Why Kaz needs to go...

Do you think Kaz should retire from GT?


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1,267
Czech Republic
CZE
novcze
nah, he doesn't need to go, he just needs someone who take care about gaming side of Gran Turismo so he can focus on his things.
 
1,210
Australia
Sydney
I'm going to once more go out of character for a moment and discuss Forza positively. ;)

While I agree with xSNAKEx's opinion for the most part, Forza 4 did get some things right. T10 dumped the flat truck tire sounds of the previous two games, and I believe worked with Pirelli on a revamped tire modeling and some physics tweaks. As a result, sports cars running around turns at high speeds felt properly hazardous, which still feel a little too safe in GT6.

Real car racers quibble about both Forza and GT physics and kinetics, and it does seem that the focus of the Forza engine is taking turns as fast as possible and "one button" drifting, which thrills the kids. The cars load up with kinetic energy when stopping on occasion that seem out of whack, and I just can't get comfy taking turns, though part of that is their choice of camera angles.

Still, both games have gone so far that in my PC sim-console shootout a couple of years ago, both Forza and GT5 felt so much more alive and involved than the GTRs and Live for Speed, and had physics generally on par, which surprised me. I give GT the win, obviously as I'm still racing GT6, and the bots don't make me want to take pliers to the disc like Forza's bots do. I miss Forza's extensive customization and wonderful Livery Editor - you can buy decals on the Storefront! - but hopefully Kaz will finally deliver something in that regard by GT7.


In my opinion its not even an argument when it comes to Forzas physics. Anyone that even thinks its it is IMO is not too bright.
The whole driving in forza feels like you are on a air Hockey table and the cars are floating across it. It could pass as presentation designed to teach young kids about car physics in a nutshell. Here is a track, you glide along with power, here is understeer, now here is oversteer. Ok now play around with the 3. Its fun mixing an matching yay!!
 

Crumpet

Premium
9,825
United Kingdom
Great Britain
nah, he doesn't need to go, he just needs someone who take care about gaming side of Gran Turismo so he can focus on his things.

Confused-Jacksonville-Jaguars-fan-in-stands.gif


I thought "his things" were his very successful company which make Gran Turismo.
 

Tenacious D

GT5 Standard rapscallion
Premium
7,453
Tetsumura / GTP_Tetsu
Nigel Fox
Here I am. ;)
Okay.... how about a little shootout? I have a huge post I've been sitting on of how I wanted GT6 to be, which I'm going to finesse into a GT7 proposal. I know you're all about the sim thing, so you have a head for racing games. Why don't you do the same thing, and we can post our respective proposals in an appropriate thread, or even make a "Suggestions for GT7" thread? Which might have to get an okay from @Famine or some supermod, but we can ask.

Game on? ;)
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
Okay.... how about a little shootout? I have a huge post I've been sitting on of how I wanted GT6 to be, which I'm going to finesse into a GT7 proposal. I know you're all about the sim thing, so you have a head for racing games. Why don't you do the same thing, and we can post our respective proposals in an appropriate thread, or even make a "Suggestions for GT7" thread? Which might have to get an okay from @Famine or some supermod, but we can ask.

Game on? ;)
Wouldn't that go in the GT7 Forum...which doesn't exist?
 

HKS racer

(Banned)
4,802
Okay.... how about a little shootout? I have a huge post I've been sitting on of how I wanted GT6 to be, which I'm going to finesse into a GT7 proposal. I know you're all about the sim thing, so you have a head for racing games. Why don't you do the same thing, and we can post our respective proposals in an appropriate thread, or even make a "Suggestions for GT7" thread?

Game on? ;)
I aready said it hundred of times in several threads in the last 4 years. Actually I don't have an afternoon to spare so I'll be quick:

My Gran Turismo vision doesn't need new content, just a different approach with different features that focus on gameplay.

- 60 fps
- good anti aliasing
- competitive AI
- flag rules
- event editor
- livery editor (on/off option if you don't want to see liveries online. Report button as well)
- race weekend, optional
- standing starts

I can can keep the same carlist / tracklist since obtaining new stuff is a matter of licensing not only personal taste.
I can keep photomode no point removing it if it's already there and people use it. My vision will not remove anything you like of actual GT it adds more features. Higly demanded features.

Career mode will start as every GT with Sunday Cup , Clubman Cup but every car will have series to race with.
I will surely add 3 livery schemes for each car no matter if racing or road car.
I want at least 1 racing series for ALL the cars in the game and an option to turn livery on/off even offline for people who prefer plain body cars.

EDIT: Another very important feature: option to choose cars from your own garage in "event editor" and race against them.

EDIT 2: @Tenacious D would be cool if Jordan himself post in the homepage a post with the most demanded features by the comunity to give them more exposure.
 
Last edited:
4,022
United States
Cincinnati, OH
I don't want to see him go because it was his "baby" so to speak. It was his vision. But, I think he needs to either get his **** together for GT7 or we'll all be switching to Project C.A.R.S. Then he'll care because he'll be making significantly less money.
 
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HKS racer

(Banned)
4,802
Another thing, not very important but still.
About Platinum trophy.
For Platinum you don't have to complete Career Mode.
Since my idea of Career Mode will feature at least a racing series for each car and there are 1200 cars you don't have to race 12000 times, that's insane. You can win Platinum trophy after 500 wins. Races in event editor counts for Platinum and you can gain in game credits as well.
 
With all due respect to Griffith500, the large majority of players don't care about technical details. Whenever I ask people what game has good sounds you know what they say? Forza. Griffith500 has explained time and time again why they aren't accurate but people still persist in liking them (myself included). Polyphony have a similar issue - they spend years chasing some crazy level of audio accuracy all while Turn 10 "just fakes it" and impresses all, bar the 0.0001% of people who know what they are talking about.

Ignorance is bliss. I know the sounds in Forza aren't accurate, but I couldn't care less.

Ah, but if it weren't for the technical insights from Turn10's sound team, you wouldn't think Forza's sounds were good at all, because they simply couldn't be good on any level without it. Also, my technical posts aren't intended to blind, rather to broaden people's perspective, which I admit I probably struggle with (effective communication requires a common language, and I speak my own, mostly).

Remember, these are video games, and are at best* mere facsimiles of the real world - it is all "faking it". The difference is that some people are happy to, or have no choice but to, continue revising the same things over and over to avoid any risk, and others are a bit more adventurous, foolishly or otherwise, in the pursuit for a slightly less fake fake. Such adventurousness sems to have been natural in the field of graphics, but not for sound (in recent history; things are a-changing now).

I likes a bit of adventure, me. ;)


* arguably they're at their best when not aping the real world, but that's another story.
 
Can anyone point me to he old GTplanet survey about GT5 fixes/suggestions please? can't find it anywhere! :confused:
And also he one with the car whishlist survey for GT6 please... Google and the search engine don't help me much on these...
 
1,267
Czech Republic
CZE
novcze
I thought "his things" were his very successful company which make Gran Turismo.

I don't know if "his things" is some English idiom which make you think that I'm talking about things not related to Gran Turismo.

Kaz is very interested in some aspects of GT, but he forgot that he is making game and not virtual showroom and test drive for car manufacturers. I got this impression after watching recent documetary about him so in my opinion he needs someone who can take care about game structure, multiplayer features, etc. so he can follow his passion.
 
692
United Kingdom
Brighton/UK
GTP_janimal
I don't know if "his things" is some English idiom which make you think that I'm talking about things not related to Gran Turismo.

Kaz is very interested in some aspects of GT, but he forgot that he is making game and not virtual showroom and test drive for car manufacturers. I got this impression after watching recent documetary about him so in my opinion he needs someone who can take care about game structure, multiplayer features, etc. so he can follow his passion.

I completely agree with you. Although I think you can tell from GT5 & GT6 that they did discuss game structure with someone. Just not someone who is specifically interested in racing games. Why do I think this? Read on...

Because of GT5's leveling system & GT6's star system. These are classic psychological tricks to introduce a 'reward system' (I mean in a psychological sense, not a straight physical..here you go). Behavioral psychology has been used in game design for a couple of decades and when you know what to look for it is obvious. Things like content unlocking & compulsion loops are all used to manipulate the player into continuing to play.

A decent racing game shouldn't need an artificial reward system, if they get that actual racing right, the challenge is a reward in itself. Think about real life racing - or any other form of professional competition. There are many competitors who never or very rarely actually win. Yet they continue to compete. They do so because the competing is rewarding in & of itself. Winning is the bonus and ultimate goal, but is more often than not rarely achieved.
 
118
United States
United States
El-Cholo
Question is, who can succeed Kaz? If you want to get rid of him you need to have someone willing to take his place.
Give the Forza or Asetto Corza a deal they can't refuse & bring them to GT It's thier ONLY option.
 
I don't know if "his things" is some English idiom which make you think that I'm talking about things not related to Gran Turismo.

Kaz is very interested in some aspects of GT, but he forgot that he is making game and not virtual showroom and test drive for car manufacturers. I got this impression after watching recent documetary about him so in my opinion he needs someone who can take care about game structure, multiplayer features, etc. so he can follow his passion.

I think the concept you describe is interesting. I'd like to see it fleshed out, there might be something compelling in there.

You can't engineer fun, people stumble upon it by accident - unless we're talking about the psychologically enticing practices of certain types of games, designed cynically to seem like fun, whilst actually being completely unfulfilling so as to keep you coming back / looking for the next item of re-skinned shovelware.

If Kaz's "unique" direction should result in something interesting, you can bet other developers will be inspired by it. The same would be true of other games' effect on PD (there absolutely is one, it's just delayed and possibly constrained through their "perfectionism filter" - paint shop / livery editor being a likely example).

That kind of creative cross-pollination cannot happen if everyone is being forced to do the same things. Ironically, forcing creativity into a corner for short-term satisfaction, hurts the potential for long term progress and hence continued satisfaction.

There are parallels with all kinds of addiction in there, the short term gratification at the expense of one's future, I mean. Maybe not so grave in this instance, but it crops up everywhere in human behaviour.
 
118
United States
United States
El-Cholo
Hi there,

it's been 3 months that GT6 was released and the game, for all it does better than GT5, still falls short in MANY areas (OMG that disastrous framerate...the sounds... the car list... the cars/tracks inconsistency... ridiculous online features... still no community update...still no new track... still no track editor... but a constellation simulator, useless GT Vision/adaptive tesselation stuff that takes all the communication momentum... unfinished game lacking VERY important features... lightning at night downgraded compared to GT5... clutch still not dealt properly... bugs...etc...).

I am not even going to point all the problems one by one: anyone who is a regular on GTplanet knows what many in the community think of GT6: the series does not progress (enough).

It seems to me that Kaz, as a producer, has no vision whatsoever about where to take GT next. Just the same old recipe again and again... And if there is "human drama" in GT, it's more inside its desperate community than in the game.

I know for a fact that GT6 is a better game than GT5... but still: there are really infuriating problems that even me, pretty suspicious about PD priorities and Kaz so called "vision", was sure they would be fixed in GT6. I was wrong. Some were (as you would expect). Many were not.

Kaz looks to me like big movie directors who create great series and then don't see when their time is over, don't see that they already said everything they had to say about it. They don't see that they hurt their series, that they turn around in circles. Ridley Scott, Steven Spielberg, George Romero, John Carpenter, etc...
In the videogame industry, he reminds me of Seabass: unable to put himself in question...and leaving PES, once by far the best football game in the world, far behind FIFA today.

At this pace, GT will soon end up far behind Forza (not technically as GT and the PS4 will always crush Forza on XBone) but as a game. It hurts to say that but Forza, by shamefully copying every PD idea, ended up with a much more coherent, consistent and smooth gaming experience. PD should feel ashamed. And when they screwed up with Forza 5 (big time) , Dan Greenawaldt got the guts to aknowledge the problems, apologize, communicate about them, and try to fix it (when he is way less powerfull than kaz... most problems were not even his fault but MS's). you can tell he put himself in question and opened up to fans... When did Kaz ever do that?

What is Kaz's vision of GT as a VIDEO GAME (I seriously don't care that GT becomes a big name in car industry...if that does not make the game any better... I don't care about GT Academy if it does not make the game better...) ? The guy lost track about what makes a good game and what does not... I mean: at this point, does he even care what fans think? Still no official GT forum. Still no official english speaking PR, miscommunication everywhere, ...

And for those who say that it's not Kaz fault if the PS3 is not powerful enough... seriously guys... this is the worst defense ever. Working in a constrained environment is the core of a producer's job. If Kaz did not want eye candy everywhere, GT would have a smooth framerate, great sounds and...yes...probably no accurate constellations. That just shows that his sense of priorities is all over the place.

So now, who here thinks Kaz should leave to let someone else renew the series with fresh ideas and a real vision?

Frankly, at this point, i think it's a fair question.
Kaz is a pioneer if the RACING simulation, for him to go is not a fair ? To ask, he is the one that made us fall in love with the game he brought us cars that we have never seen or knew about from exotic to vintage, from all around the globe famous cars to a stinking lunar lander, still waiting on the Porsches of course wished he bring back the F-1 ESPACE but thats another topic.

Im figuring let him stick to the car selections, models, designs etc. And find someone in the gaming programming, physics, dynamic's expertise someone new fresh a go getter the chess player show him Asetto Corza-Forza & say let's make this but even better.

No need to drop a man who has done so much for us, I remember the first day 15 yrs. ago I purchased GRAND TURISMO & put it in my PS console, I called in the that same day and requested a week off vacation just to play the game I remember it as if it was yesterday and when I finally got the Pennzoil Skyline....Man!! I was in tears with joy.

Long live the "KAZ" but fix the game DAM'MIT!! Go back to the roots & focus on the game & your # 1 priority us the fans the people!
 
@Griffith500

Dam! I did not understand a word of what you mean friend ! :sly:

I feel like you are making this way more difficult than it really is... I mean: what does "you can't engineer fun" mean? There are MANY MANY games out there meant and engineered to be fun...and that ARE fun !

And also: the lack of fun is not the only problem "whingers" (like me) have. GT5 and 6 have huge technical and conception problems that have nothing to do with the series DNA and everything to do with bad priorities. 90% of what we ask would make the game better for everyone. EVERYONE.

We are no even -only- talking about the game's philosophy (that I fail to see btw...) but the very basics of a game's conception.

You know what makes a game fun? Good ideas! Creativity! Just like anything else in the world: movies, books, music, etc...

You can't engineer it? True that. But you can be inspired. And I don't think Kaz has been inspired by GT since a looooong time.

Still: i am not sure I got all you meant correctly so I apologize for any misunderstanding. We might disagree but at least your point of view is not condescending...

Just maybe (too?) well written (for my poor english). :P
 
692
United Kingdom
Brighton/UK
GTP_janimal
@Griffith500

Dam! I did not understand a word of what you mean friend ! :sly:

I feel like you are making this way more difficult than it really is... I mean: what does "you can't engineer fun" mean? There are MANY MANY games out there meant and engineered to be fun...and that ARE fun !

And also: the lack of fun is not the only problem "whingers" (like me) have. GT5 and 6 have huge technical and conception problems that have nothing to do with the series DNA and everything to do with bad priorities. 90% of what we ask would make the game better for everyone. EVERYONE.

We are no even -only- talking about the game's philosophy (that I fail to see btw...) but the very basics of a game's conception.

You know what makes a game fun? Good ideas! Creativity! Just like anything else in the world: movies, books, music, etc...

You can't engineer it? True that. But you can be inspired. And I don't think Kaz has been inspired by GT since a looooong time.

Still: i am not sure I got all you meant correctly so I apologize for any misunderstanding. We might disagree but at least your point of view is not condescending...

Just maybe (too?) well written (for my poor english). :P

I think you misunderstood @Griffith500. He was not disagreeing, just adding to what you (& I ) said.
 
12,075
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
You can't engineer fun, people stumble upon it by accident...

Maybe that was true way back when, when video games were starting out and nobody really knew what would stick.

These days, there's a pretty good library of well established formulae that people tend to find fun. I doubt that it's a coincidence that the same devs keep coming up with the most fun games, and I doubt they're just tooling around until they stumble into a fun concept. They know what makes a fun game, and then they tinker around with that.

There's probably new ways of having fun yet to be stumbled upon by accident, but if devs want to make a fun game they can just use a tried and true method. You're unlikely to make a revolutionary game, but there's nothing wrong with taking an established formula and borrowing the best bits. You see it in every genre, games have certain mechanics and themes in common, simply because they're the most fun ways discovered so far.

I agree that the F2P/addictive type games are not what we're talking about. They feel similar to fun, but they're more psychologically engineered to suck you in than they are about fun gameplay. A truly fun game you play lots simply because you're having a good time.
 
Maybe that was true way back when, when video games were starting out and nobody really knew what would stick.

These days, there's a pretty good library of well established formulae that people tend to find fun. I doubt that it's a coincidence that the same devs keep coming up with the most fun games, and I doubt they're just tooling around until they stumble into a fun concept. They know what makes a fun game, and then they tinker around with that.

There's probably new ways of having fun yet to be stumbled upon by accident, but if devs want to make a fun game they can just use a tried and true method. You're unlikely to make a revolutionary game, but there's nothing wrong with taking an established formula and borrowing the best bits. You see it in every genre, games have certain mechanics and themes in common, simply because they're the most fun ways discovered so far.

I agree that the F2P/addictive type games are not what we're talking about. They feel similar to fun, but they're more psychologically engineered to suck you in than they are about fun gameplay. A truly fun game you play lots simply because you're having a good time.

Yes, I just think there's too much of the formulaic repeating of past success and too little of adding to that repertoire, that's all. There's still lots of tweaking in either case, as you say, which is sort of part of the "accidentalness" I'm referencing. I'm happy with plenty of the slow evolution in some of my favourite kinds of games, I just wish there were more types of games.

I'm not one who believes in the idea of genres too much, at least not how they're usually structured - or maybe the labels are out of date, mis-used and far too vague today. That's what makes so-called "genre-defying" games so interesting. ;)
 

yzfmike

Rookie Racer
Premium
1,009
United States
Lewiston, Maine
yzfmike
yzfmike
I voted no. What other game has as many different race types and series and various tracks surfaces (A.K.A snow, wet, dry, and dirt). There is no other game that has anything near GT. No other game has WRC, NASCAR, SUPER GT, DTM, N24, with various times of cars, aka Muscle, Supercar, K-Car, Minivans, and virtual almost technicaly possible race cars.
 
35
United States
United States
Senail27
Kaz is the most passionate game developer in all of human history. GT is his birthchild that we all enjoy. Every hater would just want and want and want but PD can't give it right away. It's the same with the other developers like Turn 10 and Criterion. All we can do is be patient. That 27km track we all are hoping for beckons...
 

BWX

2,005
I voted no. What other game has as many different race types and series and various tracks surfaces (A.K.A snow, wet, dry, and dirt). There is no other game that has anything near GT. No other game has WRC, NASCAR, SUPER GT, DTM, N24, with various times of cars, aka Muscle, Supercar, K-Car, Minivans, and virtual almost technicaly possible race cars.

What Gt6 does well, it does very well.

That is what makes it so frustrating for fans from the beginning of the series who know how good it can be, and how fun it can be to sit down with a new GT release, and who also know that the magic has somehow been sapped from the last couple GTs. Yeah it seems harsh to want to get rid of the guy who made it all happen in the first place, but with the way things have gone lately, I know a lot of people feel like they're being repeatedly slapped in the face by the guy we all supported over the years.

I'm sure everyone would rather Gran Turismo be fixed, and updated, and brought up to the standards we all know it deserves, but some of us think the main reason why that is not happening is because the guy who invented the game, is now standing in the way of it becoming great again.
 
35
United States
United States
Senail27
Let's not forget that there are some people who started their love of cars throughout GT. It's something really special.
 
12,075
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
Yes, I just think there's too much of the formulaic repeating of past success and too little of adding to that repertoire, that's all. There's still lots of tweaking in either case, as you say, which is sort of part of the "accidentalness" I'm referencing. I'm happy with plenty of the slow evolution in some of my favourite kinds of games, I just wish there were more types of games.

Oh, I agree. There are some game types that get away with rehashing gameplay better than others as well. For example, story driven games need only be competent in terms of their gameplay and mechanics, because the real meat is elsewhere. A game can be completely ordinary to play, but still fun with a great story.

Unfortunately, for racing games traditionally they're almost entirely focussed on gameplay to the exclusion of anything else, so the fun has to come from gameplay. In those sorts of games you either innovate, which is the "accidentalness", or you're just another game.

I guess good developers build a solid base, then screen tons of new ideas for the ones that are really the most fun.

I'm not one who believes in the idea of genres too much, at least not how they're usually structured - or maybe the labels are out of date, mis-used and far too vague today. That's what makes so-called "genre-defying" games so interesting. ;)

The lines are blurring much more than they used to. Pre-3D graphics there were pretty strong limits on what was graphically possible and what sorts of games worked within those limitations. Nowadays, if you can imagine it you can probably have a fair go at doing it, or so it seems. A lot of great games are the results of taking what worked from two "genres" and sticking them together. And most of the best games largely ignore what people might expect them to be, and just do what they want.


GT arguably did this originally with aspects of racing games and RPGs. Unfortunately, the aspects that were so popular then really aren't so much now. Gaming has moved on from what was popular in 8-bit RPGs, but GT is still at heart the same formula. Possibly that's why some people feel that it's dated and needs an overhaul.


I still think Kaz is a perfect guy to have at the top. He's passionate, and from people that have met him extremely charismatic. But that doesn't mean that he needs to retain full creative control. He can be great at his job by promoting GT, supporting/motivating his staff and providing overall vision for what GT should be. Then people closer to the ground can figure out how to best make a game that supports that vision, and whether it's actually possible given the constraints that they know they have.

I remember an interview a long, long time ago where Kaz was talking about the importance of 1080p AND 60fps in GT5. He was mentioning how his engineers were saying that they could do one or the other, but that doing both just wasn't really going to be feasible. And Kaz said that he stuck to his guns, and eventually they found a way. The tone of the article was that it was his drive that pushed his team to make that breakthrough, but it struck me at the time as an example of not really listening to what the people around him were saying. Yeah, in the end they sort of pulled off 1080p/60fps, but it's pretty shaky and it remains so to this day.

I'm sure he has great staff around him, but perhaps he needs to pay a bit more attention to their opinions too. The days of big games being the creative vision of a single man (or woman) are largely over. One person simply cannot be expected to think of everything in a game of this size, and nor should they try to.
 

1241Penguin

Diamond Member
Premium
5,808
Canada
Canada
I voted no. What other game has as many different race types and series and various tracks surfaces (A.K.A snow, wet, dry, and dirt). There is no other game that has anything near GT. No other game has WRC, NASCAR, SUPER GT, DTM, N24, with various times of cars, aka Muscle, Supercar, K-Car, Minivans, and virtual almost technicaly possible race cars.
The content that you listed are just as good as nothing if PD doesn't put them into good use. Yes you have the variety, but what's the point if there aren't any good events to go along with them? The races and events in GT6 are really, really pathetic. No qualifying, AI that deliberate lets you win. It's not so much racing in GT6 as it is time trials (or "catch the rabbit"). GT6 is so far behind other racing games. Even NFS Hot Pursuit II from a decade ago had more exciting racing. It only gets worse when you compare it to PC racing sims. PD desperately needs to step up their game. They're staggering so badly it's unbelievable.

I don't know what sort of racing Kaz wants in GT, but if it's the sort that we're getting now, I would certainly like a different person in charge.
 

Tenacious D

GT5 Standard rapscallion
Premium
7,453
Tetsumura / GTP_Tetsu
Nigel Fox
Im figuring let him stick to the car selections, models, designs etc. And find someone in the gaming programming, physics, dynamic's expertise someone new fresh a go getter the chess player show him Asetto Corza-Forza & say let's make this but even better.
I'm pretty sure that Kaz and some of the team are aware of these sims. While it would be okay to look at those games and try to copy something from them, I'd much rather that Kaz go attend a number of FIA GT, ALMS, DTM, B/WTCC, WRS, Formula 1 etc races, and bring back some videos. Then sit down with the team and say, "Let's recreate this, but more, and see if we can keep it fun."

And again, Turn 10 didn't create racing liveries or the livery editor, they just did one of the best so far. I'd still like to see a better one.
 
5,348
United States
United States
kudos00
Can anyone point me to he old GTplanet survey about GT5 fixes/suggestions please? can't find it anywhere! :confused:
And also he one with the car whishlist survey for GT6 please... Google and the search engine don't help me much on these...
Nah. I no know.
 
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