Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli...

KobayashiFan

KobayashiFan

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Link to the actual article which is also fully quoted below...
AUTOSPORT
Scuderia Toro Rosso's technical director Giorgio Ascanelli, who oversaw new world champion Sebastian Vettel's first victory in Formula 1 - in the 2008 Italian Grand Prix at Monza - believes that the 23-year-old German has a similar level of ability to that of Ayrton Senna, according to this week's AUTOSPORT magazine.

Ascanelli, who worked with Senna during the late Brazilian's glory years at McLaren in the early 1990s, said that he knew Vettel was a special talent from the moment he began working with him.

"I am a very lucky man, because at the start of my career and now at the end I have been touched by perfection," said the Italian. "I said two years ago that Sebastian Vettel would be world champion and here we are.

"You never know how many championships he can win. To quote Ron Dennis, winning a championship is relatively easy - but being consistently at the top of your ability is bloody hard," he added.

"That's the difficult part, but I think Sebastian has got the will to do it. He's going to be a big competitor for a long time."
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What is your opinion on this? Although I realise he has a better view point of the situation considering he worked with Senna, I can not help but feel he is getting a little carried away after Vettels title success. Maybe after Vettel matures more, the two can be more closely compared. Despite being outstandingly quick in qualifying and races, Vettel has made many basic errors this season that you would hardly expect to see in GP2; let alone in Formula One. As far as I am aware, Senna did not make basic errors in his early seasons. This is the huge difference I am seeing. Despite this, I have no doubt Vettel deserved his title and it was not a fluke. However, I'm not sure the two can be compared yet. What do you think?

(This is not to take a slam at Vettel. I am aware he had mechanical issues which he would have been champion sonner without).
 
Hm, altough I'm pretty young to be able to judge here, I wouldn't really agree. I saw some races and documentary of Senna and it was simply mindblowing, I do not see the same when I watch Vettel.
 
I honestly and wholeheartedly do NOT agree with that comparison for reasons I've stated at least twelve times already.
 
In pure racing skill alone, he is definitely as good as, if not better than Senna. It's not just because he had a fast car that he won and kept getting poles, mark webber had the same car, and he, to be honest, was a disgrace to red bull. I think Lewis should be Vettels team mate next year.
 
Another doubt I have had which I forgot to mention in my opening post, is Vettels overtaking skill. When he is on pole position, he more often than not pulls out a gap from the rest of the pack very quickly. And from that point nobody else can seem to catch him. However, when he is actually having to overtake, he often gets stuck behind.
 
grbmrdj
In pure racing skill alone, he is definitely as good as, if not better than Senna. It's not just because he had a fast car that he won and kept getting poles, mark webber had the same car, and he, to be honest, was a disgrace to red bull. I think Lewis should be Vettels team mate next year.
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No. Just no.

...If not better than? Really?
 
He's not as good as Ayrton Senna. He's not even as good as Alonso, Hamilton and co. yet. He won because of his ultimately superior car (Just like Button did in 2009).

He's got a long way to go.
 
We all will see.
Don't forget he is really young and he will develope even more.
He is very talented and you can't say he isn't.
In two years you all will accept this and see that he will become the next racing legend.
 
Generational/era comparisons are a waste of time as the technology differences make comparison impossible (e.g. f1 track records).

Senna was Senna

Gilles was Gilles; etc.
 
grbmrdj
In pure racing skill alone, he is definitely as good as, if not better than Senna. It's not just because he had a fast car that he won and kept getting poles, mark webber had the same car, and he, to be honest, was a disgrace to red bull. I think Lewis should be Vettels team mate next year.
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What? Yes, Vettel got more poles than Webber, but it wasn't as if there was a huge gap between them. They are two of the most closely matched team mates on the grid, in my opinion. Seb showed his (slight) edge over Mark right at the end of the season, when it really mattered.

All things being equal, I think Hamilton is faster when he really needs to put the hammer down, and Alonso is more consistent. Vettel will quite likely mature into an even better driver than he already is, but currently I rate those two more highly than him. It is too early in his career to make meaningful Senna comparisons.
 
They aren't comparable. Senna drove much harder to drive machinery in a different age of the sport.
 
Seismica
He's not as good as Ayrton Senna. He's not even as good as Alonso, Hamilton and co. yet. He won because of his ultimately superior car (Just like Button did in 2009).

He's got a long way to go.
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Uhh, what did Senna do as well? I'm no trying to bring Senna down, a car is nothing without the driver, but the McLaren of that time was absolutely dominant and had no equal. Anywhere. They bloody won all but one race in 1988.
 
Kind of forced to take Ascanelli's word for it since he is much closer to the sport. I began watching F1 in 1995, so I missed Senna's career. Only lately have I started watching old footage from the 80's... (it's interesting to observe how the sport has and hasn't changed. I'm currently part way through the 1988 F1 season... no refueling sucked just as much in the 80's as it does now)

Based on the races from the 80's I have seen, the biggest difference I observe between the two is in their aggressiveness. It's hard to compare outright driving skill or pace because the cars and tracks have evolved so much... but Senna was extremely brave when it came to overtaking (for position or back-markers) and pretty effective at keeping faster cars behind him when he had to.
Granted, the regulations have changed a bit too and drivers today don't have the freedom to try some of the maneuvers Senna did during his time. Today he'd regularly be handed drive-thrus for blocking or causing collisions.

People are quick to praise Senna now as one of the greats if not the best ever, but he made errors too. Just a few days ago I finished watching the 88 Monaco GP which he led from the start until late in the race when he put himself into the barriers trying to respond to a few quick laps Prost was putting in behind him.

Anyways, just what I've been noticing.
 
I don't know. Webber was pretty close to his qualifying pace and might have matched him on race pace. And I never considered Webber to be that good. I mean his first win came in 2009.
 
Look, don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for Senna, but I am an even bigger fan of Vettel. I may or may not be right, as there is no way of comparing the two. I haven't seen any full races of Senna as he died a few months before I was even born, but I have seen many of Vettels races. I think it's fair to say though, that he was best racing drivers of his time, as Vettel is in his. But as I said, there's no way to know for sure.
 
Webber's first win was the first time he had a car capable of a win. The 2008 RB wasn't, nor was the 2007 one, the 2006 Williams broke down all the time, and so ere all the others.
 
Right now Vettel is only good with a clear track he has a long way to go to prove his racecraft around other cars. Sennas wins in the wet in the Lotus and also in the Mclaren at Donington are incredible pieces of driving but with the current regulations its hard for any driver to even get close to pulling of these kinds of performances. To me Senna is and probably always will be light years ahead of any other driver, but that is a personal opinion and these things could never really be measured across different eras of any sport.
 
grbmrdj
Look, don't get me wrong, I have a huge amount of respect for Senna, but I am an even bigger fan of Vettel. I may or may not be right, as there is no way of comparing the two. I haven't seen any full races of Senna as he died a few months before I was even born, but I have seen many of Vettels races. I think it's fair to say though, that he was best racing drivers of his time, as Vettel is in his. But as I said, there's no way to know for sure.
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I take nothing away from Vettel, but all he's proven this year is that if he's left alone he can build up a gap; alternatively, if you place him right in the middle of people like Alonso, Button, Webber, and even Hamilton and it's left up to him to overtake...8 times out of 10 he'll likely crash into someone or something. For the sake of this argumentative point of view, let's assume him winning the WDC means nothing more than he has tremendous pace around the track.

What about his racing craft? It appears to be non-existent in the example above.

He's been pampered since joining Red Bull (remind you of someone in a similar situation?).

Although this has nothing to do with him, but every time a mistake was made on his behalf (and virtually all of them were his fault) it was excused because of his age - none of that BS is going to fly next year.
 
I don't rate Vettel much at all. He's quick, but only when he's on his own.

Schumacher was winning in 1994 and imo he's greater than Senna. Vettel? Meh...

grbmrdj
In pure racing skill alone, he is definitely as good as, if not better than Senna. It's not just because he had a fast car that he won and kept getting poles, mark webber had the same car, and he, to be honest, was a disgrace to red bull.
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epic-facepalm.jpg
 
Well, I don't really know the answer yet but for now, he isn't. ;) Give him ten more seasons and then we can judge properly.

As a side note, the beggining of Vettel's career is more promising than Scumacher's, I don't know if he will be able to beat his countrymate in plain numbers, but for sheer agressivity they're quite similar. And that is really good, Hamilton and Vettel are my favourite drivers in this season, not only by their quickness or results, but more for their dareness, I would put Kobayashi in this group too, but he still needs support from a major team though.
 
Let's not forget... Vettel's career didn't magically start in 2010. He had his first points and wins in Scuderia Toro Rosso. Many of us have been watching him intently since he first showed what he could do in the arguably inferior STR. Sure, it had a great Ferrari engine, but it wasn't quite as good as the class leaders of the time.

He's made mistakes. He's had a hard time overtaking this year... but both RBR drivers have had problems overtaking... many of us have theorized it's because the RBR's flexible floor and strong front aerodynamics make it very unstable pulling out of another car's wake. They can easily overtake much slower cars... but hell... what top-tier car nowadays has had an easy time overtaking other top-tier cars unless the other driver has made a big mistake?

We had a rare opportunity back when Alonso left Renault, to see two top-echelon drivers duke it out inside a team, which is how we feel we can compare Alonso and Hamilton. Both have incredible raw pace... though I think Alonso manages to get more pace for less stress on the car than Hamilton, where Hamilton has a little more raw pace, overall.

In terms of raw skill, Vettel might be close to Hamilton... or better... we will never know unless you put them in the same team, in the same car. Both guys seem easily able to extract that extra tenth their team-mates can't. But Hamilton seems incredibly able to find an extra two or three tenths beyond what the car can actually do. I don't know if I've seen Vettel do that... though despite the fact that Mark snatched a few poles from him... I still believe that in terms of ability, he completely smothers the Aussie.
 
Bad comparison. The only thing Vettel has done that would be "like Senna" is when he won the 2008 Italian GP in a mid-back pack Toro Rosso.

Even that is a stretch since overtaking in 2008 was more rare than a rainstorm in Abu Dhabi.

Senna nearly won Monaco in 1984(?) in a heavy downpour behind the wheel of a beyond mediocre Toleman. He started near 20th in that race if I remember correctly. In the last 30 years, just based on driver skill, Senna is undoubtedly the best driver with Schumacher second best.

This is of course, my opinion.
 
Premature for an imature driver that has yet to put in his time for a few more years to mature and break some more records. But undoubtedly he is definitely a talented driver that will only improve with time. But like wine we won't know how well it will taste with age. So far it's looking good but I wouldn't put him on a pedestal as of yet.
 
I believe it. This is the first of a few driver's championships for him. People were saying the same about Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso when they won championships so young. I don't see what makes Vettel different. I do admit he showed immaturity in a few races over the season, but I think winning the driver's crown is going to mature him a little. We have to wait until next season and hopefully Newey can design an awesome RB7.
 
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Rossticles
I believe it. This is the first of a few driver's championships for him. People were saying the same about Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso when they won championships so young. I don't see what makes Vettel different. I do admit he showed immaturity in a few races over the season, but I think winning the driver's crown is going to mature him a little. We have to wait until next season and hopefully Newey can design an awesome RB7.
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Vettel has been relatively unchallenged due to the superior machinery he has been given, that's why a lot of people still feel he has a lot to prove. Just because you can grab pole time and time again and control a race in a clearly dominant/easy to drive car doesn't mean it's some truly impressive feat.

When Alonso and Hamilton won their Championships they actually faced a legitmate challenge when it came to their competition.
 
Oh my gosh, who does this Ascanelli guy think he is??? As good as Senna? Vettel is miles better than Senna!!!!

Wait, we're talking about Bruno Senna, right?

:P

Ok, right now Vettel is not as good as Ayrton Senna. Though, I'd really like to see Vettel's stats in ten years or so. Then we can make a better judgement.
 

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