Walk for Climate Around The World

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I admitted we as humans do affect the weather. But ignore my last paragraph...
Nowhere in the last paragraph of the post I quoted in my first do you mention the weather. You did mention it in your only other post prior to my first, but not in the manner that you claim in the post I've quoted above. I know this because I took the time to read both posts--and all others in the thread, including looking into embedded links--before I composed any part of my first post. Care to try again without the dishonesty and misplaced indignation?
 
I don't get it. Why take time off school or work to protest about climate change? How about instead of complaining, you reduce your carbon footprint! Don't go to McDonalds all the time, don't drink coffee, don't use plastic bottles, ride a bicycle instead of driving a big SUV, use less electricity and don't take that holiday. It's kinda funny that most of these young children will probably go out to McDonald's afterwards and create more waste... If they fear soo badly for the future of the planet, blaming the government won't change anything.
 
I don't get it. Why take time off school or work to protest about climate change?
To attempt to affect positive change.

How about instead of complaining, you reduce your carbon footprint!
Reducing one's own environmental impact and exercising the right to protest in an effort to affect change from an administration so apathetic to environmental matters aren't mutually exclusive.

It's kinda funny that most of these young children will probably go out to McDonald's afterwards and create more waste...
Ah, so they're hypocrites because of what you assume they'll do in the future. Neat.

If they fear soo badly for the future of the planet, blaming the government won't change anything.
So the prevailing aim here is to blame the government? Citation please.
 
To attempt to affect change.
But at what cost?
Reducing one's own environmental impact and exercising the right to protest in an effort to affect change from an administration so apathetic to environmental matters aren't mutually exclusive.
Don't understand what you mean.
Ah, so they're hypocrites because of what you assume they'll do in the future. Neat.
They are hypocrites! These young people use the protest as an excuse for a day out!
So the prevailing aim here is to blame the government? Citation please.
Well they claim that the governments aren't doing enough so yes, they are being blamed.
 
How many times was the world supposed to end already?

Please show me a peer reviewed, published article by the United States Geological Survey, NASA, or other similar organizations that predicted the world was supposed to end multiple times by now.

Check your sources.
 
IMO, the hard science underlying climate policy has been extremely narrowly based, and thus not really credible or worth taking terribly seriously. The glaring problem - pardon the pun - is the omission of solar forcing (other than radiation) from the models. Wonderfully, this situation is in the process of changing! As of the 2022 IPCC report (for the first time ever) solar particles including solar wind, flares, and CMEs, as well as galactic cosmic rays, are to be taken into the natural forcing model. Then, and only then, will we have a comprehensive and hopefully credible insight into climate. As these additional insights come into consideration, I feel climate science is going to undergo revelatory changes and improvements, and will ultimately begin to enable meaningful and constructive policy from regulatory agencies.
 
But at what cost?
Indeed. If you're of the belief there's a cost, the onus is yours to elaborate.

Don't understand what you mean.
It's possible to do both.

They are hypocrites! These young people use the protest as an excuse for a day out!
Citation needed.

Well they claim that the governments aren't doing enough so yes, they are being blamed.
I asked for a citation and you've made another unsubstantiated claim. Was there some mix-up en route from the southern hemisphere to the northern?

Or is today just backwards day? No? So it is then...

Edit:

IMO, the hard science underlying climate policy has been extremely narrowly based, and thus not really credible or worth taking terribly seriously. The glaring problem - pardon the pun - is the omission of solar forcing (other than radiation) from the models. Wonderfully, this situation is in the process of changing! As of the 2022 IPCC report (for the first time ever) solar particles including solar wind, flares, and CMEs, as well as galactic cosmic rays, are to be taken into the natural forcing model. Then, and only then, will we have a comprehensive and hopefully credible insight into climate. As these additional insights come into consideration, I feel climate science is going to undergo revelatory changes and improvements, and will ultimately begin to enable meaningful and constructive policy from regulatory agencies.
Flim-flam.
 
Indeed. If you're of the belief there's a cost, the onus is yours to elaborate.


It's possible to do both.


Citation needed.


I asked for a citation and you've made another unsubstantiated claim. Was there some mix-up en route from the southern hemisphere to the northern?

Or is today just backwards day? No? So it is then...
Mate you can't just expect me to have dedicated sources on hand whenever they're needed... But about the day out thing: A Melbourne university which takes some kind of engineering course said that if their students took a selfie at the climate protest, they would get more marks. So these students are actually being rewarded for taking a day out away from university. I say that they blame the government because many right-wing politicians have been insulted for not believing in climate change. One target in particular is our Prime Minister, Scott Morrison who doesn't have a climate agenda like Malcolm Turnbull, who lost his job as PM earlier this year. He's been labelled as a denier and the left absolutely despise him for not having a climate plan to tackle climate change. I don't think that's fair because Australia don't produce a heap of emissions compared to the USA and China. Not even 1% of the entire world's pollution. It's hilarious because China and India continue to produce masses of carbon dioxide whilst the Victorian government shuts down a coal-fired power plant... No wonder why power is soo expensive in my city.
 
I don't get it. Why take time off school or work to protest about climate change? How about instead of complaining, you reduce your carbon footprint! Don't go to McDonalds all the time, don't drink coffee, don't use plastic bottles, ride a bicycle instead of driving a big SUV, use less electricity and don't take that holiday. It's kinda funny that most of these young children will probably go out to McDonald's afterwards and create more waste... If they fear soo badly for the future of the planet, blaming the government won't change anything.
I totally agree.
 
Mate you can't just expect me to have dedicated sources on hand whenever they're needed... But about the day out thing: A Melbourne university which takes some kind of engineering course said that if their students took a selfie at the climate protest, they would get more marks. So these students are actually being rewarded for taking a day out away from university. I say that they blame the government because many right-wing politicians have been insulted for not believing in climate change. One target in particular is our Prime Minister, Scott Morrison who doesn't have a climate agenda like Malcolm Turnbull, who lost his job as PM earlier this year. He's been labelled as a denier and the left absolutely despise him for not having a climate plan to tackle climate change. I don't think that's fair because Australia don't produce a heap of emissions compared to the USA and China. Not even 1% of the entire world's pollution. It's hilarious because China and India continue to produce masses of carbon dioxide whilst the Victorian government shuts down a coal-fired power plant... No wonder why power is soo expensive in my city.
If you’re going to compel other nations to address climate change, it may be handy to demonstrate that you’re not a hypocrite by having addressed it in your domain.
 
If you’re going to compel other nations to address climate change, it may be handy to demonstrate that you’re not a hypocrite by having addressed it in your domain.
Well that's all you can do isn't it?
 
Nowhere in the last paragraph of the post I quoted in my first do you mention the weather. You did mention it in your only other post prior to my first, but not in the manner that you claim in the post I've quoted above. I know this because I took the time to read both posts--and all others in the thread, including looking into embedded links--before I composed any part of my first post. Care to try again without the dishonesty and misplaced indignation?
There must be a miscommunication cause in said post, you quoted my last paragraph. The first post after that was a 1 liner. I acknowledged we as humans can affect a regions climate.
I also don't look at the US as the problem for global weather/climate change. Now would changing our ways help in the long run? I'd bet yes. I don't like our government trying to guilt trip us when the US isn't the big problem as far as air pollution is concerned.
I'm more worried how America haphazardly discards our trash and even ships it out of countries that don't properly dispose of it.
 
It just goes to show how doomed our species is when one side is presented with hard facts and science that the other side dodges with dumbass quotes and memes so they don’t have to deal with the responsibility that their wasteful lifestyle is the entire cause of the current crisis our planet faces. Hell yeah I’m a hypocrite, but at least I don’t deny climate change!
 
The real argument being made here against any action is: "No u"
I'm sure it seems like that.
What is a country supposed to do with a million regulations on this, that and the other? We ship it to another country that can deal with it cheaper and has no repercussions.
We could deal with it in a cleaner more efficient way! But we're all about the $$.
-----------
That stupid thing we call currency is what's actually killing us.
We could all live a practically zero emissions life except for the camp fire for food(edit: can't forget the cow flatulence!)but no one would have money. That can't happen! Humanity screwed itself WAY before we realized what a climate is!
 
I'm sure it seems like that.
What is a country supposed to do with a million regulations on this, that and the other? We ship it to another country that can deal with it cheaper and has no repercussions.
We could deal with it in a cleaner more efficient way! But we're all about the $$.
-----------
That stupid thing we call currency is what's actually killing us.
We could all live a practically zero emissions life except for the camp fire for food(edit: can't forget the cow flatulence!)but no one would have money. That can't happen! Humanity screwed itself WAY before we realized what a climate is!
When the country spends trillions on Military equipment to keep your Corrupt politicans Donors happy sure it isn't that much to ask.

Ofcourse it is too much to ask though, because the system is broken.
 
The system isn’t broken, it’s working as intended. The plutocracy has never been stronger!
I suppose the wealth inequality gap is good evidence of that truth.
Even so, most people continue to seek employment, pay their bills, and not rock the boat. The plutocracy are very wise to sponsor racing cars and other entertainments, as well as liberalize drug use, porn and indeed all available alienating soporifics. The revolution is postponed for another day.
 
A Melbourne university which takes some kind of engineering course said that if their students took a selfie at the climate protest, they would get more marks. So these students are actually being rewarded for taking a day out away from university.
One day out of an entire year of university is nothing. My university also supported students and staff members attending the strike.

I'd also like to see a source for "getting more marks for taking a selfie", this sounds like utter BS.
I say that they blame the government because many right-wing politicians have been insulted for not believing in climate change. One target in particular is our Prime Minister, Scott Morrison who doesn't have a climate agenda like Malcolm Turnbull, who lost his job as PM earlier this year. He's been labelled as a denier and the left absolutely despise him for not having a climate plan to tackle climate change.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/...-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video
I think it's safe to say that Morrison doesn't give a damn about the environment.
I don't think that's fair because Australia don't produce a heap of emissions compared to the USA and China. Not even 1% of the entire world's pollution. It's hilarious because China and India continue to produce masses of carbon dioxide whilst the Victorian government shuts down a coal-fired power plant
Australia is in the top 3 emitters per capita. Just because we don't produce a large amount overall doesn't mean we aren't producing a substantial amount of emissions.
 
Solution to climate change lets bring back the Turkic or Mongol Empires.

Lets all leave civilsation and live in a yurt with our horses.

Nomads of the world Unite!!!!
 
Solution to climate change lets bring back the Turkic or Mongol Empires.

Lets all leave civilsation and live in a yurt with our horses.

Nomads of the world Unite!!!!
Back then the total world population was probably between 300-400 million people, about 5% of what it is today. Would the collapse of civilization to such a figure be helpful in saving the world from climate change? Would that be a good thing? Do our highest values have anything to do with reality?
 
Back then the total world population was probably between 300-400 million people, about 5% of what it is today. Would the collapse of civilization to such a figure be helpful in saving the world from climate change? Would that be a good thing? Do our highest values have anything to do with reality?



I just want to do this
 
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IMO, the hard science underlying climate policy has been extremely narrowly based, and thus not really credible or worth taking terribly seriously. The glaring problem - pardon the pun - is the omission of solar forcing (other than radiation) from the models. Wonderfully, this situation is in the process of changing! As of the 2022 IPCC report (for the first time ever) solar particles including solar wind, flares, and CMEs, as well as galactic cosmic rays, are to be taken into the natural forcing model. Then, and only then, will we have a comprehensive and hopefully credible insight into climate. As these additional insights come into consideration, I feel climate science is going to undergo revelatory changes and improvements, and will ultimately begin to enable meaningful and constructive policy from regulatory agencies.

I understand your position and I can sympathize with it. It is exactly the kind of think I was complaining about 11 years ago in the post I linked.

I used to do very similar analysis to what the climate scientists are doing. In fact I attended lectures by colleagues who were working on that that exact subject because our disciplines were so closely related. My particular problem was the problem of mapping out spacecraft trajectories. I modeled complex unknown systems for the purpose of determining where a spacecraft was. I did this for two of the most complex systems in our solar system (I'll stop short of naming the space missions, but they're well known). I'll give you an example that I'm just going to draw out of a hat here.

The Saturn system is a very difficult system for determining where spacecraft are. You don't know where any of Saturn's moons are, and you don't know the rings very well. Saturn itself is pretty well known, but a lot of that is coupled with the moons, so teasing out the difference between the moons and the planet requires some time and data with which to differentiate the signals between the two. Gravity fields are far more complex than just "how massive is it" too. Various numbers of terms are used for various gravity fields, that goes for Saturn and saturn's moons as well. You don't have a great idea where the moons are, let alone how massive they are.

So if you have a spacecraft that is bouncing around the Saturnian system, it gets exposed to all of these effects, solar radiation, distributed ring mass, distributed mass within saturn, distributed masses within saturns' moons, whose gravity you do not know. And then perhaps that spacecraft goes near Titan and experiences atmospheric drag. You don't know the drag coefficient of your spacecraft because it wasn't tested in a wind tunnel. And of course the spacecraft itself is not particularly well known. You have outgassing and radiation forces from the craft, but also the thrusters (attitude control and main propulsion). And the thrusters degrade over time, and you don't know exactly how they'll do that.

All of these variables for this very complicated system go into a giant model, with uncertainties for all of them (sometimes very large uncertainties). And then you get just a few measurements. Range, and Doppler along a straight line with Earth, and also optical navigation images which are taken of the various bodies against a star field. If you can figure out where the spacecraft is, you can use images of the moons to help determine where they are. Not a lot of measurements, and those measurements can be incestuous, constantly measuring the same thing but never giving you insight to bring some other kind of uncertainty down.

You accumulate data and beat the uncertainties down, slowly, and refine your model. And that's how you do a flyby to within a few dozen or so kilometers of the surface of a moon without trashing your multi-billion dollar space mission.

This is exactly the kind of model that the climate scientists use. They have many variables, modeled to various levels of fidelity, and with differing uncertainty, sometimes drastically different. It is the same math, the same underlying problem, but one which can benefit from lots of different kinds of data. They add data from many different kinds of sources, and go back as far in time as they can trust (with a healthy dose of uncertainty of course) and try to beat down their unknowns. The models they have been using have been increasing in fidelity rapidly over the last decade (and the decade before).

Your complaint about modeling solar flux, cosmic rays, etc. is a valid one. And it's a hard problem, but rest assured it is one they are acutely aware of and that they work on. The thing is, the entire model is a tuned system. Tuned by decades of data. You can add a variable in and see all of the ways that it soaks up a signal from something else, and see whether or not it "fits". I did this all the time. We even had models for variables that were entirely for soaking up missing signals, and when those started stepping out of line, you knew something was wrong with your model. You could then look for higher fidelity terms that allowed the soak-up terms to settle back down. This process is how the model grows in complexity. Something doesn't fit right, something moves by 3 sigma, soak-up terms start to move in a big way and indicate that something is wrong, something is not modeled properly.

The introduction of the types of functions you're referring to will allow the model to adjust certain kinds of signals, but not others - because there is underlying physics for how they must necessarily interact with Earth. The more mature your model is, the more you understand whether these terms are even capable of moving or driving the net result. It can become very apparent, very quickly, that you simply cannot model the system properly without taking into account CO2.

What climate scientists have been doing over the last decade is moving toward a convergent model that has been shown to be accurate against the data we had, and also accurately predict future data. This is the acid test for modeling of systems like this - how well does it predict the future. That's what I was looking for 11 years ago, and it has been demonstrated. This scientific field is new, but it has been growing rapidly and it grows on the well-understood mathematical underpinnings of estimation theory. I'm not saying they have this thing locked down to within tiny uncertainties, but I have become convinced that they at least know what they're doing well enough to reach some conclusions. The conclusion is that they simply cannot fit the data without human-caused greenhouse gas warming.
 
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I understand your position and I can sympathize with it. It is exactly the kind of think I was complaining about 11 years ago in the post I linked.

I used to do very similar analysis to what the climate scientists are doing. In fact I attended lectures by colleagues who were working on that that exact subject because our disciplines were so closely related. My particular problem was the problem of mapping out spacecraft trajectories. I modeled complex unknown systems for the purpose of determining where a spacecraft was. I did this for two of the most complex systems in our solar system (I'll stop short of naming the space missions, but they're well known). I'll give you an example that I'm just going to draw out of a hat here.

The Saturn system is a very difficult system for determining where spacecraft are. You don't know where any of Saturn's moons are, and you don't know the rings very well. Saturn itself is pretty well known, but a lot of that is coupled with the moons, so teasing out the difference between the moons and the planet requires some time and data with which to differentiate the signals between the two. Gravity fields are far more complex than just "how massive is it" too. Various numbers of terms are used for various gravity fields, that goes for Saturn and saturn's moons as well. You don't have a great idea where the moons are, let alone how massive they are.

So if you have a spacecraft that is bouncing around the Saturnian system, it gets exposed to all of these effects, solar radiation, distributed ring mass, distributed mass within saturn, distributed masses within saturns' moons, whose gravity you do not know. And then perhaps that spacecraft goes near Titan and experiences atmospheric drag. You don't know the drag coefficient of your spacecraft because it wasn't tested in a wind tunnel. And of course the spacecraft itself is not particularly well known. You have outgassing and radiation forces from the craft, but also the thrusters (attitude control and main propulsion). And the thrusters degrade over time, and you don't know exactly how they'll do that.

All of these variables for this very complicated system go into a giant model, with uncertainties for all of them (sometimes very large uncertainties). And then you get just a few measurements. Range, and Doppler along a straight line with Earth, and also optical navigation images which are taken of the various bodies against a star field. If you can figure out where the spacecraft is, you can use images of the moons to help determine where they are. Not a lot of measurements, and those measurements can be incestuous, constantly measuring the same thing but never giving you insight to bring some other kind of uncertainty down.

You accumulate data and beat the uncertainties down, slowly, and refine your model. And that's how you do a flyby to within a few dozen or so kilometers of the surface of a moon without trashing your multi-billion dollar space mission.

This is exactly the kind of model that the climate scientists use. They have many variables, modeled to various levels of fidelity, and with differing uncertainty, sometimes drastically different. It is the same math, the same underlying problem, but one which can benefit from lots of different kinds of data. They add data from many different kinds of sources, and go back as far in time as they can trust (with a healthy dose of uncertainty of course) and try to beat down their unknowns. The models they have been using have been increasing in fidelity rapidly over the last decade (and the decade before).

Your complaint about modeling solar flux, cosmic rays, etc. is a valid one. And it's a hard problem, but rest assured it is one they are acutely aware of and that they work on. The thing is, the entire model is a tuned system. Tuned by decades of data. You can add a variable in and see all of the ways that it soaks up a signal from something else, and see whether or not it "fits". I did this all the time. We even had models for variables that were entirely for soaking up missing signals, and when those started stepping out of line, you knew something was wrong with your model. You could then look for higher fidelity terms that allowed the soak-up terms to settle back down. This process is how the model grows in complexity. Something doesn't fit right, something moves by 3 sigma, soak-up terms start to move in a big way and indicate that something is wrong, something is not modeled properly.

The introduction of the types of functions you're referring to will allow the model to adjust certain kinds of signals, but not others - because there is underlying physics for how they must necessarily interact with Earth. The more mature your model is, the more you understand whether these terms are even capable of moving or driving the net result. It can become very apparent, very quickly, that you simply cannot model the system properly without taking into account CO2.

What climate scientists have been doing over the last decade is moving toward a convergent model that has been shown to be accurate against the data we had, and also accurately predict future data. This is the acid test for modeling of systems like this - how well does it predict the future. That's what I was looking for 11 years ago, and it has been demonstrated. This scientific field is new, but it has been growing rapidly and it grows on the well-understood mathematical underpinnings of estimation theory. I'm not saying they have this thing locked down to within tiny uncertainties, but I have become convinced that they at least know what they're doing well enough to reach some conclusions. The conclusion is that they simply cannot fit the data without human-caused greenhouse gas warming.
I have no doubt humans have affected climate. But I'm looking forward to our models taking solar and cosmic forcing - particularly the cycles beyond that of 11 years - into the equations. Another interesting set of variables is Earth's now increasingly rapidly weakening magnetic field and wandering poles. Cosmic ray flux increases with declining magnetic field strength, and is thought to increase cloud nucleation which in turn affects albedo, insolation and precipitation.
 
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