What would you define as a CLEAN RACE?

[TouringBubble]

Very simply, it is the faster driver's responsibility to pass cleanly and safely.

Many drivers don't understand general racing rules and also many drive like they are against CPU opponents. They will brake super late and attempt to pass in dangerous areas. That's not clean racing.

95% of the time, if everyone is following the basic driving rules, you should finish a race without being bumped by another driver ... or in a sim environment ... without being run off the course or spun. That is clean racing.

Try to pass too aggressively - your fault
Try to pass in a narrow area of the track - your fault
Follow too closely and rear-end a driver who brakes early - your fault
Try to pass in a corner too fast and understeer and push the other driver off course - your fault
Late brake and miss your turn in and collide with another driver - your fault
Hit a stalled/spun car on course - your fault
Alter your line to let a faster driver pass before a passing move is attempted and he hits you - your fault (added clarity here. The slow driver should keep their line until a passing move is attempted, at which point they should react and give adequate passing room.)

Those are some basic clean racing rules. Hope that helps.

 

[GTlondoner]

Hypothetical situation.

You are third, trailing second, in the laterace. Its Monza, and the braking point is the 200 marker. The second place car you're trailing is in full brake lock with massive front bias at the 500 marker.

You could lift, pull out of line, blow the chicane entry, and likely your chance at the race, worse if you blow the chicane, come up in front of the driver, and take both of you out. Or you could hold your line and drive through him, suffering a dent in your front bumper.

Sometimes its not avoidable. Blame can't be assessed for simply following a driver and hitting them.

Thank you someone understands where i'm coming from
this "your following me so its your fault" attitude is bull.

I won't try to hit someone if they brake to hard and to early in front of me
ill try pull to take the outside line and pray they turn in before i touch them
ill even turn on to the grass an mess my whole race just trying not to touch someone.

I even brake 3-4 car lengths early in a heavy braking zone
take a smoother line get on the power earlier an come out the corner closer than we went in.

point is we're racing we all want to win and you have to get close to pass,
Most slower drivers wont leave anyone room cause they know they wont have a chance if they let someone pass

And this their car might not be as good as yours excuse LOL
what if the car in front has better braking and they stamp on the brakes
when your right behind getting close to make a pass

 

[jjaisli]

It was all going well until i saw this .......


If a driver wants to retire from a race, the driver concerned must not exit the race. The driver must find a position on the track where the driver will not endanger other drivers, park their car by pressing "start" and wait for the race to end. Keep in mind that your car may start to move when the start button is pressed. Place your car on a position where this movement won't cause any problems for drivers who are still racing.

Whoever thought that up, is in my opinion is nothing more than a control freak

In fairness, some of the rules were written for specific reasons, such as league points or preventing host transfer and were specific for Prologue. I don't treat it as holy gospel but more as a general guideline.

And frankly, it's useless in public lobbies. Or any lobby unless everybody understands the rules and agrees to abide by them BEFORE the race starts. For the most part, it's general common sense. I would be happy if everybody just drove if they were real drivers driving real cars. If people would put themselves in that frame of mind, we'd have a lot less crazy business online.

But hey, it's a free for all out there. Some people want to play like it's motorstorm. And they do. But this is also why I like the lobby system and don't miss player matching.

 

[Shinzah]

Follow too closely and rear-end a driver who brakes early - your fault
Try to pass in a corner too fast and understeer and push the other driver off course - your fault
Late brake and miss your turn in and collide with another driver - your fault

Attempt to "pull aside" to let a faster driver pass and he hits you - your fault

Those are some basic clean racing rules. Hope that helps.

All of the listed are situational. You can't tell me with a straight face your not guilty of any of this, ever.

These happen almost every race in real motorsport, and the majority of them aren't penalized offenses. Especially the last one. If you pulled aside to let a driver pass, and he hits you, depending on if

a) You pulled aside to the right the previous time, now you pull to the left - Your Fault
b) You pulled to the left again but cross the racing line - Trailing drivers fault


Cooking a corner and undsteering into a driver is arguable, since if he had checked his mirrors, an incident is unlikely to occur.

Trailing a driver who brakes early I will defend to my death. I've lost many races because of this taking both of us out, and if I hit him, because he locked up a mile before the corner while I was trailing, it might go under review but I doubt this would be a flagged offense in real motorsport.


If Kobayashi drove like this, F1 would suck.

 

[Shinzah]

Thank you someone understands where i'm coming from
this "your following me so its your fault" attitude is bull.

I won't try to hit someone if they brake to hard and to early in front of me
ill try pull to take the outside line and pray they turn in before i touch them
ill even turn on to the grass an mess my whole race just trying not to touch someone.

I even brake 3-4 car lengths early in a heavy braking zone
take a smoother line get on the power earlier an come out the corner closer than we went in.

I follow the endurance line as opposed to the aggressive line, it sounds like you do too. Easy on the tires, and more consistent then the open wheel/sprint style line.

Better for longer races. Easier to adapt to changing circumstance.

However, moving to the outside only works if the driver is not in the driving line. As soon as a driver in the driving line makes a mistake, any effects resulting become more blame on the driver who made the initial error.

In my example the driver is in the outside racing line which is the optimal turn in for the chicane. If the driver locked up early and moved to the inside (which would be proper ettiquette, per any driver meeting ive ever been a part of) there would be no incident. However, there aren't many drivers who follow proper ettiquette in a casual race.

point is we're racing we all want to win and you have to get close to pass,
Most slower drivers wont leave anyone room cause they know they wont have a chance if they let someone pass

And this their car might not be as good as yours excuse LOL
what if the car in front has better braking and they stamp on the brakes
when your right behind getting close to make a pass

No driver in their right mind will put an opportunity to improve position behind someone elses mistake, unless it is a ridiculously dangerous venture that could have consequences.

If the lead driver makes a mistake, the trailing driver has the responsibility to try and avoid conflict, if conflict is unavoidable, the ruling goes in favour of the trailing driver. This was the whole basis for avoidable contact and defensive driving rules in all road-racing based motorsports.

 

[TouringBubble]

All of the listed are situational. You can't tell me with a straight face your not guilty of any of this, ever.

These happen almost every race in real motorsport, and the majority of them aren't penalized offenses. Especially the last one. If you pulled aside to let a driver pass, and he hits you, depending on if

a) You pulled aside to the right the previous time, now you pull to the left - Your Fault
b) You pulled to the left again but cross the racing line - Trailing drivers fault


Cooking a corner and undsteering into a driver is arguable, since if he had checked his mirrors, an incident is unlikely to occur.

Trailing a driver who brakes early I will defend to my death. I've lost many races because of this taking both of us out, and if I hit him, because he locked up a mile before the corner while I was trailing, it might go under review but I doubt this would be a flagged offense in real motorsport.


If Kobayashi drove like this, F1 would suck.

I didn't say I was never guilty of it or that I agreed with it specifically ... just stating that in real motorsports these are general rules, and are adopted for sim racing.

You are correct though ... at the pro level these are often looked at as "racing incidents" and no fault is given. This is becasue most drivers are at the same level.

About the driver pulling aside to let someone pass, that happened in the 2010 F1 season and caused Webber to have a HUGE crash.



The car ahead tried to get out of the way at the same time Webber tried to pass. he did to it twice, but it's the same thing. If he had held his line the pass would have been simple.

Obviously, there is an argument to every one of these, and I understand that. But they all tie to the basic rule that the faster driver initiates and ensures a safe pass. Therefore, of the pass is not clean, eyes go to the faster driver immediately.

 

[GTlondoner]

1.Try to pass too aggressively - your fault
Attempt to "pull aside" to let a faster driver pass and he hits you - your fault

2.Hit a stalled/spun car on course - your fault

1. contradiction me thinks

2. ever been going 200mph an all you see is smoke and dust and have a driver right up your tail pipe's
throttle or brake ?
no matter what someones going to get hit there

what about when they crashed and pull straight on the track without even looking you try to avoid them but they pull right across the track
still your fault ?

 

[nissman]

I mean come on! Get out of my way!

Thats not a clean race.

 

[Shinzah]

I didn't say I was never guilty of it or that I agreed with it specifically ... just stating that in real motorsports these are general rules, and are adopted for sim racing.

You are correct though ... at the pro level these are often looked at as "racing incidents" and no fault is given. This is becasue most drivers are at the same level.


The car ahead tried to get out of the way at the same time Webber tried to pass. he did to it twice, but it's the same thing. If he had held his line the pass would have been simple.

In the case of the Webber Valencia incident, the lapped car moved erratically and remained in a position to defend the racing line.

That car should have moved either right or left and signaled his move right or left (A luxury we don't have in online motorsport, F1 does)

Instead it swerved and made right, on the entry to the corner, so Webber held his line into the corner probably thinking the driver would pull off the extreme outside since the driver did not signal, Webber ended up colliding with him for holding his line.

That is undoubtably the lapped cars responsibility.

 

[TouringBubble]

1. contradiction me thinks

2. ever been going 200mph an all you see is smoke and dust and have a driver right up your tail pipe's
throttle or brake ?
no matter what someones going to get hit there

what about when they crashed and pull straight on the track without even looking you try to avoid them but they pull right across the track
still your fault ?

Not a contradiction ... 2 completely different instances. If being blue flagged/passed you are supposed to hold your line and let the faster driver make a move. At that point you give them room to pass.

About the spin/stall ... again, consider that all drivers should follow the rules. If someone loses it right in front of you and you hit them, that's not your fault obviously. But, if you are approaching an incident as the smoke is cleared, a few things should happen ...

1: The spun/stalled driver DOES NOT MOVE until the course is clear. If the driver moves, re-enters the course, or especially re-enters the racing line with cars approaching, it should be their fault if a collision occurs.

2: If you approach a stalled car on course it's your move to avoid it.

3: If you approach a driver re-entering to course ... even if they are in the racing line sideways doing 2 MPH ... it's still on you to avoid them. The call on this could go either way, especially if you were being flagged (waving yellow) and had clear line of sight. Basically, you had time to react to their mistake.

Sadly though, without flags in GT, these things get a bit more tricky. Flags shown have a lot to do with how things are called.

 

[mcfizzle]

My opinion is, just because you are faster than the car in front of you doesn't mean you have the right to that line or corner. You have to pick and choose your passing opportunities, not barge your way in. Instead of dive bombing someone going into the corner, why not pass them exiting and down the straight?

If I know the person behind me is significantly faster, I try to be nice in corners and take the outside or high lane to give the inside line to them. Common curtesy I think.

 

[NjLowrider]

Yes if you can't pass clean then wait for a better opening. An one gripe I have is if the game doesn't penalize you for cutting chicanes on monza or the pavement on trial mtn even on high penalty, then it is part of the track and completely legal to do so. Afterall someone else is gonna do it.

 

[Shinzah]

TouringBubble, if you are coming onto a straight and a car is in the racing line doing 2mph, you get up to speed, you don't have a whole lot of time to disect how fast that car is going until an incident occurs.

If a car is in the RACING LINE and is refusing to RACE it is *THAT* drivers responsibility to find his way to runoff, the pits, or out of the racing line. It is not a trailing drivers responsibility. Especially if the car in question is under blue flag conditions or the course is under yellow flag conditions in that sector.

Edit: I realize GT5 doesn't have flags, it also doesn't have pit chiefs or engineers. But the conditions are the same, an incident is a yellow condition, a lapped vehicle is a blue flag condition. According to FIA anyway.

 

[TouringBubble]

In the case of the Webber Valencia incident, the lapped car moved erratically and remained in a position to defend the racing line.

That car should have moved either right or left and signaled his move right or left (A luxury we don't have in online motorsport, F1 does)

Instead it swerved and made right, on the entry to the corner, so Webber held his line into the corner probably thinking the driver would pull off the extreme outside since the driver did not signal, Webber ended up colliding with him for holding his line.

That is undoubtably the lapped cars responsibility.

I'm with you ... but notice WHEN the lapped car is moving. He's not blocking Webber as Webber is following his moves. If he were intentionally blocking, he would be reacting to Webber.

The way I see that incident is that he saw Webber coming up quick and reacted to get out of his way. Webber, at the same moment, was making a move to pass in that direction. The lapped driver sees that he goofed and tries again to move out of the way at the same time Webber reacts to the first move ... all while he's bearing down on the driver at 15+ MPH more.

Webber reacted to the slower driver modifying his line to let him pass ... which the lapped driver should have never done. Even if he'd just made the first move he'd still be at fault.

 

[GTlondoner]

I pull to the outside cause if i pull inside an they turn in its a 100% crash lol
for me going the outside line gives me lots more room and i can take the grass and keep out of the way of the drivers that might be close behind to

and going by what alot of people have said in this thread that crash was webbers fault
right
he is the faster driver right
he is lapping kovvy there right
he made 2-3 twitches side to side same as kov its not so easy to say its anyones fault when both drivers ain't mind readers
and their pros
we're all just gamers having fun or trying to

 

[TouringBubble]

TouringBubble, if you are coming onto a straight and a car is in the racing line doing 2mph, you get up to speed, you don't have a whole lot of time to disect how fast that car is going until an incident occurs.

If a car is in the RACING LINE and is refusing to RACE it is *THAT* drivers responsibility to find his way to runoff, the pits, or out of the racing line. It is not a trailing drivers responsibility. Especially if the car in question is under blue flag conditions or the course is under yellow flag conditions in that sector.

In this situation, if the approaching driver is being shown a waving yellow, the incident could be called either way. The flag should tell the driver to continue with caution and warn him of something on course that he needs to avoid. Since they had prior notice, the incident should be avoidable. That's why it's the faster driver's responsibility.

But, again ... no flags in GT.

 

[Shinzah]

I'm with you ... but notice WHEN the lapped car is moving. He's not blocking Webber as Webber is following his moves. If he were intentionally blocking, he would be reacting to Webber.

The way I see that incident is that he saw Webber coming up quick and reacted to get out of his way. Webber, at the same moment, was making a move to pass in that direction. The lapped driver sees that he goofed and tries again to move out of the way at the same time Webber reacts to the first move ... all while he's bearing down on the driver at 15+ MPH more.

Webber reacted to the slower driver modifying his line to let him pass ... which the lapped driver should have never done. Even if he'd just made the first move he'd still be at fault.

Unfortunately how it turned out, is that the slow car was in the racing line, and Webber held his line since the car was being erratic and the driver did not signal a useable passing line. Webber can't be faulted in this scenario. If he had tried to pass and the driver reacted in an insecure manner again, the crash would have been far more catastrophic.

 

[TouringBubble]

Unfortunately how it turned out, is that the slow car was in the racing line, and Webber held his line since the car was being erratic and the driver did not signal a useable passing line. Webber can't be faulted in this scenario. If he had tried to pass and the driver reacted in an insecure manner again, the crash would have been far more catastrophic.

I agree. The driver being passed should have held his line and Webber made the pass. The slow driver had just as much right to the racing line as it's the faster driver's responsibility to pass. The faster driver alters his line to make a pass.

I know it sounds backward, bit it's that way because the faster driver has more control in the situation. It's a call made for safety. One person, the faster one, makes the decision. If both try to make decisions, we get the Valencia crash.

 

[Shinzah]

In this situation, if the approaching driver is being shown a waving yellow, the incident could be called either way. The flag should tell the driver to continue with caution and warn him of something on course that he needs to avoid. Since they had prior notice, the incident should be avoidable. That's why it's the faster driver's responsibility.

But, again ... no flags in GT.

But your giving ALL the responsibility to the faster driver.

I've been racing in FIA Regulated carting series since I was 8, and even if there is a flagged yellow, any car involved, causing, or slow on course privvy to the flag has a responsibility to be off the racing line.

The yellow condition is there to warn of caution, yes. It is not there to say "If you hit someone its instantly and decisively your fault."

If a slowcar is in the racing line under yellow condition and NO DRIVER makes an effort to change lines, especially the slow driver (Who is slow in the defined racing line) it is avoidable contact.

If the slow driver makes no change to his line and the fast driver changes line and still contacts, it is not avoidable contact

If the slow driver makes a change to his line and the fast driver crosses the same line, it is still avoidable contact

Both drivers have an equal responsibility, however, the responsibility to a slow driver is to be outside of the defined racing line. Any rulebook in any series will back that up.

 

[mcfizzle]

It was all going well until i saw this .......


If a driver wants to retire from a race, the driver concerned must not exit the race. The driver must find a position on the track where the driver will not endanger other drivers, park their car by pressing "start" and wait for the race to end. Keep in mind that your car may start to move when the start button is pressed. Place your car on a position where this movement won't cause any problems for drivers who are still racing.

Whoever thought that up, is in my opinion is nothing more than a control freak

I'm not positive but this may come from Prologue where many people didn't know they were the host and would back out, ending the race for everyone. I think they eventually patched it so you couldn't quit mid-race.

The other part of it was because if you stopped and walked away from your wheel the car would just keep moving at a couple miles per hour and eventually back onto the track.

 

[GTlondoner]

Try to pass too aggressively - your fault

Attempt to let a faster driver pass and he hits you - your fault

how is that not a contradiction
the faster driver has tried to pass to aggressively cause he has hit the slower driver even tho the slower driver has left room lol

so its the faster drivers fault for making the move AND the slower drivers fault for moving over and getting hit by the faster driver

 

[TouringBubble]

I didn't say "If you hit someone its instantly and decisively your fault." I said, specifically, in that scenario, it could be called either way. We're saying the same thing. The slow driver shouldn't be in the line, and the approaching driver should heed the flag. If both rules are not heeded, both drivers are at fault.

I posted "general" racing rules. There is always an exception. But, if everyone follows the "general" rules, there are fewer collisions.

 

[TouringBubble]

Try to pass too aggressively - your fault

Attempt to let a faster driver pass and he hits you - your fault

how is that not a contradiction
the faster driver has tried to pass to aggressively cause he has hit the slower driver even tho the slower driver has left room lol

so its the faster drivers fault for making the move AND the slower drivers fault for moving over and getting hit by the faster driver

Maybe I was not clear.

If you are the slower driver and a faster driver is approaching, you are supposed to hold your line and let them initiate a pass. If they have not initiated a pass and you proactively alter your line to let them pass, and there is a collision (where the faster driver was not being overly aggressive), it's the slower driver's fault for acting erratically.

I've edited the post to state:
Alter your line to let a faster driver pass before a passing move is attempted and he hits you - your fault (added clarity here. The slow driver should keep their line until a passing move is attempted, at which point they should react and give adequate passing room.)

 

[GTlondoner]

I didn't say "If you hit someone its instantly and decisively your fault." I said, specifically, in that scenario, it could be called either way. We're saying the same thing. The slow driver shouldn't be in the line, and the approaching driver should heed the flag. If both rules are not heeded, both drivers are at fault.

I posted "general" racing rules. There is always an exception. But, if everyone follows the "general" rules, there are fewer collisions.

problem is we don't have enforced rules like real racing ( really wish we had the 3 main flags yellow blue and black and the rules to go with them )
so some try to drive real an some are playing NFS style
you don't know who's who till your racing and something bad happens

 

[TouringBubble]

Absolutely true. Flags would be a great addition to GT.

 

[TheBigMan045]

a clean race is where you give the other driver racing room, where if you were alongside them before the corner either take a wider line or let them through, its not as if theres any real reward on the line, so if someone is faster yes ill let them through, then jump in behind them and try following them to see if im faster in another part of the track. Yes i have competed in motorsport, and did alright but like gt5 theres going to be someone faster, or with better equipment (ie a wheel compred to a ds3)

 

[scuudz]

I will never attempt to overtake another driver unless I believe I can do it without any contact whatsoever.

If I am faster than the driver ahead of me going into a corner, and he/she brakes, I brake too so I dont rear-end him/her. It is frustrating, but that is racing. It happens all the time.

I think if you are clearly the faster driver, then you should be able to pass without making contact. You don't have to pass on a corner with a high-risk maneuver. If you can't pass this corner, then maybe you will on the straight, or maybe the next corner.

Just need to be patient.

 

[TouringBubble]

I think if you are clearly the faster driver, then you should be able to pass without making contact. You don't have to pass on a corner with a high-risk maneuver. If you can't pass this corner, then maybe you will on the straight, or maybe the next corner.

Just need to be patient.

This is key to the transition from offline to online racing. A-Spec almost promotes aggressive passing maneuvers. It's a completely different mindset you need to have online to have clean, fun and close races.

 

[Dr.Boss.]

I was racing Suzuka 2 days ago.. 3 lap race, i was in 2nd place for the first two laps, right on the 1st place guys ass. He kept braking too early at a number of the corners. On the final lap, i tapped his rear bumper at the hairpin, didn't push him off track or pass him at that moment - just tapped him bumper (maybe 5mph collision). Finally, on the back straight away i got by him. I had all but won the race and then at the final chicane he cuts both corners, went flying past me, won the race.... and then chatted the text "There is a taste of your own medicine".

What an ass-clown. I can't stand corner cutting. I would have liked to punch him in the face... alas, i am sure it was some insecure teeny-bopper **** who couldn't face defeat. So i said and did nothing except dominate him in the next race (and make no comment about winning).

I've since learned that the Nurburgring Nordschleife is the best track to race online for two reasons. 1)There are not really any corner to cut, and 2) people who suck at racing don't stand a chance on this track. For the most part, Nordschleife servers have highly skilled racers.

 

[GTlondoner]

That made me chuckle DR.Boss
tiny lil tap and you drive dirty HAHA

i really enjoy the race's where i have lil taps an rubs between me and the other driver and we finish side by side in a drag race to the line even if it was for 10th place
just shows that you both can really drive well
but alot of people can't take that and have to wreck you for it