What could Rockstar Games of today teach Polyphony about designing a compelling game?

  • Thread starter dabz343
  • 78 comments
  • 4,511 views
RIght, there is somewhat of a story going on in the F1 franchise...and agree it's pretty bad, but is GT7's Cafe any better?

I think there could be more of a story, or more of a journey through an informative and challenging progression system, or something completely different that enhances the enjoyment of racing. Personally, I think many of us players can't imagine something that has not been already done, but as a developer, I think it makes sense to look around to your industry peers and ask some tough questions about how to improve your product.

After searching a bit more to see if there are any unique/different takes on racing, I found what some say is a hidden gem called The Art of Rally. I will be playing this soon, as the historical side and the soundtrack are appealing, and the visual style though it is a departure from the norm, I can appreciate the comic book vibe.


If there would be a racing game like The Art Of Rally for historic racing cars (1960ies until 1980ies), I would probably stop playing GT7...
The problem ist that I don't like drifting, so a rally game is not perfect for me...but I will give it a try anyway, since I really like its graphic style and the general idea of it...

Has anybody played it here on a PS4 ?

GTA Online is the close to being like hell on earth, have you actually tried playing on a public lobby for more than 5 minutes without being murdered by a lime green armoured car or a MKII Oppressor?? (this is a jet engined flying motorcycle with homing rockets for you who not played GTA Online..)

Pretty much everyone dresses up in tactical outfits and a face mask ... all GTA has done was expose how broken today's gaming community really is ...

Talk about The lost & the Damned ...
You are spot on...there are too many idiots in the gaming world to make online open world games fun...at least for me

RDR 2 in singe player mode ist the best game I have ever played, but the online version is a piece of crap, at least in my opinion...not because of the content or the micro transactions, but because of the community and the highly toxic attitudes of some of the players...even if it just 10-20% of the players who are like that and while there is also a safe game play mode where griefers can't attck you, this has ruined my online experience of RDR2 forever and I'll never play any Rockstar online game again because of that...
 
When it comes to a story, I don't think GT needs one. As we progress through the game, we all kind of make our own. I don't think anyone wants a GT story mode analogous to what we get in GTA
I see the point that most have made about a story, but still believe that a good story driven single player campaign could really set GT apart. In my mind, this campaign doesn't take over the entire game, rather like the current Cafe menus, get's players into a certain kind of playing rhythm, with timed license tests, themed missions, et., that showcase motorsport and car culture in a way that really has not been done yet. Sophy could play a prominent role, especially if it was customized for certain missions/challenges. One way is to think of Sophy as bosses players must dethrone to get to the next significant level. Another is functioning as a personal coach.
Where the GTAO does well from gameplay progression is how you move to bigger and better things. Cars, weapons, properties. There are different avenues to each and you don't have to do them all.
Exactly, while learning how to tell a better story may be a stretch, the way Rockstar, and others, handle the progression is certainly an interesting game strategy/mechanics to investigate for the racing genre.
In my opinion, I think one of GT7's weaknesses has been how we progress through the game. Everything tied up in Cafe menus and Collector levels.
Agree, I much prefer the tried and true formula of starting out with barely enough cash to race a Miata in a Sunday Cup. But the problem is, this formula is now old and dull. If it could be given a fresh coat of paint and a little HP with some brakes/tires...but sadly, no one seems to be doing anything.

On the other hand, when you look at how GT7 is designing the Sport feature, there is certainly a progression model that works because it reflects real life. DR and SR, dailies, matchmaking, penalties, rankings, and championships. If you are a budding racer, then GT7 does a good job at proving the platform for you to progress at the pace you feel comfortable.

I wish they would also take equal care of their single player campaign/content because there are so many players that play solo -- for many good reasons I might add.
If there would be a racing game like The Art Of Rally for historic racing cars (1960ies until 1980ies), I would probably stop playing GT7...
Yep, I suspect there are many players like you/us that want things that GT currently doesn't not have. To be fair to PD, I think it is unreasonable to ask them to develop an all-in-one game. But, I do think they should look around to see what other games are popular and ask why.
 
Yep, I suspect there are many players like you/us that want things that GT currently doesn't not have. To be fair to PD, I think it is unreasonable to ask them to develop an all-in-one game. But, I do think they should look around to see what other games are popular and ask why.
I basically like GT7 as it is well enough to play it on an almost daily basis(although there are quite a few things that could be done better)...and I don't think, they will change a lot in the major gameplay loop...

But a perfect racing game for my personal taste(that is quite off-mainstream) would look different in many aspects ;)
 
Last edited:
So, aside from the original, weird placement... this whole thing, in both versions of the thread, is baffling.

Given that we're apparently not talking about features, methods, environments, or anything else actually contained in Rockstar's more famous RDR/GTA titles, exactly what expertise does Rockstar have (the forgotten Midnight Club aside) that could possibly inform Polyphony Digital on a direction of a future Gran Turismo?


Is it just about player progression (which, last time I played a GTA game, was just about being able to double your health and armour maximums; not exactly the last word in depth) or a "story" in which you complete one task to gain access to other tasks? In which case, why Rockstar specifically? Why not Bethesda, which does far more player progression (not that it's applicable; who wants five levels in steering and the Golden Wheel perk in a GT game?)?

It's just not something Rockstar has really done well in GTA games and I don't think the mechanism of "do this mission/objective then you can do these other ones" itself is what's made GTA popular; the framing of the story within a relatively consistent lore, plus the freedom to go wherever and do whatever, with guns, is what made GTA popular. That and all the nob jokes. It's something just not applicable to GT generally, except maybe Gruppe Sechs, Sprunk, and Cluckin' Bell trackside ads?


In any case GT has always had player progression and a "story", even through to GTS (yes, even GTS had things you had to unlock by doing earlier things) and GT7 - although it's a good deal more linear now - wherein advanced events were not accessible before completing less advanced ones. I mean, GT5 really doubled-down on player progression, locking cars behind advancing player levels and requiring XP - like guns in Call of Duty - and it was awful, and thankfully abandoned.

What GT needs is a more web-like career, where you have to reach certain checkpoints in order to do a few things (not too many, like in GTS where you unlock Ruby and then have access to every single Ruby race at once; but not too few like GT7 where you unlock Deep Forest and have access to three new races) - only some of which are then required to reach the next checkpoint.

Ideally there'd be a few routes from "start" to "finish", rather than a single "main quest" path like in GTA/FO/TES titles. It's really not hard to imagine how this could manifest in a motorsport context:starting in autocross/clubman races, taking a path through various (non-gated) specialisms to end on your preferred choice of top-level sports cars, top-level prototypes, top-level GTs, etc., with a whole bunch of "side quests" invitational events you can do for more money/parts/whatever.
 
What GT needs is a more web-like career, where you have to reach certain checkpoints in order to do a few things
Can you elaborate on what you call a web-like career?
starting in autocross/clubman races, taking a path through various (non-gated) specialisms to end on your preferred choice of top-level sports cars, top-level prototypes, top-level GTs, etc.
Different points of entry for players, with different journeys to various destinations? Is this what you are referring to?

So, aside from the original, weird placement... this whole thing, in both versions of the thread, is baffling.

Given that we're apparently not talking about features, methods, environments, or anything else actually contained in Rockstar's more famous RDR/GTA titles, exactly what expertise does Rockstar have (the forgotten Midnight Club aside) that could possibly inform Polyphony Digital on a direction of a future Gran Turismo?
Just because this topic may be baffling to you and you see no point of having this thread does not mean that others can differ and choose to participate if the so choose. So let's get that straight.

Also, the way you have expressed your opinion comes off as brash and unappreciative that others are discussing something you think has no/little value. I would think that a forum such as GTP would welcome voices of all kinds, even if they do not particularly find some topics worthy. Now, I may not be doing a fair job interpreting your post, so I will give you an opportunity to clear things up.
 
Just because this topic may be baffling to you and you see no point of having this thread does not mean that others can differ and choose to participate if the so choose. So let's get that straight.

Also, the way you have expressed your opinion comes off as brash and unappreciative that others are discussing something you think has no/little value. I would think that a forum such as GTP would welcome voices of all kinds, even if they do not particularly find some topics worthy. Now, I may not be doing a fair job interpreting your post, so I will give you an opportunity to clear things up.
Lol. Try clearing your own topic up first.

It's very difficult to judge the value or worth of a topic if it's sufficiently unclear that the majority of responders (across both versions of the thread - one of which even mentioned GT) don't know what you’re actually talking about.


What do you think PD can learn from Rockstar? Surely you must have an idea in order to bring the comparison repeatedly and aggressively?

Maybe if you were to properly define that, rather than being so nebulous about it, people might be able to discuss it in the "right" way for you.
 
Lol. Try clearing your own topic up first.

It's very difficult to judge the value or worth of a topic if it's sufficiently unclear that the majority of responders (across both versions of the thread - one of which even mentioned GT) don't know what you’re actually talking about.


What do you think PD can learn from Rockstar? Surely you must have an idea in order to bring the comparison repeatedly and aggressively?

Maybe if you were to properly define that, rather than being so nebulous about it, people might be able to discuss it in the "right" way for you.
Thanks, I think it is clear now.
 
Lol. Try clearing your own topic up first.

It's very difficult to judge the value or worth of a topic if it's sufficiently unclear that the majority of responders (across both versions of the thread - one of which even mentioned GT) don't know what you’re actually talking about.


What do you think PD can learn from Rockstar? Surely you must have an idea in order to bring the comparison repeatedly and aggressively?

Maybe if you were to properly define that, rather than being so nebulous about it, people might be able to discuss it in the "right" way for you.

I was going to post the below earlier, but like your first and second question to the op, that’s what may need to be clarified.

Anyway, here goes nothing:

Well, the thing is, Gran Turismo is designed to bring people together and create those stories.

I understand there’s no Story Mode like TOCA games. This particular game is trying to inform new players about automobiles.

The only way I can see Polyphony Digital doing a story mode, is to either rehash GT Academy or play as Kazunori Yamauchi and experience his list of cars from his first to current rides. The thing with what I mentioned, we have Kaz’ cars in the franchise. Which, brings me back to my first sentence. Players create their own stories by playing the game.

It’s like creating a story playing with Matchbox cars or slot cars or radio controlled cars. I’m not sure Rockstar could show PD how to create a story that PD wouldn’t know how to create for the Gran Turismo series.
 
Well, the thing is, Gran Turismo is designed to bring people together and create those stories.
I like this perspective, especially the 'create their own stories' idea. How can PD build on this? The one thing that comes to mind is, I have created my own custom league of cars from different eras and have been running fictitious championships. It wasn't my original idea, the guys in the Custom Races thread provided that. But, there is a story component that I enjoy and it certainly enhances gameplay -- especially if I'm after replicating historic data with others.

Now, while the payoff has been worthwhile, it has been a painful experience acquiring, tuning and balancing all the cars so that a competitive season could be made, and I doubt most players just don't have the time. But building on you thought about creating our own stories, could PD imagine new ways for players to have access to design features that promote players to enjoy find their own story?
The only way I can see Polyphony Digital doing a story mode, is to either rehash GT Academy
The Academy concept could work really well, has anyone tried this as a game feature preciously?
 
Rockstar ability to make immersive open world, characters, story etc is a no match to anyone.

Online, well that's another story. It has only one purpose and that is to make as much money as it can and if that means adding flying bikes the'll add them.

I guess PD is leaning towards the latter but is still far from it.

The Oppressor MKII is great (for getting between places quickly. I don't use is to grief players)
 
I like this perspective, especially the 'create their own stories' idea. How can PD build on this? The one thing that comes to mind is, I have created my own custom league of cars from different eras and have been running fictitious championships. It wasn't my original idea, the guys in the Custom Races thread provided that. But, there is a story component that I enjoy and it certainly enhances gameplay -- especially if I'm after replicating historic data with others.

Now, while the payoff has been worthwhile, it has been a painful experience acquiring, tuning and balancing all the cars so that a competitive season could be made, and I doubt most players just don't have the time. But building on you thought about creating our own stories, could PD imagine new ways for players to have access to design features that promote players to enjoy find their own story?

The Academy concept could work really well, has anyone tried this as a game feature preciously?
The Codemasters TOCA Driver and Grid Legend games, I mentioned before, have done a story mode from varying race disciplines.

In Assetto Corsa Competizione, the career mode have the player “join” the Lamborghini Youngster
programme. A real racing driver gives the video brief before beginning. It’s nearly a story.
 
The Codemasters TOCA Driver and Grid Legend games, I mentioned before, have done a story mode from varying race disciplines.

In Assetto Corsa Competizione, the career mode have the player “join” the Lamborghini Youngster
programme. A real racing driver gives the video brief before beginning. It’s nearly a story.
Are any of the mentioned done well in your view? Is there one you would recommend for me to check out?
 
I'm not sure there's anything Rockstar could teach Polyphony given one is the leader in open-world design w/ a Hollywood story flowing through it & one is premier developer in racing where a story is unnecessary.

The only thing I could see the two sharing notes on is their attention to detail in their respective worlds, but Polyphony is already at Rockstar's tier in that category there when it comes to their car models. Both developers are also known for their development time in doing so. I think they're just too different to learn much from each other. They're both pretty much industry leaders in their own genres, GTA is just a much broader-appealing title.

It's an interesting thought, though if you can put multiplayer aspects aside.
 
Last edited:
They're both pretty much industry leaders in their own genres, GTA is just a much broader-appealing title.
The reason I'm asking a very open-ended question about what PD could learn is, GTA/Red Dead and others by Rockstar have something that gamers seem to flock to over and over again. I haven't honed into what the formula is because like I said, I only played Red Dead 2, but thought it might be interesting to reach out to the community here to see if more experienced gamers had any thoughts on how GT could evolve.

I think my motivation to look at Rockstar for some inspiration also stems significantly from the fact that GT7's Cafe menus are so lifeless. It's like PD sat around and conceived the most convenient system for them to drip feed us with updates. Does PD actually think players are anticipating the arrival of another Menu?

It's an interesting thought, though if you can put multiplayer aspects aside.
Indeed, if your not baffled by it.
 
The reason I'm asking a very open-ended question about what PD could learn is, GTA/Red Dead and others by Rockstar have something that gamers seem to flock to over and over again. I haven't honed into what the formula is because like I said, I only played Red Dead 2, but thought it might be interesting to reach out to the community here to see if more experienced gamers had any thoughts on how GT could evolve.

I think my motivation to look at Rockstar for some inspiration also stems significantly from the fact that GT7's Cafe menus are so lifeless. It's like PD sat around and conceived the most convenient system for them to drip feed us with updates. Does PD actually think players are anticipating the arrival of another Menu?


Indeed, if your not baffled by it.
It's just how Rockstar develops & details its open world that keeps people coming back. They do a solid job at making their worlds feel alive & that's by building out thousands & thousands of unique animations for NPCs to do and anticipating what players will do in return.

It would take a much more experience GT player than I to really pinpoint where GT can evolve, but as a GTA player, I'm also not sure where Polyphony can take notes from, either. Both developers are so detailed-oriented in their respective way, yet their approach to their genres are vastly different. I do know the one area the two cross paths is not exactly one you'd probably want Rockstar's input & the areas that Rockstar exceeds in isn't going to feel at home in GT.

Like I said, it would take a player who has way more time developed in GT (like perhaps yourself) than I to give a better view on where GT can evolve, I'm just not sure where Rockstar could offer that in a way that feels natural.
 
I think if you were to apply the GTA formula to a racing/driving game, you end up with Fast & Furious (the later films are basically your average GTA Online lobby).

Narratively speaking, a rookie team navigating a parody of the corrupt shenanigans under the FIA umbrella (or just organized racing in general, there's plenty of real world examples to draw on) could be quite interesting but will probably get the studio blacklisted very quickly.
 
Last edited:
They do a solid job at making their worlds feel alive & that's by building out thousands & thousands of unique animations for NPCs to do and anticipating what players will do in return.
I agree that the sense of teleporting into a world is kind of magical and Red Dead 2 definitely did that for me, which was a huge surprise. And I remember playing the original GT and feeling the same because in hindsight, PD designed something that was different and engrossing from all others -- Gran Turismo was the first ever driver's RPG. But, here we are with GT7 and the Cafe? Really?

the areas that Rockstar exceeds in isn't going to feel at home in GT.
I'm just not sure where Rockstar could offer that in a way that feels natural.
Again agree, direct translations, copy & paste tactics will not work. It will feel disjointed, contrived, artificial, and developers should stay very clear of mimicking others' successes and focus on developing their own mojo...gamers are not stupid, quite the contrary.

I think if you were to apply the GTA formula to a racing/driving game, you end up with Fast & Furious (the later films are basically your average GTA Online lobby)
Can't find fault with your point, but I suspect we all agree that adopting someone else's formula directly may not be the best way to go about improving your product. It's like what I said before about musician listening to what is going on in other genres so that when it comes to crafting their own sound, they understand what the audience appreciates and why.

This approach may not be how you may want to manifest your own personal artistry and craft, but if you want commercial success, then you will need to look beyond your immediate surrounding and take a hard comparative look at what people are buying.
 
The Codemasters TOCA Driver and Grid Legend games, I mentioned before, have done a story mode from varying race disciplines.

In Assetto Corsa Competizione, the career mode have the player “join” the Lamborghini Youngster
programme. A real racing driver gives the video brief before beginning. It’s nearly a story.
The story in Supercars/TOCA 2 was fun. (I forgot it was labelled differently depending on where you were)
 
Last edited:
Rockstar, not so much.

Those guys who are creating a procedurally generated world the size of earth(no man’s sky’s sequel). That might be interesting.
 
Nothing, I don't think. Rockstar's script writing is heavily based on existing works put into video game form so they're not exactly unique. And the GTA franchise is literally a parody so its writing is ridiculous on purpose.

If you're looking for collabs to create a good GT story mode you'll need to look at Kojima, or Naughty Dog, BioWare, etc.
 
Can you elaborate on what you call a web-like career?
You didn't ask me, but I can. Gran Turismo 2 is web-like. You pick a starting point; one of dozens of suitable first cars, and work your way across the game as directly or tangentially as you choose. GT1-5 are varying degrees of webby, GT6 and 7 (and the new Forza Motorsport) have straight-line careers with sprinkles. There is only one path, with optional dots on the side.

Regarding the original question, it's already been said better above, but Rockstar already taught PD something about game design in 2013: that you could get away with selling credits to the player.
 
Not sure an attempt to learn and implement a better story would work with the closed circuit racing genre.

It'd likely come off as cheesy/naff, and whilst more casual players may enjoy it, it'd probably just serve to annoy the more serious/hard-core crowd.

A little like how films based on cars rarely really hit the spot and impress much, or at all.

Perhaps there are some things to be learnt, but I'd be more apprehensive if pd announced a more fleshed out story mode for gt8. Most the long term players want a quality driving experience first and fore most. I'd imagine pd do consider improvements, but decide the appetite isn't there on a wider scale, to add a fleshed out story thing to a somewhat serious racer.

But as you'd say, devs should always be studying others work, to see if anything can be used to inspire/improve their own products.

Doesn't bother me, but others have mentioned perhaps having a no helmet option for certain cars, events, with choice of more casual clothes. Maybe an option to pick a passenger/girlfriend/boyfriend/something in between to sit beside you as yiu cruise around grand valley in a convertible;)
 
Last edited:
Imagine playing RDR2 (a fantastic game imo), but to get to a particular area on the map you had to play the same mission 30 times to unlock it, and it was a really tedious mission unless you paid real money to open that area instantly. Imagine how awful RDR2 would be, that's GT7. What I'm trying to say Is the GT franchise does not need a story it just needs to open up its world, and to do this it needs to change the dreadful economy in the game. ( I'm talking about the single player experience). I would say 40 hours play to get all the cars, then have a mixture of short and endurance races against sophy using all the different classes. The cafe thing and music rally are just terrible and hopefully they ditch these for GT8. If it wasn't for the VR update I would of skipped 7 as I did with 6.
 
I’ve got it!

Hand gestures in vr!

I bet rockstar could help dig out all of the cultural gems
 
Last edited:
I think I’ve got it. Hear me out.
A Gran Turismo video game based on the Gran Turismo movie! A racing game with a Hollywood caliber story!
 
You didn't ask me, but I can. Gran Turismo 2 is web-like. You pick a starting point; one of dozens of suitable first cars, and work your way across the game as directly or tangentially as you choose. GT1-5 are varying degrees of webby, GT6 and 7 (and the new Forza Motorsport) have straight-line careers with sprinkles. There is only one path, with optional dots on the side.
Yep, pretty much this. GT5 is of course where it all went wrong :lol:

It's difficult to resolved the two things GT wants now - progressively unlocking circuits (GTS/GT7) and teaching players about cars (GT7) - with a web-like career, but it's certainly doable.

Here's my quick'n'dirty overview:

1702219468997.png


By way of explanation here:

  • Without any progress at all:
    • There's five basic Menu Books that introduce you to various things core to the game
    • ~20 races at three-to-six beginner circuits (one/two in each region) covering Sunday Cup and Sunday Cup Classic-type races or track days; low powered cars sub-400PP. These are not linked to the career at all.
    • You must complete your B Licence and Book 5 to advance to...
  • Pathway Choice 1 which:
    • Gives you the option of choosing your preferred route: GT, Sports Car, Prototype, Open-Wheel (and whatever else)
    • Each path has a handful of relevant Menu Books (let's say... three), each unlocking a race series at that level
    • At this stage they are national level races (not necessarily requiring just one country's tracks...) at an amateur grade, up to 500PP or so.
    • Complete a minimum number (say... three again, accounting for updates) the Menu Books to advance to Licence A which unlocks...
  • Pathway Choice 2 which:
    • Allows you to switch paths or remain on the same one.
    • Same format again, unlocking more series, but at a higher level - more races across more tracks within the region.
    • Completing any one path grants a Bronze Trophy, unlocks Licence IA, and advances you to...
  • Pathway Choice 3 which:
    • Again allows you to switch or not.
    • Much higher level races again, unlocking more series, taking place at tracks across the globe
    • Completing any one path grants a Silver Trophy, unlocks Licence S, and advances you to...
  • Pathway Choice 4, the final choice, which:
    • Gives you one last chance to switch if you wish
    • Longest and hardest races, endurance level (optional to shorten the race time with higher rates of wear/weather, no less than 30 min)
    • Awards one Gold Trophy no matter which path and ending movie for completion
    • All tracks unlocked at this point
  • Players may then (and let's say at any point too) go back and attempt other pathways, with the relevant menu books, to mop up the trophies (licences no longer required)
  • Updates can add more races/series and Menu Books into each section (as only [x] are required to advance this adds options rather than more requirements), as well as optional Menu Books beyond the time line if necessary.

That's just my "top of the head" design anyway.
 
Last edited:
Yep, pretty much this. GT5 is of course where it all went wrong :lol:

It's difficult to resolved the two things GT wants now - progressively unlocking circuits (GTS/GT7) and teaching players about cars (GT7) - with a web-like career, but it's certainly doable.

Here's my quick'n'dirty overview:

View attachment 1310594

By way of explanation here:


  • Without any progress at all:
    • There's five basic Menu Books that introduce you to various things core to the game
    • ~20 races at three-to-six beginner circuits (one/two in each region) covering Sunday Cup and Sunday Cup Classic-type races or track days; low powered cars sub-400PP. These are not linked to the career at all.
    • You must complete your B Licence and Book 5 to advance to...
  • Pathway Choice 1 which:
    • Gives you the option of choosing your preferred route: GT, Sports Car, Prototype, Open-Wheel (and whatever else)
    • Each path has a handful of relevant Menu Books (let's say... three), each unlocking a race series at that level
    • At this stage they are national level races (not necessarily requiring just one country's tracks...) at an amateur grade, up to 500PP or so.
    • Complete a minimum number (say... three again, accounting for updates) the Menu Books to advance to Licence A which unlocks...
  • Pathway Choice 2 which:
    • Allows you to switch paths or remain on the same one.
    • Same format again, unlocking more series, but at a higher level - more races across more tracks within the region.
    • Completing any one path grants a Bronze Trophy, unlocks Licence IA, and advances you to...
  • Pathway Choice 3 which:
    • Again allows you to switch or not.
    • Much higher level races again, unlocking more series, taking place at tracks across the globe
    • Completing any one path grants a Silver Trophy, unlocks Licence S, and advances you to...
  • Pathway Choice 4, the final choice, which:
    • Gives you one last chance to switch if you wish
    • Longest and hardest races, endurance level (optional to shorten the race time with higher rates of wear/weather, no less than 30 min)
    • Awards one Gold Trophy no matter which path and ending movie for completion
    • All tracks unlocked at this point
  • Players may then go back and attempt other pathways, with the relevant menu books, to mop up the trophies (licences no longer required)
  • Updates can add more races/series and Menu Books into each section (as only [x] are required to advance this adds options rather than more requirements), as well as optional Menu Books beyond the time line if necessary.

That's just my "top of the head" design anyway.
You've missed out where Rockstar would have you punching a horse about menu book 4.
 
Back