Very detailed driving techniques questions in ACPS4 

  • Thread starter FSportIS
  • 54 comments
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525
United States
United States
Wow @Orayani , that is super helpful information. No wonder at default settings, my T300 wheel is not only too strong but also exaggerate kerb, suspension, understeering too much. I don't know why people prefer to feel the kerb so much like that but in real life cars, most of that effect is dampened. Also, the suspension is felt more on the body/butt and not on the wheel itself. There is understeering/oversteering effect in real cars but not so dramatic increase/decrease of FFB like that at the default setting in AC.

Before someone goes crazy on me on defending how good FFB in AC is :). I'm not saying that FFB in AC is wrong/bad, but just exaggerated too much effect at the default settings. I guess setting Kerbs, road, slip to 0 will remove the exaggerated FFB??
 
525
United States
United States
I don't know why Kunos chose to do it that way. Anyone spend much time in a real GT3 car? Is that how the TC & ABS levels are displayed on the dashboard display??

I'm not sure about GT3 car but on modern performance car like the Corvette Stingray. They have different traction control modes: "weather", "normal", "track". They even have "performance traction control" on a certain model. Source: http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-stingray/mode-selector.html

I remember reading an article claiming that the "track" TC mode gives them the fastest lap times even more than TC off because the computer chip controls the spinning of each independent wheel beyond any human can do. I don't remember the link to that article.
 
3,851
Canada
Ottawa
@FSportIS the only way Kunos could provide a "default setup" would be if we all have the same wheel. Since we don't it could be that the "default setting" would work for a specific wheel, be even that is not true.
Think of it as an other so called default set up, the infamous FOV setting, since there is almost as many screen size and distance form the screen as there is set ups, Kunos has the get something into the game. That is why FFB is what it is when you start and FOV is 56.
Up to every one to set it according to their specific hardware and specific goals. Using the tool to see the if the FFB is saturating is a good start. saturating FFB does not communicate much.
Some people like too fight their wheel, think it is realistic, always looking for wheel with more torque.
I do not fight my wheel in my real car and can not remember ever fighting a wheel in any car. I have a decent wheel and I do not use all the force it can produce and I feel all I want to feel in AC.
 
1,334
Scotland
UK
voofx
Wow @Orayani , that is super helpful information. No wonder at default settings, my T300 wheel is not only too strong but also exaggerate kerb, suspension, understeering too much. I don't know why people prefer to feel the kerb so much like that but in real life cars, most of that effect is dampened. Also, the suspension is felt more on the body/butt and not on the wheel itself. There is understeering/oversteering effect in real cars but not so dramatic increase/decrease of FFB like that at the default setting in AC.

Before someone goes crazy on me on defending how good FFB in AC is :). I'm not saying that FFB in AC is wrong/bad, but just exaggerated too much effect at the default settings. I guess setting Kerbs, road, slip to 0 will remove the exaggerated FFB??

Yeah, those effects should be 0 and you should only be playing with the main feedback setting. I originally had my main feedback at 44% on the T300 but percevering with rubber mounts and tinkering with the tightness of the wheel I ended up lowering the feedback down to 27 percent. Can feel the lovely torque in high speed corners. The subtle changes in all levels of ABS chatter or wheel lock ups. Feeling the subtle or heavy rear end of the suspension as it comes around to correct it. Yet I'm still amazed how much I can feel the kerbs or rumble strips.

FFB = 27
Kerbs = 0
Road = 0
Slip = 0
Understeer =OFF
H Shifter = OFF


I originally had Understeer on from the beginning but it is another fake effect according to Stefano. It is too drastic from feeling to nothing.


Also another interesting video... Jump to 6:37.

 
5,161
United States
Massachusetts
I much prefer the way Stefano describes the "Effects". Kerb Effect - crap. Road Effect - crap. Slip Effect - crap. :lol:

@FSportIS - Of course many modern vehicles have driver adjustable Traction Control systems. My question was if it's common to assign the most TC/ABS to the lowest number and the least amount of TC/ABS to the highest number - particularly in real GT3 race cars. When I think of a knob, like a volume knob maybe...1 is the lowest setting for volume and 10 is the highest setting for volume (unless you play in Spinal Tap). GT6 assigned 1 to the lowest ABS setting, didn't they? I've never played anything else...
 
525
United States
United States
I much prefer the way Stefano describes the "Effects". Kerb Effect - crap. Road Effect - crap. Slip Effect - crap. :lol:

@FSportIS - Of course many modern vehicles have driver adjustable Traction Control systems. My question was if it's common to assign the most TC/ABS to the lowest number and the least amount of TC/ABS to the highest number - particularly in real GT3 race cars. When I think of a knob, like a volume knob maybe...1 is the lowest setting for volume and 10 is the highest setting for volume (unless you play in Spinal Tap). GT6 assigned 1 to the lowest ABS setting, didn't they? I've never played anything else...

Yeah, haha, AC seems to have their "mathematics" in a reverse order. Like you mentioned, I would not guess that is how the numbers would work 1 being strongest and 8 being lowest for TC and ABS lol. I wonder what about 0?

Another reverse order is in the tuning, for example, the camber, they describe "increase" camber as going from +0.5 to 0, -0.5 to -1. Mathematically, -1 is actually smaller than -0.5 so it is decreasing :D
 
525
United States
United States
Yeah, those effects should be 0 and you should only be playing with the main feedback setting. I originally had my main feedback at 44% on the T300 but percevering with rubber mounts and tinkering with the tightness of the wheel I ended up lowering the feedback down to 27 percent. Can feel the lovely torque in high speed corners. The subtle changes in all levels of ABS chatter or wheel lock ups. Feeling the subtle or heavy rear end of the suspension as it comes around to correct it. Yet I'm still amazed how much I can feel the kerbs or rumble strips.

FFB = 27
Kerbs = 0
Road = 0
Slip = 0
Understeer =OFF
H Shifter = OFF


I originally had Understeer on from the beginning but it is another fake effect according to Stefano. It is too drastic from feeling to nothing.


Also another interesting video... Jump to 6:37.


Thank you for all this. I will try this settings out. I always thought I'm in the minority when I think that there are too much exaggerations in the force feedback in many games at the default settings and that fighting a wheel with super strong force as unrealistic/unnatural because I see that many seem to prefer strong torque, crazy exaggerated effect as they think these are more real.

Anyways, I'm very glad to see you and may be others who also share same opinion about force feedback, it is not about the quantity (torque and exaggeration) but rather quality (actual feel that similar to a real car).

With all that saying, among GT6, PCars, and AC, I have to give big thumb up to AC, AC provides the finest force feedback. The only thing I did not like was the exaggerated effect but now I know the solution so man, I will love AC so much more with this refinement :)
 
1,334
Scotland
UK
voofx
At first you might think detail is missing because things have become lighter. Not suggesting you use mine but when it is setup correctly there is so much detail, subtle but such smooth detail!

I like to think of my wheel with a big rubber band. Enough spring and resistance for turning. Even a real modern car isn't that stiff.
 
525
United States
United States
@Orayani I have to agree with you on so many levels. Yep, when I do autocross, time trials in real life, the steering wheels on my cars aren't that stiff even on semi-slick tires.

Also, I notice AC does a very good job on tires. In real life, you can recover easier on harder compounds because of more available correction time and on softer compounds it is harder to recover. AC simulate this very damn well. I'm talking specifically on street cars.
 
536
Australia
Vic, Australia
Yeah, those effects should be 0 and you should only be playing with the main feedback setting. I originally had my main feedback at 44% on the T300 but percevering with rubber mounts and tinkering with the tightness of the wheel I ended up lowering the feedback down to 27 percent. Can feel the lovely torque in high speed corners. The subtle changes in all levels of ABS chatter or wheel lock ups. Feeling the subtle or heavy rear end of the suspension as it comes around to correct it. Yet I'm still amazed how much I can feel the kerbs or rumble strips.

FFB = 27
Kerbs = 0
Road = 0
Slip = 0
Understeer =OFF
H Shifter = OFF


I originally had Understeer on from the beginning but it is another fake effect according to Stefano. It is too drastic from feeling to nothing.


Also another interesting video... Jump to 6:37.


Completely agree, effects felt jittery and exaggerated. I just use FFB setting on the G29 for a smooth detailed feel. Using 60 ATM but may try reducing it more. Looking for a realistic weight on turn in. I turned the Understeer effect off too a few weeks ago, after inducing some understeer in my Forester and found the steering weight didn't release quite as much. Everything off seems near perfect.
 
5,161
United States
Massachusetts
While I am a believer in keeping all of those "multipliers & canned effects" set to zero, I am glad that they included those three sliders (Kerb, Slip, Road). Using those values might be changing the FFB from 100% physics driven to special effects, but some people have said that it helped them learn how to drive in a computerized environment with no G-Forces and as they gained experience they lowered and lowered those values until they're finally all off. Based on my suggestion they didn't use a lot to begin with...just enough to exaggerate the effects for a couple of months. It probably helped that I nagged the crap out of 'em. :D

Most of you know that we are now on what Kunos calls Tire Model 10 (TM10). There were actually only 7 iterations before TM10, but they actually re-wrote the entire TM from the ground up for what would have been TM8, so they decided to move the name ahead to TM10. While the code is all new (probably more efficient and some formulas probably changed a bit) there are only two new parameters introduced with TM10. Otherwise, all of the same parameters from TM7 are still there.

The two new parameters are:

CX_MULT
This is easily the most interesting addition to the model. It controls the Cornering Stiffness of the longitudinal part of the tyre force generation. A value lower than 1.0 will make the longitudinal part less aggressive, 1.0 will make it exactly like the lateral, and higher than 1.0 values will make it stiffer. While this is interesting, the most important effect of this value is in the way longitudinal and lateral forces gets combined into a resultant force. Sadly data on combined forces is pretty rare so there isn't a "correct value" to suggest here. Lower values of CX_MULT will create a tyre that feels more responsive to throttle/brake application. In other words, there will be more loss in lateral friction when longitudinal friction is applied. Higher values will do the exact opposite by creating a tyre that is more pointy and composed. It's a parameter that really has huge effects on final car behavior.

RADIUS_ANGULAR_K
This is the tyre radius increase as function of rotation speed. It is a simple linear relationship where the dynamic tyre radius is:
dynamic_radius=radius + RADIUS_ANGULAR_K * abs(tyre_rotation)

Here RADIUS_ANGULAR_K is in mm/rad/s and tyre rotation is rad/s.

That is copied from a post written by Stefano, lead programmer and physics genie (along with Aristotelis). It's that CX_MULT parameter that really changes the overall feel & responsiveness of the tires, in my opinion. I've been doing some testing with a couple of cars that are on TM10 and then I swap out those cars for the same exact car, but back on TM7. There is probably some placebo going on, but there is also undeniable difference in the overall responsiveness of the tires.

Finally, with all of this TM10 talk, keep in mind that the majority of vehicles in Assetto Corsa are still on TM7. All of the newer cars (Porsche) are on TM10. All GT3/GT2 cars are on TM10 and a few street cars (BMW M4 & Corvette) and the GT40 are on TM10. For as much as I complain about the GT40, even on the new TM10, that car might be one of the best examples of difference between TM7 & TM10. I know Aris is tasked with moving the remaining cars onto TM10, so we should see everything on TM10 fairly soon.

For seasoned players, please forgive me for my lengthy posts, FSportIS is a friend and a new AC player, and I know he's a guy who likes to know as much as he can about what's behind the curtain. And maybe other newbies will find this stuff interesting even though it may be old hat for many of you.
 

FPV MIC

Premium
3,130
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
While I am a believer in keeping all of those "multipliers & canned effects" set to zero, I am glad that they included those three sliders (Kerb, Slip, Road). Using those values might be changing the FFB from 100% physics driven to special effects, but some people have said that it helped them learn how to drive in a computerized environment with no G-Forces and as they gained experience they lowered and lowered those values until they're finally all off. Based on my suggestion they didn't use a lot to begin with...just enough to exaggerate the effects for a couple of months. It probably helped that I nagged the crap out of 'em. :D

Most of you know that we are now on what Kunos calls Tire Model 10 (TM10). There were actually only 7 iterations before TM10, but they actually re-wrote the entire TM from the ground up for what would have been TM8, so they decided to move the name ahead to TM10. While the code is all new (probably more efficient and some formulas probably changed a bit) there are only two new parameters introduced with TM10. Otherwise, all of the same parameters from TM7 are still there.

The two new parameters are:



That is copied from a post written by Stefano, lead programmer and physics genie (along with Aristotelis). It's that CX_MULT parameter that really changes the overall feel & responsiveness of the tires, in my opinion. I've been doing some testing with a couple of cars that are on TM10 and then I swap out those cars for the same exact car, but back on TM7. There is probably some placebo going on, but there is also undeniable difference in the overall responsiveness of the tires.

Finally, with all of this TM10 talk, keep in mind that the majority of vehicles in Assetto Corsa are still on TM7. All of the newer cars (Porsche) are on TM10. All GT3/GT2 cars are on TM10 and a few street cars (BMW M4 & Corvette) and the GT40 are on TM10. For as much as I complain about the GT40, even on the new TM10, that car might be one of the best examples of difference between TM7 & TM10. I know Aris is tasked with moving the remaining cars onto TM10, so we should see everything on TM10 fairly soon.

For seasoned players, please forgive me for my lengthy posts, FSportIS is a friend and a new AC player, and I know he's a guy who likes to know as much as he can about what's behind the curtain. And maybe other newbies will find this stuff interesting even though it may be old hat for many of you.
Wasn't TM10 for all GT3/GT2 cars only introduced on the last PC update and not yet on console? I ask this because we don't have this information on screen like you guys do so it is very hard for us to know (a list would be handy), and it is also confusing trying to work out if you are referring to what you have on PC or what we have console at the current time. Not saying you're wrong with this TM10 stuff as, like I said, I don't know what version we are on for those cars.

I don't mean to harp on about this but you PC guys really need to make this distinction to avoid confusion and the risk of misinformation when in PS4/console threads. But in saying that, I also greatly appreciate much of the information that you share as it is very informative and can also greatly assist in problem solving.
 
5,161
United States
Massachusetts
Wasn't TM10 for all GT3/GT2 cars only introduced on the last PC update and not yet on console? I ask this because we don't have this information on screen like you guys do so it is very hard for us to know (a list would be handy), and it is also confusing trying to work out if you are referring to what you have on PC or what we have console at the current time. Not saying you're wrong with this TM10 stuff as, like I said, I don't know what version we are on for those cars.

I don't mean to harp on about this but you PC guys really need to make this distinction to avoid confusion and the risk of misinformation when in PS4/console threads. But in saying that, I also greatly appreciate much of the information that you share as it is very informative and can also greatly assist in problem solving.
Hmmm. Ya know...I'm not exactly sure about when TM10 was put on the remainder of GT3 cars. You might be correct though...Perhaps the console isn't as current with TM10 tires - hopefully your update on Tuesday is going to rectify that.

I will admit that I do forget about the technical differences between the two versions at times. I have tried to make an effort to refrain from posting this type of stuff in PS4 related forums and I'll try my best to refrain from such mistakes in the future. I certainly do not want to confuse anyone. My apologizes.
 

FPV MIC

Premium
3,130
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
Hmmm. Ya know...I'm not exactly sure about when TM10 was put on the remainder of GT3 cars. You might be correct though...Perhaps the console isn't as current with TM10 tires - hopefully your update on Tuesday is going to rectify that.
Yes, agreed, the closer we are the better for information sharing and comparisons, but just far enough behind for us that you PC guys sort out most of the bugs for us.:sly:
I will admit that I do forget about the technical differences between the two versions at times. I have tried to make an effort to refrain from posting this type of stuff in PS4 related forums and I'll try my best to refrain from such mistakes in the future. I certainly do not want to confuse anyone. My apologizes.
Thanks for understanding (I'm easily confused:dunce:) 👍:):cheers:
 
5,161
United States
Massachusetts
That's my opinion as well. I think console players should want to be 2-3 weeks behind PC players solely for the fact that we're kind of like your Beta Testers. Considering that horrible update submission process, Kunos could never push out fixes the way they can on PC.
 
5,161
United States
Massachusetts
It will be so much easier once they're all on V10. This is the only time this has ever happened. With every other change of the TM, it would appear in a new version AC update and all cars would be on the new tire model at the same time.

In my opinion, I think it has a lot to do with the new parameter [CX_MULT]. The fact that it isn't really something they can measure, I think it's taking a fair bit of time getting straightened out. Aris has pointed to the V10 tires being incredibly sensitive, so I'm sure fine-tuning can be a long process. But, that's just my opinion. Aris still has a crapload of cars left to incorporate brake temperatures.
 

FPV MIC

Premium
3,130
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
Console GT2/GT3 cars are on V10 as well as the Porsches. Not sure how many others are.
It will be so much easier once they're all on V10. This is the only time this has ever happened. With every other change of the TM, it would appear in a new version AC update and all cars would be on the new tire model at the same time.

In my opinion, I think it has a lot to do with the new parameter [CX_MULT]. The fact that it isn't really something they can measure, I think it's taking a fair bit of time getting straightened out. Aris has pointed to the V10 tires being incredibly sensitive, so I'm sure fine-tuning can be a long process. But, that's just my opinion. Aris still has a crapload of cars left to incorporate brake temperatures.
So have I got this right now? All GT2/GT3 cars on PS4 are on V10's but the V10's on PC on the same cars are a different version of V10's. This is what has thrown me, it's from the last PC update...
e.JPG
It's no wonder I get confused:scared::ouch::crazy::lol:

PS. My apologies to the OP for the detour in this thread.
 
3,851
Canada
Ottawa
Just a remark about the whole TM7 vs TM10, yes it is an improvement but I dare anyone here to drive a car without knowing which version they are on and be able to say for sure which TM the car is equipped with. My point is that there is a difference when you compare directly the same car in the same track condition with the 2 TM yes but it is not big, changing the track grip makes a bigger difference.
So kunos can take all the time they need/want it is not like we cannot enjoy AC on TM 7.
 

FPV MIC

Premium
3,130
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
Just a remark about the whole TM7 vs TM10, yes it is an improvement but I dare anyone here to drive a car without knowing which version they are on and be able to say for sure which TM the car is equipped with. My point is that there is a difference when you compare directly the same car in the same track condition with the 2 TM yes but it is not big, changing the track grip makes a bigger difference.
So kunos can take all the time they need/want it is not like we cannot enjoy AC on TM 7.
For me, it hasn't been a grip related question/issue, I've been trying to understand why most of the Porsche's have really overstated/horrible tyre sounds when turning compared to other cars in the game, even under hardly any load, and having a fair idea they were on V10's, I was trying to work out if that could be what the issue is by comparing to V7's and other cars with V10's.

Just to add, we can't yet change track grip yet on PS4 unfortunately, that's something to look forward to still, maybe next update:sly:
 
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1,231
Lebanon
Jounieh
Georgeagea
If I am using ABS I keep it 100% pressure and let the ABS do the work. Also in racing cars with ABS setting form like 1-11, 1 is most ABS and 11 being the least.

Wow! Mind blown! I thought it's the opposite way around! It's so counter-intuitive! I thought it's like 1/11 as a grade (<0.1) so it's at its lowest and 11/11 is like 1 so it's at its max!
 
5,161
United States
Massachusetts
This is just one of those things that confuses the hell out of most people when they first start playing. I know it confused me. That's actually a good way of looking at it @RacingManiac. I will be stealing that from you. :D
 
1,539
RaceManiacGT1
I first noticed it on HUDDash on my tablet, when I switch the mode it shows it in higher %, I am not sure where it pulls that number from but it makes sense...lol