Transition from Gran Turismo to real life, things you need to be aware of. (Updated poll 7/27!)

  • Thread starter sk8er913
  • 184 comments
  • 12,040 views

Does this threads OP have insightful and useful information for beginners in real life motorsport?

  • Yes, it is helpful.

    Votes: 13 76.5%
  • It does, but it could be better. (please tell me how I can improve it)

    Votes: 2 11.8%
  • No, it is not helpful.

    Votes: 2 11.8%

  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .

1241Penguin

Diamond Member
Premium
5,808
Canada
Canada
Here's one of my all time favorite videos of Gan-San running the NSX Type R at the Nordschleife. An example of Heel-toe mastery. And note the sound and noticeable rumbling when he drives over the curbs.
I dunno, I've always preferred Nakaya's footwork :sly::


You try to do that in GT and it'll throw you into neutral.

Also note: power-shifting. Can't do that in GT...
 

VBR

Meme Dissident in Exile...
Premium
7,560
England
London
The kerb rumble effect in GT6 & all other GT games, is severely over exaggerated. In real life, you feel very little through the wheel when going over kerbs, you feel most of it through your body (seat of pants). When I was on my track day, I deliberately ran over as many kerbs as I could to see what I felt, & to my surprise it was hardly nothing.

The weight of the wheel in general in GT6 is way too light, even in the the certain cars it is nowhere near what I experienced at the track in 2 race cars without power steering.

GT needs to have separate controls for wheel weight, & the road/kerb surface rumble effects, then we could set them up to our own preference.


👍
 

HKS racer

(Banned)
4,802
VBR
The kerb rumble effect in GT6 & all other GT games, is severely over exaggerated. In real life, you feel very little through the wheel when going over kerbs
Depends which cars and setup. Judging from faliures in last F1 weekend they do feel kerbs A LOT, expecially when bollards are too high.
VBR
you feel most of it through your body (seat of pants).
You can simulate that effect but you need a motion rig wich is quite expensive.
 

VBR

Meme Dissident in Exile...
Premium
7,560
England
London
Depends which cars and setup. Judging from faliures in last F1 weekend they do feel kerbs A LOT, expecially when bollards are too high.

They feel them through the car though, not through the wheel, which was my point.
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
VBR
The kerb rumble effect in GT6 & all other GT games, is severely over exaggerated. In real life, you feel very little through the wheel when going over kerbs, you feel most of it through your body (seat of pants). When I was on my track day, I deliberately ran over as many kerbs as I could to see what I felt, & to my surprise it was hardly nothing.

The weight of the wheel in general in GT6 is way too light, even in the the certain cars it is nowhere near what I experienced at the track in 2 race cars without power steering.

GT needs to have separate controls for wheel weight, & the road/kerb surface rumble effects, then we could set them up to our own preference.


👍
Depends which cars and setup. Judging from faliures in last F1 weekend they do feel kerbs A LOT, expecially when bollards are too high.
You can simulate that effect but you need a motion rig wich is quite expensive.
As I said before it has a lot to do with set up (car, maybe wheel too). With some set ups curbs are violent, and with others they are very smooth.

Also, With the set up (wheel etc) that Im using the vibrations go through my whole body. I can barely tell that they originate from the wheel.
 

HKS racer

(Banned)
4,802
VBR
They feel them through the car though, not through the wheel, which was my point.
Of course they feel through the car. But for a domestic sim racing market without motion rigs simulators FFB through the wheel is better than nothing.

If you want to properly simulate real life you need something like this:

6718432715_b48c9093b8_o.jpg


and still it may not be 100% accurate.
 

VBR

Meme Dissident in Exile...
Premium
7,560
England
London
As I said before it has a lot to do with set up (car, maybe wheel too). With some set ups curbs are violent, and with others they are very smooth.

Also, With the set up (wheel etc) that Im using the vibrations go through my whole body. I can barely tell that they originate from the wheel.

As I said before, drivers do not feel much vibration through the steering wheel, they feel it through the rest of their body. F1 drivers in particular feel them through their butt as they're strapped in very tight to a carbon fibre seat right near the ground. You'll hear commentators like Coulthard mention what they feel when the car bottoms out or if they go over a kerb, he never mentions them feeling anything through the wheel though.

It's a good effect to have in a sim as it compensates for the missing Seat Of Pants feel you get in real life, but it's not entirely realistic.
 
3,068
Finland
Finland
thematic604
VBR
As I said before, drivers do not feel much vibration through the steering wheel, they feel it through the rest of their body.
Usually, mostly by design. Mika Salo commented on some cars he drove - granted, it's television - that the steering was rough on the hands over kerbs.
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
Of course they feel through the car. But for a domestic sim racing market without motion rigs simulators FFB through the wheel is better than nothing.

If you want to properly simulate real life you need something like this:

6718432715_b48c9093b8_o.jpg


and still it may not be 100% accurate.
Looks like it belongs on the moon. :lol:
 
1,228
Greece
Patra
Rotorist
VBR
The kerb rumble effect in GT6 & all other GT games, is severely over exaggerated. In real life, you feel very little through the wheel when going over kerbs, you feel most of it through your body (seat of pants). When I was on my track day, I deliberately ran over as many kerbs as I could to see what I felt, & to my surprise it was hardly nothing.

The weight of the wheel in general in GT6 is way too light, even in the the certain cars it is nowhere near what I experienced at the track in 2 race cars without power steering.

GT needs to have separate controls for wheel weight, & the road/kerb surface rumble effects, then we could set them up to our own preference.


👍
I thought the 2 seperate settings in GT6 were added just for this. One for weight-resistance in steering and the other for dumping-reaction of car to anomalies in pavement, curbs, etc. And imo they work pretty nice.
 
66
Brazil
PR, Curitiba
Killer47_BR
Can someone help me with this one?

I was driving my car along the road when I expected a small turn to the right, so I decided to open it to make the turn easier. But there was a car to my right. So, what I did! I used the car next to me (which don't let me pass in front) like wall and I hit it as I do in GT. It was suposed to bump me a little bit and keep me along the turn, but no! The driver was saying very loud "WHAT F. ARE YOU DOING YOU CRAZY B." I dind't understand and realized that my card had a big scratch.

Does someone tried to make the same?
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
Can someone help me with this one?

I was driving my car along the road when I expected a small turn to the right, so I decided to open it to make the turn easier. But there was a car to my right. So, what I did! I used the car next to me (which don't let me pass in front) like wall and I hit it as I do in GT. It was suposed to bump me a little bit and keep me along the turn, but no! The driver was saying very loud "WHAT F. ARE YOU DOING YOU CRAZY B." I dind't understand and realized that my card had a big scratch.

Does someone tried to make the same?
I don't understand. :P
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
Updated:

- added page 5 discussion about clutches into OP under severe labeled as "Very poor clutch simulation."

- added "Air density changes with tempurature" to the well done list.

Dedicated thread is here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/air-density-from-temp-is-calculated-in-gt6.332606/
This part is premature and needs further testing. There is also a volumetric throttle effect that occurs with higher density (colder air) so we don't know if the higher speeds that result from the one test that was done actually conform to the real world.
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
8/3/15
I raced tonight again, and I'm looking back at the poll results for "Are you happy with the accuracy of GT6 physics." And only 72.2% of you voted yes. That's not a true representative of how good this games physics really are. People call it a "simcade." :lol: but it is only a simcade on a DS3. If you get a high quality wheel from either Logitech or Thrustmaster or whatever it feels great! I now have about 110 minutes of track time, which admittedly doesn't sound like much. But every time I do a session, the lines between virtual and reality are becoming more and more blurry. The only real difference in the game and the real thing is that in the game you use your arms to feel how it's handling through the steering wheel, but in real life that is less important. This game is incredible, and it produces great drivers. I know @kart.no.38 would agree with that, he wins pretty much every race he goes too. :cheers:


When I originally designed this thread I was unhappy with the accuracy of this thread, and I wanted to point out things that it gets wrong so that new drivers could use the information to avoid those pesky rookie mistakes. tonight though, it's completely different. Gran Turismo can improve it's physics, because it obviously have it's flaws. They are way too forgiving, small mistakes in real life seem cost a lot more time than in GT. GT6 has a great physics engine and it is a great tool to improve real life driving skills.
 
11,936
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
GT6 has a great physics engine and it is a great tool to improve real life driving skills.

It's fine, it teaches you about driving lines and being smooth. It doesn't teach you much about controlling the weight shift of your car and modulating slip angles mid-corner, which is pretty important if you want to be seriously fast.

I think GT does fine taking people from beginner to amateur, say for a track day or something. But if you want to get beyond that then GT isn't really that helpful. If you're actually going to be racing, there are other things that you can learn from sims that you can't practise in GT because they're either just not there or they're wrong.
 

Stylel_Code

(Banned)
344
France
France
stylel-soheib
I have a question for wheel users who complain about the game not providing enough information from the road like bumps etc..
Have you tried the latest GTAc event with the lmp nissan?
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
I have a question for wheel users who complain about the game not providing enough information from the road like bumps etc..
Have you tried the latest GTAc event with the lmp nissan?
That was different than most cars. Maybe its the track? Nurburgring is bumpy too.

It's fine, it teaches you about driving lines and being smooth. It doesn't teach you much about controlling the weight shift of your car and modulating slip angles mid-corner, which is pretty important if you want to be seriously fast.

I think GT does fine taking people from beginner to amateur, say for a track day or something. But if you want to get beyond that then GT isn't really that helpful. If you're actually going to be racing, there are other things that you can learn from sims that you can't practise in GT because they're either just not there or they're wrong.

I heard that the kart I drive has a closed diff, so I'm not sure if slip angles matter. And I did learn some load shifting from GT. I used load shift to initate drifts in GT.
 
Last edited:

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
I heard that the kart I drive has a closed diff, so I'm not sure if slip angles matter. And I did learn some load shifting from GT. I used load shift to initate drifts in GT.
Karts don't have differentials...or at least none of the karts I'm aware of do. Slip angles are not really related to differentials anyway and karts definitely have slip angles at the limit.
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
Karts don't have differentials...or at least none of the karts I'm aware of do. Slip angles are not really related to differentials anyway and karts definitely have slip angles at the limit.
Noob question, whats a slip angle then?
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
Simply put it's the difference between the direction tires are heading vs. the direction tires are pointing. In a straight line it's obviously zero. When cornering, the more you are sliding or drifting, the more of an angle between the direction the tires are heading and the direction they are pointing.

http://technicalf1explained.blogspot.ca/2012/10/f1-tirespart-2.html
So understeer and oversteer? I said GT did it wrong twice. :D I thought it was the difference between the speed of the left side and right side for some reason.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
So understeer and oversteer? I said GT did it wrong twice. :D I thought it was the difference between the speed of the left side and right side for some reason.
One of the major goals of a tire model in any racing sim is simulating tire/car behaviour around the ideal slip angle. Games are often called arcade or simcade when you can maintain unusual slip angles while cornering and still maintain ideal forward momentum and pay no penalty in terms of tire heat and wear. Every car/tire combination has an ideal slip angle that maximizes cornering speed for a given set of conditions in real life and sims try hard to reproduce that in the game. What happens in the game when that optimum slip angle is exceeded or not met, goes a long way towards how sim racers evaluate a game's physics.
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
One of the major goals of a tire model in any racing sim is simulating tire/car behaviour around the ideal slip angle. Games are often called arcade or simcade when you can maintain unusual slip angles while cornering and still maintain ideal forward momentum and pay no penalty in terms of tire heat and wear. Every car/tire combination has an ideal slip angle that maximizes cornering speed for a given set of conditions in real life and sims try hard to reproduce that in the game. What happens in the game when that optimum slip angle is exceeded or not met, goes a long way towards how sim racers evaluate a game's physics.
I'm finding it quite difficult to find the optimal angle in real life last month I was probably 15 degrees too steep and I think I might've been a little shallow this time for the short length of the race. But at the last lap I think I was the fastest on track.
 
11,936
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
I heard that the kart I drive has a closed diff, so I'm not sure if slip angles matter.

And I did learn some load shifting from GT. I used load shift to initate drifts in GT.

Your kart almost certainly has a solid axle. It's not a closed diff, it's no diff at all.

Slip angle is about the angle the tyre is from the direction it's going, and is very important for how much grip you get from a tyre.

Watch this from about 15 minutes or so. (I had another video in mind but I can't find it, maybe it'll come to me later.)


See how when he lifts off, the nose tucks in? All good sports cars do that to some extent, and it's especially pronounced in mid and rear engined cars. GT doesn't really do it unless you tune specifically for it, with tunes that probably don't match real world numbers, and even then it's iffy whether you get the effect you're looking for.

Ditto when he stomps the throttle and gets understeer. If you're in a car without enough power to spin the wheels up, or you're just careful with your right foot, that's what happens. The back squats under the power and pushes you out of the corner.

This is really important, because it means that you can control how the car turns in the corner by using the accelerator, even when your steering wheel may not be responding. You can control how the grip is proportioned between front and rear tyres to get the most out of what you need at any given situation.


Maybe I'm braking into a corner, and someone dives down the outside of me. I now need to turn tighter to give room on the outside, but I was already at the limit of grip for the normal racing line I was planning on taking. I brake a little bit extra as I'm turning to keep the weight on the front wheels. This means the back has less grip than usual, and starts to come around.

I'm scrubbing more speed by going sideways and I'm pointing the car tighter around the corner which is exactly what I wanted, I've made room for the other guy. But my back end is sliding out and I'm going to lose it. If I countersteer, I'll go out wide again and hit the other guy who is still beside me. Instead I squeeze the throttle back on and trade some of that front grip I no longer need (I've already got my car pointing more or less where I want to go) for some rear grip. The back stops sliding, and I power out of the corner side by side with my opponent having kept both of us safe to keep racing.


Outside of a few cars, GT simulates this sort of behaviour only in very limited ways. If you commit to a corner at the limit of grip, you're pretty much stuck to your line whether you like it or not. You can't fluff around with getting a bit sideways mid corner to scrub some speed, or flooring it early to get extra drive because you're already done turning. Weight shift exists in GT, but it's very, very limited compared to what a real sports car will let you do.

Driving an MX5 in game is like driving a brick compared to my real MX5 on a track. It just doesn't have the mobility and friskiness that makes it such a good little sports car. That goes for a lot of the great sports cars in the game, and a lot of the race cars too.

This is bread and butter for racing drivers, it's what makes it a skill. If all it took was to memorise the best line around a track and follow it, anyone could do it. In reality, you have to have a great feel for exactly how your car is moving with regard to the road, and you have to finesse your inputs to gently guide the car into doing what you want. It's an incredible feeling when you start to get it, and it makes driving into something much more akin to a jazz performance. Yeah, there's structure to what you're doing but you're making it all up as you go along to create that one amazing lap.
 
4,093
United States
California
Sk8er913
Your kart almost certainly has a solid axle. It's not a closed diff, it's no diff at all.

Slip angle is about the angle the tyre is from the direction it's going, and is very important for how much grip you get from a tyre.

Watch this from about 15 minutes or so. (I had another video in mind but I can't find it, maybe it'll come to me later.)


See how when he lifts off, the nose tucks in? All good sports cars do that to some extent, and it's especially pronounced in mid and rear engined cars. GT doesn't really do it unless you tune specifically for it, with tunes that probably don't match real world numbers, and even then it's iffy whether you get the effect you're looking for.

Ditto when he stomps the throttle and gets understeer. If you're in a car without enough power to spin the wheels up, or you're just careful with your right foot, that's what happens. The back squats under the power and pushes you out of the corner.

This is really important, because it means that you can control how the car turns in the corner by using the accelerator, even when your steering wheel may not be responding. You can control how the grip is proportioned between front and rear tyres to get the most out of what you need at any given situation.


Maybe I'm braking into a corner, and someone dives down the outside of me. I now need to turn tighter to give room on the outside, but I was already at the limit of grip for the normal racing line I was planning on taking. I brake a little bit extra as I'm turning to keep the weight on the front wheels. This means the back has less grip than usual, and starts to come around.

I'm scrubbing more speed by going sideways and I'm pointing the car tighter around the corner which is exactly what I wanted, I've made room for the other guy. But my back end is sliding out and I'm going to lose it. If I countersteer, I'll go out wide again and hit the other guy who is still beside me. Instead I squeeze the throttle back on and trade some of that front grip I no longer need (I've already got my car pointing more or less where I want to go) for some rear grip. The back stops sliding, and I power out of the corner side by side with my opponent having kept both of us safe to keep racing.


Outside of a few cars, GT simulates this sort of behaviour only in very limited ways. If you commit to a corner at the limit of grip, you're pretty much stuck to your line whether you like it or not. You can't fluff around with getting a bit sideways mid corner to scrub some speed, or flooring it early to get extra drive because you're already done turning. Weight shift exists in GT, but it's very, very limited compared to what a real sports car will let you do.

Driving an MX5 in game is like driving a brick compared to my real MX5 on a track. It just doesn't have the mobility and friskiness that makes it such a good little sports car. That goes for a lot of the great sports cars in the game, and a lot of the race cars too.

This is bread and butter for racing drivers, it's what makes it a skill. If all it took was to memorise the best line around a track and follow it, anyone could do it. In reality, you have to have a great feel for exactly how your car is moving with regard to the road, and you have to finesse your inputs to gently guide the car into doing what you want. It's an incredible feeling when you start to get it, and it makes driving into something much more akin to a jazz performance. Yeah, there's structure to what you're doing but you're making it all up as you go along to create that one amazing lap.
I think in GT6 if you would've gotten sideways and hit the throttle that it would just spin faster. :D
 
3,068
Finland
Finland
thematic604
I think in GT6 if you would've gotten sideways and hit the throttle that it would just spin faster. :D
On the video the driver says (about oversteer) to add "a little bit of power", this is pretty much how it's in the game.
 
4,466
Bulgaria
Bulgaria
I don't think Live For Speed models chassis flex, so the sway bars will be (unrealistically) 100% efficient.
If you think that sway bars in LFS are unrealistically efficient here is how unrealistically inefficient sway bars are in GT6 compared to real life:
I played a little GT6 last night. And after being in the real world Spec Miata over the last three weeks, GT6 reminded me of the frustrations that I have with tuning in the game. At MIS this past weekend, in my first practice run, my car was very loose mid-corner. I was able to move the rear sway bar mount from the hardest position to the medium position and it totally calmed the car down to a slightly loose, but drive-able state.

Back to GT6, I was racing a Miata at Laguna Seca. The car was tight so I dropped the front bar and increased the rear and very little happened. I went to minimum front bar and maximum rear bar and again, very little happened. Tuning should not be such a guessing game to find the one setting that is keeping the car from handling well. It should be more intuitive than it is. It just left me thinking, not "The Real Driving Simulator" but instead, "The Unrealistic Driving Simulator." :grumpy:
 
258
If you think that sway bars in LFS are unrealistically efficient here is how unrealistically inefficient sway bars are in GT6 compared to real life:

A Miata, as a convertible, I assume has added bracing to stiffen the chassis for track use.