't in your own little gender group, same goes for Agenders, Gender Queers etc.

Though I'd like to hear from the side that support there being more than 2 genders and why that is and perhaps I might of got a bit of my facts or reasons mixed up.

 

[Liquid]

Sex - What your dangly bits downstairs are
Gender - What you feel you are upstairs

No?

 

[Com Fox]

Gender - What you feel you are upstairs

That's mostly is definition of Gender Identity. There are multiple sort of forms of gender but Identity is really what you feel you are despite what you are genetically.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That's mostly is definition of Gender Identity.

Incorrect. "Sex" is the term for biological attributes, "gender" is the term for social/political attributes... and the thread title should say "are there 2 genders or more"

Where the difference lies in "gender identity" is that the identity is felt or decided by oneself whereas "gender" as an open attribute can be imposed by society as much as by oneself.

 

[Com Fox]

Incorrect. "Sex" is the term for biological attributes, "gender" is the term for social/political attributes... and the thread title should say "are there 2 genders or more"

Where the difference lies in "gender identity" is that the identity is felt or decided by oneself whereas "gender" as an open attribute can be imposed by society as much as by oneself.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake. Fixed it,

 

[Dennisch]

No, don't care and I blame tumblr.

 

[Dan]

 

[Danoff]

Voted 2 - male/female.

Gender is the physiology. It's simplistic to say that it's the genitalia, but I think overall physiology is closer to the truth. If you have male physiology, you're male. If you have female physiology, you're female. If you have both, you're both. As far as I know you can't have neither. I don't care if you alter your physiology, wear clothes normally associated with the other physiology, or emulate any of the other aspects normally associated with the other gender.

"Gender identity" is a weird construct of society based on the behavior of what we think most people of a particular physiology tend to adopt.

The gentleman in the photo above need not "associate" with either gender. He is of a particular gender. There's nothing wrong with a male looking like that and wearing those clothes. There's no reason for him to try to simplify things and redefine his gender unless we adopt the notion that there really is something wrong with a male individual looking like that and wearing those clothes. In short, unless you adopt the notion that it's wrong for Kaitlyn Jenner to be a man and look and act like he does right now, there's no reason for him to redefine as a female. It's implicitly bigoted to insist that you should be called a girl when you "identify" as a girl but are a guy.

 

[huskeR32]

It's implicitly bigoted to insist that you should be called a girl when you "identify" as a girl but are a guy.

That's a stretch. One needn't dislike one gender to feel more comfortable socially identifying as the other.

 

[squadops]

That's a stretch. One needn't dislike one gender to feel more comfortable socially identifying as the other.

You either have a dingle dangle or you don't, isn't it a simple case of biology?

 

[Ialyrn]

@Danoff The problem is you are neglecting all the valid scientific data and research that has been done on all of this, especially in regards to Chromosomes (not everyone in the world has the correct chromosomes for their physical sex), and even how a fetus is formed in the womb. Sometimes there can be a mismatch between the embryonic hormones at specific development points in prenatal development. Or even our mother having an insensitivity to certain hormones, or even becoming immunized to certain antigens within the body that are needed during pregnancy. These things affect how a fetus may develop. These things can and do lead to physical changes in prenatal brain development, and there have been studies to show that there are genuine physical differences in a transsexual/transgender persons brain before any cross-sex hormones are taken. Which goes to show that the whole 'gender' thing may be more physical than mental. The biggest thing is the fact that the genitals and brain form at 2 separate points during pregnancy, and sometimes there is a misalignment between both.

In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). “Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,” says Guillamon.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

“Trans people have brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain,” Guillamon says. “It is simplistic to say that a female-to-male transgender person is a female trapped in a male body. It's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain.” Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

In the 1990s, scientists began to compare these sexually dimorphic regions in the brains of transsexuals and the rest of humanity. Early work in this area required the examination of brains postmortem; recent studies use images of the living brain.

The results show that when individuals of Sex A—despite having the chromosomes, gonads and sex hormones of that sex—insist that they're really Sex B, the gender-affected parts of the brain typically more closely resemble what's usually seen with Sex B.

Consider an obscure brain region called the forceps minor (part of the corpus callosum, a mass of fibers that connect the brain's two hemispheres). On average, among nontranssexuals, the forceps minor of males contains parallel nerve fibers of higher density than in females. But the density in female-to-male transsexuals is equivalent to that in typical males.

As another example, the hypothalamus, a hormone-producing part of the brain, is activated in nontranssexual men by the scent of estrogen, but in women—and male-to-female transsexuals—by the scent of androgens, male-associated hormones.

Two arguments against these findings come to mind. First, sex-reassignment surgery involves treatment with cross-sex hormones that alter the brain. This is true, but the differences in the brains of transsexuals are there before hormone treatments start. Secondly, maybe these findings aren't about the sex one identifies with but are instead about the sex one is attracted to. But no, the findings are the same in transsexual individuals who are attracted to the same or to the opposite sex.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704

So as you can see, it is not as straight forward as you might think. And this is the reason why Doctors no longer try to treat the minds of transsexual individuals, but rather treat the body. Back when they used to treat the mind, and I use the term loosely. They used such things as lobotomy's, shock therapy, psychiatric drugs and institutionalizing people. A lot of the treatments often resulted in brain damage, and even in the worst case scenarios, death.

The problem here is that you can not treat the mind, if the mind is physically different in the first place. As I have shown above, genuine research has been going on in regards to the brains for male, female, and transsexual brains.

There are also other things throughout history also, things that show the human race used to be much more knowledgeable and accepting on the whole 'gender' thing too. Such as in Ancient Greece, where some gods where considered to be both male and female, and some even as intersex or hermaphrodites.

Take Hermaphroditus for example:
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/H/Hermaphroditus.html

This is also a good article to read:

It’s clear that a significant segment of human society has difficulty accepting that transsexuality is a real medical condition which is part of our inherited genetics. The common tactic of the blatant transphobe is to dismiss us as freaks, psychopaths, or even monsters deserving of involuntary institutionalism. The casual transphobe, or crafty one, will instead often use phrasing, like this copied from an online debate I participated in.

“Hey, I don’t care if someone thinks they’re Napoleon. What. Ever. But don’t expect me to salute them or call them Emperer[sic]. That would make me as crazy as they are. This is just common sense, people.”

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

[huskeR32]

You either have a dingle dangle or you don't, isn't it a simple case of biology?

Read @TenEightyOne's post above for the difference between sex and gender. You're talking about the former, I'm talking about the latter.

Oh, and color me shocked that you were the first one to come throw out an utterly dismissive answer of a question that is very important to a lot of people.

 

[squadops]

I'm not being dismissive, leave it to you to jump down my throat lol.

If it's biology then it's black and white, if it's emotion then it is whatever. I'll let you in on a little secret; I've been surrounded with women my whole life, in many ways I am fem simply because I relate with that side of myself. Biologically I am male, sexually I am male and hetero, and I always get the ladies 👍

 

[Brend]

I believe you can identify yourself as what ever you want to be, however the constructs of biology severely limit any sort of real shout of defining what your 'sex' is.

Personally, I'm with Sonic on this one:

http://ageof****lords.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/sonic-original-twit.png

 

[TenEightyOne]

You either have a dingle dangle or you don't, isn't it a simple case of biology?

A little more complex than that, and one could point at that at one point your dingle dangle could have been one or the other. The same with your floppely doppelies, of course.

 

[Ialyrn]

And that is at least 2 people who have fully ignored my post, and the real and very genuine scientifically proven data from research doctors that shows there is a very real physical difference between the brains of male, female, and transsexual/transgender people.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Gender is the physiology. It's simplistic to say that it's the genitalia, but I think overall physiology is closer to the truth. If you have male physiology, you're male. If you have female physiology, you're female.

Nope;

Sex: Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions. If you have both, you're both. As far as I know you can't have neither. I don't care if you alter your physiology, wear clothes normally associated with the other physiology, or emulate any of the other aspects normally associated with the other gender.

Gender: [MASS NOUN] The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)

That's unless there's a different in American English, if so I couldn't find it.

 

[Danoff]

That's a stretch. One needn't dislike one gender to feel more comfortable socially identifying as the other.

It implies something to identify with. Thus the implicit assumptions.

@Danoff The problem is you are neglecting all the valid scientific data and research that has been done on all of this, especially in regards to Chromosomes (not everyone in the world has the correct chromosomes for their physical sex), and even how a fetus is formed in the womb. Sometimes there can be a mismatch between the embryonic hormones at specific development points in prenatal development. Or even our mother having an insensitivity to certain hormones, or even becoming immunized to certain antigens within the body that are needed during pregnancy. These things affect how a fetus may develop. These things can and do lead to physical changes in prenatal brain development, and there have been studies to show that there are genuine physical differences in a transsexual/transgender persons brain before any cross-sex hormones are taken. Which goes to show that the whole 'gender' thing may be more physical than mental. The biggest thing is the fact that the genitals and brain form at 2 separate points during pregnancy, and sometimes there is a misalignment between both.


https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/


http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704

So as you can see, it is not as straight forward as you might think. And this is the reason why Doctors no longer try to treat the minds of transsexual individuals, but rather treat the body. Back when they used to treat the mind, and I use the term loosely. They used such things as lobotomy's, shock therapy, psychiatric drugs and institutionalizing people. A lot of the treatments often resulted in brain damage, and even in the worst case scenarios, death.

The problem here is that you can not treat the mind, if the mind is physically different in the first place. As I have shown above, genuine research has been going on in regards to the brains for male, female, and transsexual brains.

There are also other things throughout history also, things that show the human race used to be much more knowledgeable and accepting on the whole 'gender' thing too. Such as in Ancient Greece, where some gods where considered to be both male and female, and some even as intersex or hermaphrodites.

Take Hermaphroditus for example:
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/H/Hermaphroditus.html

This is also a good article to read:

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

I'm not ignoring any of that. That's why I said "physiology". See? Right here:

Gender is the physiology. It's simplistic to say that it's the genitalia, but I think overall physiology is closer to the truth.

So... yea, what you said doesn't actually undermine anything I wrote.

 

[Danoff]

Nope;

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/gender

Yup. Definition number 1.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Here's my opinion:

There are two sexes, biologically speaking (Male and Female). Has been this way from the beginning of time for humans and all animals alike. I do also believe that there are instances biologically in which a person can be born with both reproductive parts, thereby making them a transgender (is this the right term?).

Gender is a slightly different debate as gender refers to what someone identifies as socially. While I think most people align their gender roles with their natural born sex; there are also some who become very confused at some point thus why we see the crossover of boys wanting to be girls and vice versa.

 

[huskeR32]

I'm not being dismissive, leave it to you to jump down my throat lol.

You reduced a question with an entire range of answers to "do you have a penis, y/n?" That's just about as dismissive as one could possibly be.

 

[Ialyrn]

I'm not ignoring any of that. That's why I said "physiology". See? Right here:

But then you go on to drop this spiel:

it's wrong for Kaitlyn Jenner to be a man and look and act like he does right now, there's no reason for him to redefine as a female. It's implicitly bigoted to insist that you should be called a girl when you "identify" as a girl but are a guy.

Which is why I made the post I did.

 

[squadops]

I'm not sure it has to do with scientific data @lalyrn, definitions are what they are right? Why should it matter at all what someone might call themselves? I know I don't care, call yourself a clingon aphrodite for all I care. If the reason is all about judgement then I simply say people should take more time looking in the mirror and less time out the window.

 

[JKgo]

I always get the ladies

...Well, that remains to be seen.

Personally, I'm firmly in the camp of "if you feel comfortable this way, then it's all good" but... it's not as easy as that, now is it.

I've seen lots of folks squirm whenever such a topic is introduced in conversations. Lots of older, more conservative-minded folks, usually.

Even in biology things aren't as clear cut as it seemed like before. I won't lie, some people might be irked by all the acronyms that have popped out all over the place so suddenly.

 

[huskeR32]

While I think most people align their gender roles with their natural born sex; there are also some who become very confused at some point thus why we see the crossover of boys wanting to be girls and vice versa.

Why must someone be confused if they don't identify with the gender that society generally associates with their sex?

 

[Danoff]

But then you go on to drop this spiel:


Which is why I made the post I did.

Full quote:

In short, unless you adopt the notion that it's wrong for Kaitlyn Jenner to be a man and look and act like he does right now, there's no reason for him to redefine as a female. It's implicitly bigoted to insist that you should be called a girl when you "identify" as a girl but are a guy.

The part you lopped off is actually pretty important (oh the irony).


Edit:

You shouldn't have to redefine your gender just because you want to look or act a certain way. There's nothing wrong with men and women looking or acting however they want. No need to explain it with a false gender association.

 

[niky]

You either have a dingle dangle or you don't, isn't it a simple case of biology?

Having once put together a slideshow (pre-PowerPoint) for a medical lecture on hermaphroditism, genetic sexual disorders, and atypical genitalia, with dozens of photographs, illustrations and... errh... dozens more photographs...

uh... no.

And that's before you consider the fact that the clitoris on every single woman in the world is actually a vestigial penis.

 

[PureAlpha1206]

Why must someone be confused if they don't identify with the gender that society generally associates with their sex?

It's not natural biologically. They may not always be confused, I'll give you that, but there has to be some sort of chemical or hormonal imbalance in order for the transversal across gender identification to occur.

 

[squadops]

I know all that @niky, well not that part about you putting it together but still. Why on earth would you call any of it a disorder? Seems lame if you ask me.

 

[huskeR32]

but there has to be some sort of chemical or hormonal imbalance in order for the transversal across gender identification to occur.

If gender is an entirely social construct, then I don't see how chemical/hormonal factors come into play at all.