Transmissions in GT6 (Discussion Question)

[tomkat492]

I haven't really seen anything on GTP about this, plus it's relevant so I figured it couldn't hurt to bring up. (If it needs to be moved/deleted, feel free.)

On-topic: Am I the only one who doesn't like how transmissions are represented in GT5? Nothing transmission/drivetrain/driveline wise affects the PP of vehicles and I'm not a big fan of that at all. Maybe it's because I race lower classes or something, I dunno, but it seems strange to see cars that are otherwise "street" be equipped with these racing-built transmissions. Not to mention that perfectly tuned ratios with straight cut gears does WAY more for the performance of a vehicle than a K&N air filter does, but Gran Turismo doesn't seem to agree with me.

Now I'm sure some people will be like, "Well you don't have to run it." Which I don't. I honestly don't. Am I slower because of it? Of course. But that doesn't make it any less strange that it doesn't "count" for anything. I could just be whining, but I can't be the only one in this boat, right? Especially since some cars have fantastic transmissions in stock form, but that's just an aspect that's almost guaranteed to be lost.

Either way, I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts.

 

[Tornado]

It'd be nice if more than, like, 6 of the cars with automatic transmissions actually drove like they had automatic transmissions.

 

[sepulturite]

I haven't really seen anything on GTP about this, plus it's relevant so I figured it couldn't hurt to bring up. (If it needs to be moved/deleted, feel free.)

On-topic: Am I the only one who doesn't like how transmissions are represented in GT5? Nothing transmission/drivetrain/driveline wise affects the PP of vehicles and I'm not a big fan of that at all. Maybe it's because I race lower classes or something, I dunno, but it seems strange to see cars that are otherwise "street" be equipped with these racing-built transmissions. Not to mention that perfectly tuned ratios with straight cut gears does WAY more for the performance of a vehicle than a K&N air filter does, but Gran Turismo doesn't seem to agree with me.

Now I'm sure some people will be like, "Well you don't have to run it." Which I don't. I honestly don't. Am I slower because of it? Of course. But that doesn't make it any less strange that it doesn't "count" for anything. I could just be whining, but I can't be the only one in this boat, right? Especially since some cars have fantastic transmissions in stock form, but that's just an aspect that's almost guaranteed to be lost.

Either way, I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts.

Yeh I find it strange because transmission/ drivetrain/ driveline should affect the pp. It used to in the early days of gt5, before an update. But I think it should be brought back in gt6 because those upgraded parts make a big difference.

 

[ironman44321]

It'd be nice if more than, like, 6 of the cars with automatic transmissions actually drove like they had automatic transmissions.

This. I always thought it was weird that even then you use an auto the car still doesn't shift until redline even if you don't have your foot down. Not that I think it will change...but I'd be pleased if it did.

 

[smskeeter23]

Ya automatics are a huge issue in the way they "work" and I agree it should be a pp multiplier of sorts. Honestly ANYTHING above and beyond totally bare bones showroom stock should add pp imo.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I too would like to see the drivetrain upgrades reflected in PP calculations. I'd also like the option in a "tuning prohibited" lobby to allow a close ratio transmission on any car.

 

[f40]

They need to fix the shuffle race PP as well. Various old muscle cars have such a low top speed, they just guarantee last place.

 

[tomkat492]

Yeah, the RX-8 with the 4-speed still just feels like it has longer/less gears. Same with the GNX. I haven't driven any others to test.

But I definitely agree on tuning locking. The fact that you can lock tires is nice, but it'd be nice to see more options than that. Especially at those odd ranges where people want to start pulling out race cars.

 

[Steph290]

I believe drive-train upgrades such as the dual-clutch and carbon drive-shaft should be reflected as perhaps 1-3pp; there IS a noticeable increase in acceleration with those two items. However, I don't agree with transmission and flywheels being reflected. My reasoning being that their benefits and detriments balance out. If you go for a close ratio transmission, you get more torque at the wheels but a lower top speed, while a wider ratio gives you the opposite affect. Knowing how to customize a transmission well will get you what you need on a given track.

Lighter flywheels allow the car to rev more easily, but for clutch pedal users it also causes the RPMs to drop faster, meaning that if you don't keep on the throttle when shifting you would fall out of the power band easily. Of course, just a fraction of racers use the clutch so that factor is negligible. Either way, acceleration is not dependent only on those two parts, but rather how they are used.

 

[Tornado]

Close ratio transmission should also be replaced with an adjustable final drive, while we're at it; since the former tends to be useless on a lot of cars and the latter could replicate the former and allow adjustability without losing the original character of the tranny.

This. I always thought it was weird that even then you use an auto the car still doesn't shift until redline even if you don't have your foot down. Not that I think it will change...but I'd be pleased if it did.

Well, I certainly don't expect them to try and replicate transmission programming in the game; but modelling the torque converter for all cars with such slushboxes doesn't seem like too much to ask when they already have a (small) handful of cars that do have it implemented somewhat properly.

 

[tomkat492]

I believe drive-train upgrades such as the dual-clutch and carbon drive-shaft should be reflected as perhaps 1-3pp; there IS a noticeable increase in acceleration with those two items. However, I don't agree with transmission and flywheels being reflected. My reasoning being that their benefits and detriments balance out. If you go for a close ratio transmission, you get more torque at the wheels but a lower top speed, while a wider ratio gives you the opposite affect. Knowing how to customize a transmission well will get you what you need on a given track.

Lighter flywheels allow the car to rev more easily, but for clutch pedal users it also causes the RPMs to drop faster, meaning that if you don't keep on the throttle when shifting you would fall out of the power band easily. Of course, just a fraction of racers use the clutch so that factor is negligible. Either way, acceleration is not dependent only on those two parts, but rather how they are used.

Suspension not affecting PP is one thing. It's a potential upgrade, not a guaranteed one. Transmission however should be. Maybe not for the close-ratio (like Tornado said, it should just be adjustable FD), but the sequential six-speed is an upgrade over stock AT LEAST 90% of the time, even without adjustments. I'm sorry, but that s*** should reflect.

 

[Steph290]

Suspension not affecting PP is one thing. It's a potential upgrade, not a guaranteed one. Transmission however should be. Maybe not for the close-ratio (like Tornado said, it should just be adjustable FD), but the sequential six-speed is an upgrade over stock AT LEAST 90% of the time, even without adjustments. I'm sorry, but that s*** should reflect.

So if you install a fully-customizable and make the gearing identical to the stock(which you can) or worse resulting in a slower vehicle, it should still show up as an increase in performance points?

 

[Alfasudson]

@

I haven't really seen anything on GTP about this, plus it's relevant so I figured it couldn't hurt to bring up. (If it needs to be moved/deleted, feel free.)

On-topic: Am I the only one who doesn't like how transmissions are represented in GT5? Nothing transmission/drivetrain/driveline wise affects the PP of vehicles and I'm not a big fan of that at all. Maybe it's because I race lower classes or something, I dunno, but it seems strange to see cars that are otherwise "street" be equipped with these racing-built transmissions. Not to mention that perfectly tuned ratios with straight cut gears does WAY more for the performance of a vehicle than a K&N air filter does, but Gran Turismo doesn't seem to agree with me.

Now I'm sure some people will be like, "Well you don't have to run it." Which I don't. I honestly don't. Am I slower because of it? Of course. But that doesn't make it any less strange that it doesn't "count" for anything. I could just be whining, but I can't be the only one in this boat, right? Especially since some cars have fantastic transmissions in stock form, but that's just an aspect that's almost guaranteed to be lost.

Either way, I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts.

I totally agree with you there. Don't get me wrong, I love this game, always have, it's the sole reason I bought a PS1 all those years ago & all of the GT's til this day. But little things like you describe re the transmission are the details that really make it a sim or don't. You either have a tuning engine or not imo, not a half arsed one. I mean for all the tuning you CAN do, you can't even upgrade the brakes in GT5 ? The physics of the cars it has to be said is very very good, that has been a constant & that is GT6s party piece at the end of the day. The one thing though that bugs me the most & I've said it thousands of times over is the engine sounds, that is a fundamental thing !

 

[vk56dehan]

So if you install a fully-customizable and make the gearing identical to the stock(which you can) or worse resulting in a slower vehicle, it should still show up as an increase in performance points?

The answer should be "no" to you question. Really the tranny shouldn't have an affect on pp because it doesn't give you an advantage in every aspect. You give some and take some depending on how its geared....whether it be for top speed or acceleration. I believe (correct me if im wrong...not a mech)the main purpose of a race trans (straight cut gears) is too increase strength and reliability of the splines. Helical gears are angled to reduce gear meshing(annoying whine) in your standard vehicle but has a reduction in strength due to the way the forces are applied....hard abuse on a stock tranny will result in failure much sooner than with a race trans as many I'm sure have experienced. Not too mention with increase of strength comes the ability to induce more force(added HP)

 

[andrewyhy]

I just hope that the transmission whine on full customizable transmission can be a bit more quiet on street cars, it's kind of annoying to hear that whine over the engine/exhaust sound.

EDIT: or give us an option to choose from full customizable racing transmission or street car transmissions with customizable gear ratios.

 

[vk56dehan]

I just hope that the transmission whine on full customizable transmission can be a bit more quiet on street cars, it's kind of annoying to hear that whine over the engine/exhaust sound.

EDIT: or give us an option to choose from full customizable racing transmission or street car transmissions with customizable gear ratios.

They are pretty noisy in reality...hints why manufacturers use helical gears. They only difference you would find between a race car and a street car with a race trans is the fact that the street car still has sound deadening insulation. But, weight reduction is one of the most important upgrades to a track car...guess what one of the things that comes out is?

 

[Steph290]

The answer should be "no" to you question. Really the tranny shouldn't have an affect on pp because it doesn't give you an advantage in every aspect. You give some and take some depending on how its geared....whether it be for top speed or acceleration. I believe (correct me if im wrong...not a mech)the main purpose of a race trans (straight cut gears) is too increase strength and reliability of the splines. Helical gears are angled to reduce gear meshing(annoying whine) in your standard vehicle but has a reduction in strength due to the way the forces are applied....hard abuse on a stock tranny will result in failure much sooner than with a race trans as many I'm sure have experienced.

Which was my point above, but seems like most most people believe it is advantage in every scenario. Again I say, the part doesn't determine the advantage, but rather how it is geared.

Not too mention with increase of strength comes the ability to induce more force(added HP)

Or PD could include an option to change the final gearing. Many people choose that option IRL, since it is too expensive of a job to change the transmission itself.

 

[tomkat492]

It's possible for it to be a disadvantage or even have no net gain, but let's be real: It's a videogame, it's always going to be an "upgrade". Plus in reality, they aren't just durability upgrades. Those things shift at a blisteringly higher speed than a standard H.

However, I'd be "happy" if I could lock them out. At the very least. That way everyone can have it their way.

Edit: I know by now I must sound bitter, but still. This is some real ****. And how often do people **** up their gearing to the point where it'd be worse than stock? Whichever way it's tuned, it's usually to some benefit over the stock unit. I dunno, just annoying to see 400PP cars with them. It offers no PP, but downforce does. I'm sorry, but at 400-450PP, a rear wing on my FF car is just hurting me.

 

[vk56dehan]

Which was my point above, but seems like most most people believe it is advantage in every scenario. Again I say, the part doesn't determine the advantage, but rather how it is geared.


Or PD could include an option to change the final gearing. Many people choose that option IRL, since it is too expensive of a job to change the transmission itself.

I skimmed the thread...my bad guy. To the second part, yes they could but that still doesnt change the type gear set which will inevitably result in premature failure if used regularly on the track. Now if your just wanting higher top speed or accel for road use and romping from time to time cool.

 

[tomkat492]

Idea! Make it's PP bonus be relative to the rest of the modifications on the car. For a car in the < 400 PP range, it should be quite a bit of PP to throw on. However for a 500 > it should be a lot closer to negligible. Especially since we're seeing racecars around that range.

 

[Steph290]

It's possible for it to be a disadvantage or even have no net gain, but let's be real: It's a videogame, it's always going to be an "upgrade". Plus in reality, they aren't just durability upgrades. Those things shift at a blisteringly higher speed than a standard H.

It is always going to be an "upgrade", yes in the fact that you are paying for the ability to better your car. It has the potential to give your car an advantage, but not at all times. Put a default fully custom transmission on a car on Sarthe, Tokyo, Nurb, or any track with over a mile of straight and I guarantee you'll be bouncing off of the redline in 6th getting overtaken before the finish. Most people raise the ratio a bit from default or just over what they believe their top speed would be. It is your choice whether to do it or not. In addition, it is the clutch that determines shift speed, the transmission determines how long or short your gearing is. Racing trans are usually mated with a dual or triple plate clutch which is why they shift faster IRL.

Why should most people be restricted for the few not willing to tune their transmission? You compare it to real life, well IRL weight, tires, & horsepower are restricted in races, but transmission tuning is all up to the team/drivers preference. I'm sorry dude, unless you really don't know or understand how to use gear ratios(which it sounds like), I don't see any justification for reflecting transmission tuning in the pp system. It's realistically fair game as it stands now.

 

[tomkat492]

Whoa man, insults aren't necessary. I dunno why that's always what it comes to on the internet. "You don't agree with me, so it's obvious that you just don't know what you're doing!"

I'm sorry it's a preference for me to leave the stock five-speed in my CRX. Or that maybe I'd want to just adjust the final drive.

I'm sorry I dislike the idea that a sequential transmission does not equate to an upgrade.

I am truly sorry that the metagame of Gran Turismo or whatever you'd call it actually requires race transmissions to be competitive.

I apologize for not realizing that real life racing leagues have Performance Points.

I'll just "learn how to gear ratio" to make you feel better about yourself.

 

[Steph290]

Whoa man, insults aren't necessary. I dunno why that's always what it comes to on the internet. "You don't agree with me, so it's obvious that you just don't know what you're doing!"

Never did I use an insult. I used "unless" & "it sounds" showing that I am unsure whether or not you fully understand it. Maybe I should've just asked if you knew or not. My fault.

I'm sorry it's a preference for me to leave the stock five-speed in my CRX. Or that maybe I'd want to just adjust the final drive.

I mentioned right above that PD should include the option to just change the final drive as "many people chose that option in IRL". Perhaps you just don't like the whine of the racing trans, I know it annoys me.

I'm sorry I dislike the idea that a sequential transmission does not equate to an upgrade.

I said it is an upgrade, but not in your sense, because depending on how it is tuned it may not always be advantageous.

I am truly sorry that the metagame of Gran Turismo or whatever you'd call it actually requires race transmissions to be competitive.

It does not require. I race with buds all the time with tuning locked or with stock transmissions while we are under our code of honor, and our races are always competitive.

I apologize for not realizing that real life racing leagues have Performance Points.

They do not, they have Regulations. Surprisingly there are no regulations on transmission tuning... hmm, I wonder why?

I'll just "learn how to gear ratio" to make you feel better about yourself.

Didn't know "gear ratio" was a verb? I need to figure out how to do that as well, if it really makes me feel better. I agree to disagree.

 

[sk8er913]

This. I always thought it was weird that even then you use an auto the car still doesn't shift until redline even if you don't have your foot down. Not that I think it will change...but I'd be pleased if it did.

My car has an automatic track mode... Shifts like GT.

 

[DCP]

I don't know how much of work would have to go into it, but when u decide to use any car and use auto, it should sound like a proper auto. This Ive never seen in any of the GTs, so I don't expect to see it in GT6, but it would be nice to have.

 

[Dave A]

They do not, they have Regulations. Surprisingly there are no regulations on transmission tuning... hmm, I wonder why?
Didn't know "gear ratio" was a verb? I need to figure out how to do that as well, if it really makes me feel better. I agree to disagree.

They may not have regulations on the ratios use but they do have some regulations on the type of gear box and drive train used. Many high performance gear boxes will reduce the ammount of power lost and increse the power at the wheels which even using ratios similar or the same as stock will prove a performance increase.

 

[Tornado]

So if you install a fully-customizable and make the gearing identical to the stock(which you can) or worse resulting in a slower vehicle, it should still show up as an increase in performance points?

Yes, because a racing transmission should also lower power loss and notably decrease weight over a stock unit. Especially if the original transmission was an automatic.

 

[Johnnypenso]

They are pretty noisy in reality...hints why manufacturers use helical gears. They only difference you would find between a race car and a street car with a race trans is the fact that the street car still has sound deadening insulation. But, weight reduction is one of the most important upgrades to a track car...guess what one of the things that comes out is?

They are noisy but they aren't annoying like it is in GT5 which is as much a "whistle" as it is a whining noise.

I'm sorry dude, unless you really don't know or understand how to use gear ratios(which it sounds like), I don't see any justification for reflecting transmission tuning in the pp system. It's realistically fair game as it stands now.

Do you know what the tranny flip is? Maybe you do but I'd guess the vast majority of GT5'ers do not unless they frequent the GTP Tuning Forum. If you don't know how to use the tranny flip, which is nowhere near intuitive, you can't get the most out of your transmission anyway.

 

[Steph290]

They may not have regulations on the ratios use but they do have some regulations on the type of gear box and drive train used. Many high performance gear boxes will reduce the ammount of power lost and increse the power at the wheels which even using ratios similar or the same as stock will prove a performance increase.

Yes, I was implying tuning ratios, as having a different physical part with an absolute advantage would defeat the point of having regulations within a racing league. Your last statement is true IRL, but are you so sure in GranTurismo? Have you ever drag raced two identical cars, one stock tranny and the other fully customizable with same gearing? I haven't checked myself, but I'm willing to bet they get the same time.

Yes, because a racing transmission should also lower power loss and notably decrease weight over a stock unit. Especially if the original transmission was an automatic.

"Should" is the key word here. Part of what you said I agree, but it's not just the automatic transmission gears that is the source of the weight problem, rather the torque converter and flexplate. Replacing those with a Dual plate clutch and light flywheel is where you really save the weight over a manual setup. But tell me, has any of your cars in GT gotten lighter from installing a fully customizable transmission?

Do you know what the tranny flip is? Maybe you do but I'd guess the vast majority of GT5'ers do not unless they frequent the GTP Tuning Forum. If you don't know how to use the tranny flip, which is nowhere near intuitive, you can't get the most out of your transmission anyway.

I'll be honest, I'm not familiar with the term tranny flip, but I understand gearing, and how it affects the power band according to my revs. I didn't always know, but I saw people "tuning their transmission" further than just increasing the top speed or final gear, so I took some time to read some tuning magazines/websites and understand the concept for myself. Now I take advantage (damn I'm using that word a lot) of the fact that I can tune the transmission how I want. You can even tune some of that whining noise out of your vehicle while at it. I've done it for my SRT-10, you would never know it's running a fully custom tranny by listening. Smokes 'em all within the 1/4.

 

[Dave A]

Yes, I was implying tuning ratios, as having a different physical part with an absolute advantage would defeat the point of having regulations within a racing league. Your last statement is true IRL, but are you so sure in Gran Turismo? Have you ever drag raced two identical cars, one stock tranny and the other fully customizable with same gearing? I haven't checked myself, but I'm willing to bet they get the same time.

I don't know if that's the case in GT or not or will or won't be the case in GT6 but that doesn't mean it should. If the only benefit in GT is changing the ratios of the gears then the performance benefit as you say is both positive and negative so the PP should remain the same in that instance. Should GT include the reduced power loss and weight reduction when you upgrade your transmission then the PP should increase also.