UAP/UFO - Any Closer to Explanation?

Discussion in 'Opinions & Current Events' started by Dotini, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    In my humble opinion, it is very hard to overstate how well connected Popular Mechanics is to industry and government military and intelligence sources over many decades, even generations. They have been consistent and effective at debunking conspiracy theory and quackery. But now the intriguing thing is they have been doing some of the breaking news in disclosure of anomalous phenomena. The old news is that the US government has been investigating the phenomena for 70 years, and that the phenomena is confirmed by the US Navy as real and unknown. The new news is that the US Army is set to benefit from technology recovered from the phenomena.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi...-mysterious-technology/?utm_source=reddit.com
    The Army and a UFO Group Are Investigating...Something

    What's going on here?

    [​IMG]
    By Kyle Mizokami
    Oct 17, 2019

    [​IMG]
    ULLSTEIN BILD DTL.GETTY IMAGES
    The U.S. Army and a prominent UFO research group are teaming up to investigate mysterious technology, but won’t come out and say where the tech comes from.

    To The Stars Academy of Arts and Science, the organization led by former Blink-182 member Tom DeLonge, will work with the Army to “characterize” technology under the organization’s control, and then use the tech to improve military vehicles. We have a lot of questions about this bizarre partnership, starting with the most important: Where did the technology come from?

    To The Stars, which released the infamous Navy-confirmed UFO videos, made the announcement today on its website, saying it has entered into a “Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) with the U.S. Army Combat Capabilities Development Command to advance TTSA’s materiel and technology innovations in order to develop enhanced capabilities for Army ground vehicles.”
     
  2. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    The US Army wants to verify TTSA’s UAP material claim.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...cademys-fantastic-ufo-mystery-material-claims

    Edit:
    [​IMG]
    TTSA
    A purported metamaterial that TTSA has acquired.'


     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  3. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    NEMESIS revealed.
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...e-capability-will-change-naval-combat-forever

    snippet
     
  4. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    The very old and well connected mainstream publication Popular Mechanics keeps digging on the Nimitz encounter.

    Snippets:

    [​IMG]
    An unofficial executive summary of the Nimitz encounter.
    WIKIMEDIA COMMONS

    -------------------------

    THE VISITORS

    Miles away from Voorhis, Day, Turner, and Weigelt, on the deck of the USS Nimitz aircraft carrier, Petty Officer Patrick “PJ” Hughes was unaware of the unidentified objects the Carrier group had been dealing with for the past several days. Instead, as an aviation technician, one of Hughes’ jobs was to secure the hard drive data recorders from the airborne early-warning aircraft, the E-2 Hawkeye.

    “We call them bricks, but they contain the software to run the airplane and they also record or can record a lot of the data that the air crew sees during the flight,” said Hughes in a YouTube interview.

    On November 14, as Hughes performed this routine task, he was unaware that the E-2 hard drives he was securing away in a classified safe had just come from the Hawkeye that Day first tried to use to intercept the mysterious UFOs.

    Shortly after securing the data bricks, Hughes said he was visited by his commanding officer and two unknown individuals. “They were not on the ship earlier, and I didn’t see them come on. I’m not sure how they got there,” said Hughes of the two men.

    According to Hughes, his commanding officer told him to turn over the recently secured harddrives. “We put them in the bags, he took them, then he and the two anonymous officers left,” Hughes said.

    Inside the Princeton, Voorhis had a similar encounter. “These two guys show up on a helicopter, which wasn’t uncommon, but shortly after they arrived, maybe 20 minutes, I was told by my chain of command to turn over all the data recordings for the AEGIS system,” says Voorhis.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a29771548/navy-ufo-witnesses-tell-truth/
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  5. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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  6. pstar

    pstar

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    Good to see there is some interest in this area on this forum.

    I have been following this quite closely since the nov 2017 news releases. However, there hasnt been any new footage release despite Luis Elizondo constantly preaching disclosure was close. Also, the material released for public viewing by AATIP is very vague. There are some big question marks about AATIP and TTSA.

    The recent news about the US Army investigating the metamaterials, doesn't sound genuine- as no military organisation would ever reveal anything like this to the public,

    As for Commander David Fravor, he presents the most solid evidence for the existence of ET. A highly trained observer and knowledgeable military official. His explanation of the whole Nimitz encounter (in particular the propulsion and maneuverability of the craft) and his personal opinion on Joe Rogan's podcast is the best proposition for an ET civilisation. The sad and annoying part is not many people in the scientific community are taking him seriously. Whereas some one like Dr Steven Greer MD has managed to get soo much attention with some ridiculous stories and really wild ideas with zero evidence.
     
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  7. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Here's my idea, at least on Area 51 in particular.

    Y'know what Las Vegas has other than casinos out the wazoo? Nellis AFB. Because a dry, flat area is a great place to build an airbase, not even joking. That's also why there's that air base in San Diego, that was formerly host to the real-world TOPGUN flight school. At any rate, Groom Lake (aka Area 51) seems to be in a very similar biome.

    Now, if you look at various prototype aircraft, or concepts, or even some produced planes, they can look very weird. There's this type of UFO dubbed "the black triangle," and what's a F-117 or B-2A look like from below? A black triangle. And meanwhile, especially during the Cold War, the military couldn't just say these weird flying objects, that virtually nobody's seen before, were top-secret planes undergoing testing. And the engineering that was being used in these planes was some real top-secret stuff! So I think they purposefully let rumors of aliens get out of control, and/or propagated the idea itself to some degree, like a disinfo campaign of some sort.
     
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  8. Dotini

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    The following article was published by the (modestly influential?) conservative mainstream Washington DC based Washington Examiner, formerly a daily newspaper since 2005, and now a website and weekly magazine, circulation 45,000.

    I agree with the author's estimation of the situation with the UAP phenomena.
    Here is what we know of Tom Rogan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Rogan

    OPINION

    The real reasons the US government is so secretive about UFOs
    by Tom Rogan
    | December 17, 2019 06:00 AM

    Two years ago Sunday, the New York Times broke the stunning story of a secret Pentagon program to study unidentified flying objects. That story led me to delve into this strange world. I've learned some interesting stuff about UFOs ("unidentified aerial phenomena," or "UAP," as the Pentagon refers to them) since then. But there's one problem.

    The United States government makes it very hard to figure out what and where UFO-related stuff is going on.

    Is that because the government is behind some great conspiracy to cover up the proof of alien visitation to Earth? Is it because the government is in cahoots with alien species to create human-alien hybrids?

    Perhaps, but I suspect not.

    What I believe is really going on here is that the few individuals in the U.S. government who know about this issue believe the phenomena might be a threat. And that they don't know how to deal with it.
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-the-us-government-is-so-secretive-about-ufos

    EDIT:
    Related bonus article from the redoubtable Popular Mechanics
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi...-blue-book-anniversary/?utm_source=reddit.com

    2nd Edit:

    Astonishing interview with pilot who's FLIR video made the front page of the NY Times. He says over and over again it violated the laws of physics as we know them.
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/tic-tac-ufo-video-q-and-a-with-navy-pilot-chad-underwood.html

    3rd edit:

    Excellent 3 part interview with Commander Fravor
    https://www.mysterywire.com/ufo/pil...chnology-i-saw-could-change-the-world-part-1/
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
  9. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Thanks for your participation in a thread most people won't dare to touch.

    You are probably aware of Vanity Fair magazine, the monthly for the educated elite, the smartest and most fashionable people. Here is part of what they have to say,


    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/05/please-god-let-it-be-aliens-and-not-trumps-space-force
     
  10. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne

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    I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in UFOs, either way "The Mystery of Dyatlov Pass" has got @Dotini written all over it! :)

    BBC: There Were Nine...
     
  11. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    I don't think this story fits in best in the modern UAP thread, although it has been mentioned in the UFO/paranormal literature from time to time. The Yeti hypothesis I thought was the most entertaining. (Yetis are sometimes defined as trans-dimensional aliens) My Uncle Fred and Cousin Karl have been on extensive Bigfoot hunts in the wilds of the Pacific Northwest, and had extensive contact with Ivan Sanderson, a world-famous cryptozoologist and ufologist of the day. All their searches came up empty, including Ivan's. But they did have a few very weird experiences to recall. Occasionally you hear of some small college professor who opines that Bigfoot could be real. But I really, really doubt it.

    Avalanche is by far the easiest explanation.
    https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/12/28/dyatlov-pass-incident/
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  12. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Sharing UFO/UAP documents, video and slides to the public "would cause exceptionally grave damage to the National Security of the United States".
    - US Navy ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence)
    Whether this true, false or just BS I'll leave up to you to decide. Some of this secret footage has already been released, and is seen in this thread.
    I have additional material on this subject if anyone is interested.

    Top-Secret UFO Files Could 'Gravely Damage' US National Security if Released, Navy Says

    By Brandon Specktor - Senior Writer 3 days ago

    The truth is out there… but you're still not allowed to see it.
    [​IMG]
    This infamous video of the USS Nimitz UFO encounter may not be the only one out there...
    (Image: © To The Stars Academy of Arts & Science)

    In November 2004, several U.S. Navy pilots stationed aboard the USS Nimitz encountered a Tic-Tac-shaped UFO darting and dashing over the Pacific Ocean in apparent defiance of the laws of physics. Navy officials dubbed the strange craft an "unidentified aerial phenomenon," but they have remained mum on what, exactly, that phenomenon could've been. Now, unsurprisingly to anyone who's ever considered making a hat out of tinfoil, the military has confirmed they know more than they're letting on.

    In response to a recent Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, a spokesperson from the Navy's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) confirmed that the agency possesses several top-secret documents and at least one classified video pertaining to the 2004 UFO encounter, Vice reported.

    According to the ONI spokesperson, these documents were either labeled "SECRET" or "TOP SECRET" by the agencies that provided them, and that sharing the information with the public "would cause exceptionally grave damage to the National Security of the United States."

    These top-secret files included several "briefing slides" about the incident, provided to the ONI by an unnamed agency. (Because ONI officials did not classify the slides personally, they are unable to declassify them, the spokesperson added).

    The ONI also admitted to possessing at least one video of unknown length, classified as "secret" by the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR). ONI didn't reveal whether this footage is the same 1-minute video that was leaked online in 2007 and widely released by The New York Times in 2017. However, in November 2019, several naval officers who witnessed the incident aboard the Nimitz told Popular Mechanics that they had seen a much longer video of the encounter that was between 8 and 10 minutes long. These original recordings were promptly collected and erased by "unknown individuals" who arrived on the ship by helicopter shortly after the incident, one officer said.

    Luis Elizondo, a former Pentagon staffer who helped make the Navy video public, told Vice that "people should not be surprised by the revelation that other videos exist and at greater length."

    The FOIA request, submitted in October 2019 by an independent researcher, asked for access to any nonclassified records or portions of records regarding the 2004 UFO encounter. No additional documents were mentioned in the ONI's response besides the classified briefing and video.

    https://www.livescience.com/navy-confirms-secret-ufo-video.html
     
  13. baldgye

    baldgye Premium

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    This is my favourite blog
     
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  14. Dotini

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    For the thoughtful, the following blog is highly recommended reading. It's a great summary of what is openly acknowledged by the US government to date, plus the questions, alarms and threats.

    https://blog.usni.org/posts/2020/01/10/the-navy-and-the-uaps

    Navy
    The Navy and the UAPs
    By Kyle Mizokami | January 10, 2020

    AviationNavyUAP
    Kyle Mizokami
    Mr. Mizokami writes about national security and defense affairs for Popular Mechanics, The National Interest,and Foxtrot Alpha.  

    More From This Author

    One of the strangest mysteries of the modern U.S. Navy is a series of events that played out in 2004 and 2014–15, on each coast, involving what the Pentagon now calls “unexplained aerial phenomena” (UAP). In 2004 and 2014–15, Navy personnel flying carrier-based strike fighters and on surface warships spotted aircraft with flight and engineering characteristics currently considered impossible. The sightings are evidence that someone, somewhere has operationalized technology far beyond the apparent state of the art. The unknown craft, if not under the control of the U.S. government, might well represent a serious threat to American military superiority in a future conflict.

    The story first became public in December 2017, when The New York Times broke a story about UAPs and the Nimitz Strike Group. The USS Nimitz (CVN-68) and her escorts were doing workups in advance of their 2005 deployment. Retired Commander David Fravor, one of the aviator eyewitnesses, says the ships were approximately 60 miles off the “midpoint between San Diego and Ensenada, Mexico” on 14 November 2004. Along with the Nimitz was the guided-missile cruiser USS Princeton (CG-59) and several support ships.

    Fravor, at the time skipper of the Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 41 “Black Aces,” and Lieutenant Commander Jim Slaight were flying an air-defense training mission from the Nimitz, with Marines from the VMFA-232 “Red Devils” set to play the bad guys. The Princeton was to coordinate the exercise.

    Unbeknownst to Fravor, the exercise was about to take a turn. During the previous two weeks, radar operators on the Princeton had tracked unknown aircraft flying highly unusual maneuvers. The craft would descend from 80,000 feet, drop straight down to 20,000 feet, loiter for three to four hours, and go straight back to 80,000 feet again. As many as a dozen of these craft were sighted on the cruiser’s SPY-1 radar at a time. The Nimitz’s E-2 Hawkeye airborne early warning and control aircraft could also see the craft.

    Once airborne, Fravor received a request from Princeton Control to specify his aircraft loadout. He replied that his F/A-18F was equipped with a CATM-9 captive-carry training missile. The Princeton informed him the air-defense exercise was canceled in favor of a “real-world vector.” The controller explained the situation with the sightings and tasked Fravor’s flight of two F/A-18Fs to investigate the mysterious craft.

    The strike fighters flew west until Princeton Control declared “merge plot”—meaning the radar returns of the objects were blurred with returns from the Super Hornets. The Navy flight crews looked down to the right and noticed a cross-shaped object, approximately the size of a Boeing 737, just under the surface of the water with waves breaking above it. Just above the underwater object was a white, oval-shaped object approximately 40 feet long—dubbed “the Tic-Tac” after the breath mint. All four naval aviators observed the objects with their own eyes, unaided. The aircraft did not resemble a helicopter nor did the water show any sign of rotor downwash.

    Fravor descended to get a better look while his wingman continued flying at altitude. As Fravor’s altitude decreased, the Tic-Tac began rising to meet him. Fravor and the object flew closed—until the object abruptly seemed to disappear. The 737-sized object in the water also disappeared.

    As the two F/A-18Fs left the area, Princeton Control radioed that the Tic-Tac had reappeared—at the strike fighters’ original rendezvous point (before they were retasked to investigate the object). By Fravor’s estimate, the object had traveled 60 miles in 30–40 seconds, which works out to roughly 7,200 miles an hour. The Princeton did not track the Tic-Tac’s rather; rather, the object simply seemed to reappear on the cruiser’s SPY-1 radar. The fighter crews flew back to the rendezvous point but did not observe the object, which also did not appear on their radar.

    A third F/A-18F took off immediately after Fravor’s flight landed. The plane’s weapon system officer (WSO) detected the Tic-Tac on radar but immediately encountered antiradar jamming, presumably emitted by the object. The airplane’s other sensors had slewed to target, however, and the WSO was able to observe it and record video with the AN/ASQ-228 Advanced Targeting Forward Looking Infrared (ATFLIR) sensor and targeting pod. The video, released by the U.S. government, later was uploaded to YouTube by a UAP-investigation group. It shows an oblong-shaped object that holds in the center of the ATFLIR for several seconds before rapidly accelerating left and out of the camera’s field of view.

    In March 2019, The New York Times broke a second story about a series of UFO sightings—again by U.S. Navy personnel—this time, off the East Coast. The sightings took place from summer 2014 to March 2015 and involved Super Hornet air crews flying from the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71). Lieutenants Ryan Graves and Danny Aucoin of the VFA-111 “Red Rippers” spoke on the record to the Times about their UAP encounters. As with the Nimitz in 2004, the “TR” was engaged in a training workup in advance of a deployment to the Persian Gulf.

    Graves describes the UAPs he and the other pilots saw as similar to a “sphere encased in a cube.” Graves explains that UAPs would appear at “30,000 feet, 20,000 feet, even sea level” then depart at up to hypersonic speeds. The objects also would fly up to 12 hours at a time, far longer than conventional high-performance aircraft could do unrefueled. Aucoin says his own CATM-9 captive-training missile picked up the UAP. The AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR could observe the objects but the sensor did not register heat sources from any propulsion systems or any form of hot engine exhaust.

    The 2014–15 sightings differed from the Nimitz’s in one important way: The jets’ onboard radar could detect the objects. Fravor’s older generation F/A-18F had the AN/APG-73 radar system and could not detect the UAPs, while the pilots of VFA-111 had newer Super Hornets with AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array radarsthat could. The newer system possessed increased sensitivity and greater processing power.

    The objects were sighted several times over a period of almost a year, resulting in two more released videos: “Gimbal” and “Go Fast” (both available on YouTube). In the Gimbal video, one pilot remarks that the radar—presumably using the AN/APG-79’s search-while-track feature—picked up a “whole fleet” of the UAPs. According to the pilots’ voices in the video, the craft were flying against the wind, which was 120 knots out of the west. All three videos were recorded with the AN/ASQ-228.

    The New York Times interviewed three additional pilots who spoke about the objects but declined to go on the record. Other East Coast pilots reportedly had their own sightings. In one instance relayed by Graves, a UAP allegedly flew between two Super Hornets flying 100 feet apart. The incident resulted in the squadron filing an aviation flight safety report.

    The three videos posted to YouTube by To The Stars Academy of Arts and Sciences have been confirmed by the U.S. Navy as authentic, showing what the service classifies as unidentified aerial phenomena. UAP is a broad category, however, that includes literally anything that flies but is not identified, whether a frisbee or a flying saucer. While the videos are “genuine,” the viewer is left to wonder what exactly they depict.

    What are the objects? The UAPs can only be defined based on their observed characteristics. The West Coast sightings were of a 40-foot long, oblong-shaped objects. The East Coast sightings were generally of a “sphere within a cube”–shaped objects, though Graves has alluded to at least one sighting more like the Tic-Tac. Both types flew at hypersonic speeds and were capable of instantaneous acceleration to extremely high speeds. Neither appear to emit heat for propulsion when viewed in infrared.

    The objects appeared to have some limited antiradar and/or stealth capability. In 2004, the AN/APG-73 radar could not detect them, though the ship-based SPY-1 and E-2 Hawkeye APS-145 radar could. In 2004, the UAP also jammed a Super Hornet’s radar, leading to the obvious question: Why would a UAP carry a radar jammer?

    What could power the craft and what is the source of the craft propulsion? This is a wide-open area for speculation, and the only thing we can say with any certainty is that they do not use conventional aircraft propulsion. For one, ATFLIR confirms there is no heat-generating internal combustion engine that expels hot air and exhaust gases in a trail behind the aircraft. Not even a scramjet engine—or any other known engine—would allow it to reach speeds of 7,200 miles an hour instantaneously.

    Another mystery is that the craft seem to have the ability to hover, fly at amazing speeds, and then come to a quick stop, much faster than vertical-takeoff-and-landing aircraft such as the F-35B. The 2004 “FLIR1” footage shows the object going from a hover to zipping out of the camera field of view faster than any known aircraft. How any object can accomplish this is unknown.

    Graves comments that the craft seem to carry an extremely powerful energy source, flying for 12 hours in ways that would require a conventionally powered aircraft to refuel after an hour. This would rule out jet fuel and the small size of the craft seems to rule out nuclear power. One possibility is the use of so-called “zero-point energy,” or the potential energy derived from a vacuum. As for a propulsion system, some speculation has focused on a system that can refract gravity, pushing an object in a direction other than straight downward to Earth.

    The UAPs encountered in the 2004 and 2014–15 sightings could be secret, unacknowledged U.S. military aircraft. With what limited knowledge we have, that is the best-case scenario. (Alternately, they could be non-native to Earth, but that possibility creates far more questions than it answers.)

    More alarming is the idea that the craft belong to another country, Russia or China in particular. The idea that a potentially hostile power could operate highly advanced craft so close to the borders of the continental United States is disturbing and calls many things into question in a conventional conflict. It would be as great a threat as nuclear weapons—probably greater—making obsolete the largest and most modern arsenal of tactical aircraft in the world. Strangely, the U.S. military has not demonstrated any particular concern about the sightings.

    These UAP sightings remain a mystery. The objects, sighted by credible witnesses and detected and recorded by sophisticated sensors, are so far beyond the frame of reference of contemporary science and technology they meet science-fiction author Arthur C. Clarke’s famous dictum that “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Little can be learned without a craft for analysis or whoever operates them stepping forward. Until a better understanding of these UAPs is obtained, it would be prudent to consider these a potential threat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  15. BobK

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    So just how is this a threat to national security? Any idea?
     
  16. TexRex

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    Holy copypasta, Batman!
     
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  17. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Sure, I have ideas. But first let's restate the last 3 paragraphs of the navy blog:
    Now to come back to the question: "How could revealing top secret classified information on UAP phenomena to the public be a threat to national security?"

    #1: It might reveal sources and methods, for instance radar capabilities.
    #2: Your guess.
     
  18. baldgye

    baldgye Premium

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    What's your second idea?
     
  19. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    You first.
     
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  20. baldgye

    baldgye Premium

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    My idea is that this is all ******** conspiracy nonsense. Your turn!
     
  21. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Sorry Charlie, if you dismiss the entire subject, the conversation with you is over.
     
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  22. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    For the record, the Pentagon has changed its position on the purpose of AATIP/AAWSAP. It includes "temporal translation", whatever that is.

     
  23. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    @BobK
    After thinking about it for a few days, I'm going to say most observers of the topic would say "It would be a grave threat to the security of the United States to reveal classified information about a potential enemy, including their capabilities and intentions."

    I hesitated to discuss this because I don't want to presume or even suggest that the phenomena in question is an enemy.
    IMO, we simply do not know what the phenomena really is, other than unidentified. There are numerous possibilities, mostly not enemies.



    Readable version: https://www.airspacemag.com/space/year-ufos-180973965/
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  24. novcze

    novcze

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    I watched Fraser Cain video on Fermi Paradox the other day and thought to myself that you would enjoy his content... and it looks you do.

    It would be great relief for me if some inteligent extraterrestrials would arrive here, it would be confirmation that limitations of physics as we know it can be overcome and reasonable interstellar travel is possible.

    edit: Do you think that "first contact" event could have same effect as interdimensional squid in the Watchmen? ... I mean unite people, not wipe out NYC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  25. baldgye

    baldgye Premium

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    Why did you quote me?
     
  26. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    I realized my first answer to your question was not good enough, and I wanted to do better.
     
  27. baldgye

    baldgye Premium

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    But, your second answer, was even less of an answer than the first one was?

    First answer:
    "it might be this..."
    Second answer:
    "I don't know..."

    You might not have liked my original response and opinion, but at least it was an actual stance :lol:
     
  28. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Your response was nothing but denial that the phenomena exists. Of course in reality its does, but you are entitled to your feelings.

    To come back to the question: "How could revealing top secret classified information on UAP phenomena to the public be a threat to national security?"

    #1: It might reveal sources and methods, for instance radar capabilities.
    #2: It might reveal classified information about a potential enemy, including their capabilities and intentions."
     
  29. TexRex

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    "They won't talk about it" is about as clichéd as conspiracist claptrap gets.
     
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  30. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    Would you agree with @baldgye that the UAP/UFO phenomena is 100% nonsense conspiracy theory?